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  1. #3616
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    They even removed Dick being petty and angry at young jason. Dick not really that kind until after year one solo nightwing, and by that time jason is already dead.
    When did this supposedly happen? As far as I remember, they barely interacted before Jason's death.

  2. #3617
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    technically we have seen that moment before but instead of them working as a team Jason gets frustrated and goes on ahead. New52 portrayed their relationship more antagonistically, they are trying to erase that decade jason was actuly Nightwings archenemy and they more or less hated each other for a long time. They even removed Dick being petty and angry at young jason. Dick not really that kind until after year one solo nightwing, and by that time jason is already dead.


    I liked his little detective moment.
    new 52 didn't portray them as antagonistic. Jason was part of the family in the new 52. Pre Flashpoint Jason was trying to murder Dick and his bros. Didn't he even become a fake Nightwing?

    Jason was def more antagonistic/a foe [not such if I'd go as far as calling him Nightwing archenemy though] before the reboot.

    Then new 52/Rebirth suddenly jason's back in the fold. No mention of the fact that he paralysed Bruce's 10 year son, left his other teen son for dead, tried to kill his eldest or even the fact that he attempted to expose naked video of 10 year old Damian to the whole of Gotham.

    That's why it feels fanfic-like. There's no bridge, no redemption not even an apology. The whole thing feels like ignoring canon and pushing through nonsensical HC.
    Last edited by dietrich; 12-01-2021 at 11:41 AM.

  3. #3618
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    new 52 didn't portray them as antagonistic. Jason was part of the family in the new 52. Pre Flashpoint Jason was trying to murder Dick and his bros. Didn't he even become a fake Nightwing?

    Jason was def more antagonistic/a foe [not such if I'd go as far as calling him Nightwing archenemy though] before the reboot.

    Then new 52/Rebirth suddenly jason's back in the fold. No mention of the fact that he paralysed Bruce's 10 year son, left his other teen son for dead, tried to kill his eldest or even the fact that he attempted to expose naked video of 10 year old Damian to the whole of Gotham.

    That's why it feels fanfic-like. There's no bridge, no redemption not even an apology. The whole thing feels like ignoring canon and pushing through nonsensical HC.
    Not to lessen* the guilt in Jason pre-FP, but he didn't paralized Damian. Flamingo did. Ironically, while Damian was trying to save Scarlet and Jason from Flamingo. Well, I guess he was actually trying to save Dick. but Dick was trying to save them.bandr-vol1-issue06-p15.jpg
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2021 at 12:23 PM.
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  4. #3619
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    Annual was meh.

  5. #3620
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    It was a good-decent issue. I have a lower scale since it is an Annual/extra issue.

    Things I liked:
    - Dick got to show some detective skills
    - Came off as the cool big brother

    Things I did not like:
    - I am biased but I hate the no killing crowbar wielding version of Jason. I miss him being outside the family.
    - The actual culprit was pretty obvious
    - Never really been a fan of Dick getting fired from the Robin role.

    I am looking forward to getting back to the main story of the run. I do not mind Barbara or other Bat-family members in the title because Dick has remained the focus. But between this issue and the Fear State crossover, issue #87 cannot come soon enough.

  6. #3621
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    new 52 didn't portray them as antagonistic. Jason was part of the family in the new 52. Pre Flashpoint Jason was trying to murder Dick and his bros. Didn't he even become a fake Nightwing?

    Jason was def more antagonistic/a foe [not such if I'd go as far as calling him Nightwing archenemy though] before the reboot.

    Then new 52/Rebirth suddenly jason's back in the fold. No mention of the fact that he paralysed Bruce's 10 year son, left his other teen son for dead, tried to kill his eldest or even the fact that he attempted to expose naked video of 10 year old Damian to the whole of Gotham.

    That's why it feels fanfic-like. There's no bridge, no redemption not even an apology. The whole thing feels like ignoring canon and pushing through nonsensical HC.
    They weren't at good terms at the beginning, honestly its almost as if jason chills out at the start of new 52. No longer deranged and a serial killer and we progress from their to present.

    That robin and nightwing scene in Taylors annual is an ocean apart from this iteration in early new 52



    down the road it was still pretty much on sight early new 52. This Brotherly Bond is something built over the last decade
    Last edited by Rac7d*; 12-01-2021 at 12:24 PM.

  7. #3622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    They weren't at good terms at the beginning, honestly its almost as if jason chills out at the start of new 52. No longer deranged and a serial killer and we progress from their to present.

    That robin and nightwing scene in Taylors annual is an ocean apart from this iteration in early new 52



    down the road it was still pretty much on sight early new 52. This Brotherly Bond is something built over the last decade
    I much prefer this dynamic

  8. #3623
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Not to lessen* the guilt in Jason pre-FP, but he didn't paralized Damian. Flamingo did. Ironically, while Damian was trying to save Scarlet and Jason from Flamingo. Well, I guess he was actually trying to save Dick. but Dick was trying to save them.bandr-vol1-issue06-p15.jpg
    You are right. jason shot Damian in the chest. He just meant to kill the 10 year old kid in front of his older brother, he didn't paralyze him.



    My bad. Thank you for correcting my mistake.
    Last edited by dietrich; 12-01-2021 at 02:12 PM.

  9. #3624
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    You are right. jason shot Damian in the chest. He just meant to kill the 10 year old kid in front of his older brother, he didn't paralyze him.



    My bad. Thank you for correcting my mistake.
    Hence the "not to lessen Jason`s guilt" piece of the statement.

  10. #3625
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    I not sure which dynamic I want. I prefer Jason as an antagonist to the bats. He had a well defined niche back when he was a clear foe.

    I also prefer the bats not be so angsty and fighty all the time.


    His current status quo don't track for me because his story is lacking the redemption journey that leads to the bats feeling comfortable to have him watch their back.

    I also feel that current jason isn't all that different from Robin. A batman ally who doesn't have his own city and is working through issues with batman.

    I think early Rebirth RHATO's was a good balance. he wasn't an antagonist but he was so present in the family. He maintained a distance that didn't make him being back in the fold so jarring to see.
    Last edited by dietrich; 12-01-2021 at 02:30 PM.

  11. #3626
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Hence the "not to lessen Jason`s guilt" piece of the statement.
    That statement was appreciated hence the 'thank you'

  12. #3627
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    You are right. jason shot Damian in the chest. He just meant to kill the 10 year old kid in front of his older brother, he didn't paralyze him.



    My bad. Thank you for correcting my mistake.
    It's so not nice looking how some of you get offended by a slight correction. I even said that I didn't meant to lessen his behaviour. Yet you needed to post once again that stuff just to yet again state what? That Jason hurt Damian? Yes, he hurt Damian. He tried to kill Damian? Arguable, because at this distance a shoot like that that aims to kill, kills. But comics are like that, ok, let's asume he did try to kill Damian there. It's supported by Dick saying that they needed to give him some heavy blood transfusion a few pages ahead. But then in issue 3 Alfred says that he really in such a peril and the kevlar suit saved his life fine: just bruised lungs and some blood loose by a severed artery. I don't know. Nothing of this sounds very realistic, but whatever. Yeah, he shoot to kill most probably.

    Let's get to that piece of art you posted.
    Because it keeps being thrown in these threads these days, I've decided to reread Battle for the Cowl. It seems I dislike myself that much.

    Battle for the Cowl, that story in which Dick is broodily doubting himself all over and standing aside, letting Tim and the birds doing all the work with Black Mask and the Arkham gallery plot, and using trauma to capture Jason by hurting him deeply with words and punches (note that Jason taunted him beforehand. but Dick went to Jason with the will. I don't think he wanted to use it that way, after the reread, though). And Damian enjoys having fun in the batmobile like a true rebel kid driving with a girl at his side (until Babs catchs him and he ejects her). And where Jason not only is violent and murderous, he WANTS to be Batman because Gotham apparently needs Batman now in his head and always has despite everything previously pointing otherwise, and even builds an evil lair underground to himself. Because.

    In that scene, that happens at the start of the second issue, we have Jason delivering some awful monologue about Bruces methods and bad example. He also mentions people getting hurt. Dick is finally fighting the bad guys, and is about to be captured when Jason shows up, blazing shoots. He takes care of the guys and run aways. Dick and Damian pursue him. Then Dick and Jason fight, Dick doesn't know who is under the cowl, and Damian enters the fight with all he has with the intention of, at least by word, killing Jason (not that he can do it. He is deal with by Jason). Jason recognises Damian's suit as a league suit and shoots him shortly afterwards.
    This is the context.
    With that, Jason, who I think is awfully out of character by just shooting a kid in here, is proving two points /he gos to the point, by his words): involving kids is dangerous, and Dick isn't protecting Damian or the city (they actually talk about that, how Dick didn't move to protect the city). But the most amusing thing is, I don't think Jason even knows that Damian is one of the good guys here. Because he identifies him as a league member. He didn't tried to kill Dick or Selina. He wasn't going to kill Tim either, until they start fighting serious. And even then, I don't think he really aimed to kill. He seems to leave Tim alone once he takes his pulse and sees he's still alive. The batsuit can take a batarang to the torso. Jason knows that, he's not an idiot.
    So, just Damian. I think he though he was a league affiliated assassin. Or it's meant to be read that way.

    And then, finally, Dick decides to act. Goes to Jason, Jason taunts him with Tim (we know that doesn't work well with Dick. I mean...), they talk again about the cowl and Dick's legacy issues, about Jason issues, they fight, and then Dick uses the record of Bruce's will to even set off Jason further. Which sure will help him in finding Tim. They keep fighting, Dick offers Jason help, and Jason decides to fall down.

    God, what a dissapointment of a book.
    Art was nice. And Tim wasn't bad, which is something I didn't remember at all. Dick wasn't bad either, in the last part of issue 3 (this was pointed out to me before, by godlike. they were right). Damian was OOC half the time, but it has good things, like him feeling more involved with his new fam.

    My point: Jason did some truly awful things before. He killed a lot of people, hurt a lot of people too. But it's nice to give context.

    Edit: I feel awful for such an off topic in this thread. I guess it's kind of related to Dick, but still, I feel I shouldn't have post this long about Jason.
    But I needed to post it.
    I'm really sorry.

    Edit 2: that "thank you" sounded sarcastic. I asumed it was sarcastic.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2021 at 04:07 PM.
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  13. #3628
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I... want... Jason... to... travel and fight international crime... with guns
    Family dynamic... the same that Batman has with other heroes that use the lethal method... that is... go ahead and do what you want outside of Gotham as long as you don't do it in Gotham
    Simon Baz uses guns, but not while he's in Gotham
    Batman only trusts Alfred and Gordon with guns, and Gordon's team by proxy
    Like that
    So he... doesn't supply him with the latest tech, but he's still invited to Alfred's funeral... and... Bruce being Bruce, he still asks Oracle to monitor him
    With Dick, it's casual.
    The three of them are not super lovey-daddy-brotherly... but they're not antagonistic either
    They acknowledge that you're you and I can't change you so let's go our own way, and if you're in trouble I'll help because we are still family

  14. #3629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    God, what a dissapointment of a book.
    I mean, that's the problem isn't it?

    I quite like the idea of Jason as a villain to Dick - an antagonistic Red Hood is much more interesting as a "peer" to Dick who had the same training and same father figure than he is an Evil Son to Bruce - but I'll freely admit I'm not a huge fan of Jason of by himself, so I'm solely coming at this as a fan of Dick.

    I even quite liked the most recent series of Titans!

    But in comics, there's no good example of it to point to - because almost every time they've done it, it's been very poor. Which, after a certain point, starts to tell you something.
    (I liked the Morrison story, but Jason is so much a villain there that it's unsustainable if you want to do other things with him.)

    I quite liked where they'd reached in the first Batman Eternal, where Jason was close with Tim, tense but working with Barbara, still a complicated relationship with Bruce - but obviously and unashamedly didn't give two ****s that Dick was "dead".


    But if things are more nicey-nicey now, I'm happy with things like this Annual back-dating that to show a healthier relationship between Dick and Jason during the latter's Robin days. It's more honest to back and change things than pretend there was this big sea change in everyone's attitude to each other without actually telling that story - it's the most useful thing about the semi-regular continuity reboots!

  15. #3630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    I mean, that's the problem isn't it?

    I quite like the idea of Jason as a villain to Dick - an antagonistic Red Hood is much more interesting as a "peer" to Dick who had the same training and same father figure than he is an Evil Son to Bruce - but I'll freely admit I'm not a huge fan of Jason of by himself, so I'm solely coming at this as a fan of Dick.

    I even quite liked the most recent series of Titans!

    But in comics, there's no good example of it to point to - because almost every time they've done it, it's been very poor. Which, after a certain point, starts to tell you something.
    (I liked the Morrison story, but Jason is so much a villain there that it's unsustainable if you want to do other things with him.)

    I quite liked where they'd reached in the first Batman Eternal, where Jason was close with Tim, tense but working with Barbara, still a complicated relationship with Bruce - but obviously and unashamedly didn't give two ****s that Dick was "dead".


    But if things are more nicey-nicey now, I'm happy with things like this Annual back-dating that to show a healthier relationship between Dick and Jason during the latter's Robin days. It's more honest to back and change things than pretend there was this big sea change in everyone's attitude to each other without actually telling that story - it's the most useful thing about the semi-regular continuity reboots!
    I can agree with many of your points, actually.
    You know? i honestly wouldn't mind if Jason were an antagonistic character of Dick in a story, as far as it is a well written one, who works the antagonistic dynamic well, based on how these characters are usually written. I think Jason and Tim are way more likely to understand each other than Dick and Jason, because how Tim, Dick and Jason are, their good points, and their flaws.

    Or at least, with the characters in the way I understand them.
    Dick has a temper, he doesn't need to be friendly with everyone. Hell, his friends can bear witness of it. There's room for friction and not meeting the eye between these two.
    There's also room for a buddy cop dynamic, too. Without changing these characters into characters that they mostly weren't and their fans can't* recognise.
    And I'm also not against retcons, as long as they're respectful to how readers and fans feel these characters. It's a way to revisit old stories and update them to new audiences, for Dick or Babs, for example. Or in the case of Jason, give him a time as Robin that he barely had because the COIE changes and half of the issues with Batman being about Batman's solo days.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2021 at 06:21 PM.
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