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  1. #1351
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It was a response to you saying Dick already escaped from the Bat-office back in the 80s, which is a comics only thing. It didn't last and the Titans haven't done much for him (comics wise) since then. If you don't care for the Bludhaven stuff, his stints as Batman II and Agent Grayson still did more for him than any modern Titans comic has. The Titans in general can't get out of their rut, to the point where their arch nemesis (Deathstroke) is a bigger deal than they are as a group. Rebirth run was a joke that treated Dick extremely poorly, and the Titans run by Winnnick before that fizzled out fairly quickly. It's hard to replicate the success of the adaptations because the adaptations have the benefit of being aimed at people who haven't read the repetitive comics over and over again, so they can take old stuff and make it fresh.
    If it wasn't for the Titans Dick still would be Robin.

  2. #1352
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    The books saved the character depending on the era. Titans elevated Dick from just being Batman's side kick to being a kick ass leader who can organize a team of super humans into an efficient fighting force and evolved him into his own identity. Then when the Titans fizzled out, the Bat-books helped modernize him, gave him an ongoing and gave him a new direction. The 2003 show introduced Dick as leader of the Titans to a wider audience and still has a strong fan base to this day and YJ gave us a Nightwing who could be the leader of the DCU.

    It's not the Titans fault that they spent two decades under an editorial that hated them and tried to sink any efforts to make the characters grow. :P

  3. #1353
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    If it wasn't for the Titans Dick still would be Robin.
    And that's good, but if the Bat-books hadn't helped modernize him as Nightwing he probably would have regressed back to Robin or languished along with the other Titans who weren't Wally (who lucked out in actually replacing his mentor and getting to be on the JL). The whole reason he ended up back in the Bat-books in the 90s is because the Titans were running out of steam and weren't what they once were

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    The books saved the character depending on the era. Titans elevated Dick from just being Batman's side kick to being a kick ass leader who can organize a team of super humans into an efficient fighting force and evolved him into his own identity. Then when the Titans fizzled out, the Bat-books helped modernize him, gave him an ongoing and gave him a new direction. The 2003 show introduced Dick as leader of the Titans to a wider audience and still has a strong fan base to this day and YJ gave us a Nightwing who could be the leader of the DCU.

    It's not the Titans fault that they spent two decades under an editorial that hated them and tried to sink any efforts to make the characters grow. :P
    Yes, we just need good creative directions in either corner to pick up the slack when the other one falters, but that hasn't happened in a long while. The Titans would have benefited if the title didn't have the magic sucked out of it once Perez left. It is often compared to the X-Men, but the X-Men had Claremont go off to do some of his best stuff after Byrne left and created some other major iconic characters and storylines that keep the franchise going to this day, even when they run into their own ruts. Wolfman didn't really do that with the Titans post-Perez and the Titans have had the misfortune of an editorial that is either clueless as to what to do with them or actively hates them

  4. #1354
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    The Titans are an unmitigated disaster in the comics. They have been like that for a long time and show no signs of changing. As someone that actively hates Bludhaven, and all the retread stories that surround it, I'll still take it and the Batman related stories over the Titans every time because of how poor the Titans are as a comic franchise. Not only are the Titans a disaster but they have not produced any good stories for Dick's character in over 30 years. Maybe longer if you want to get specific. Every time this topic comes up I always ask what was the last great Titans story with Dick as the main focus? No one can answer it because there haven't been any in so long. It just isn't a franchise that is able to support Dick's character and treat him well. He's constantly used as the fall guy or a side character over being what a Batman or Superman are to the JL and their stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    If it wasn't for the Titans Dick still would be Robin.
    I still think Dick giving up the Robin identity was the biggest mistake in the character's entire history. We had a big discussion about it before in another thread last year, so I don't want to do it again, but I do wish Dick had kept Robin for himself since he created it over having the Robin identity get turned into what it is now by being diffused across so many characters.

  5. #1355
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post

    I still think Dick giving up the Robin identity was the biggest mistake in the character's entire history. We had a big discussion about it before in another thread last year, so I don't want to do it again, but I do wish Dick had kept Robin for himself since he created it over having the Robin identity get turned into what it is now by being diffused across so many characters.
    Dick would have never, under any circumstance keep Robin for himself. Even before he become Nigtwing Jason was already using the mantle, there's not a single aspect of Dick's character that is not up for grabs to any random writer with an idea. Starfire kissing Dick at firts sight? Well that's Jason too now, Dick's friends, Dick's enemies, Dick's experiences, all is comunity propiety now.

    Robin was never Dick's to keep.

  6. #1356
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    Dick would have never, under any circumstance keep Robin for himself. Even before he become Nigtwing Jason was already using the mantle, there's not a single aspect of Dick's character that is not up for grabs to any random writer with an idea. Starfire kissing Dick at firts sight? Well that's Jason too now, Dick's friends, Dick's enemies, Dick's experiences, all is comunity propiety now.

    Robin was never Dick's to keep.
    Jason at that time was a Dick Grayson clone basically I think. The original plan for Crisis on Infinite Earths was to deage Dick and make him Robin so the Batman office could use him again, right? But then Wolfman struck a compromise and the Titans kept Dick as Nightwing and the Batman office retooled Jason's character to be the new Robin. So there was a window for Dick to reclaim Robin for himself.

    It's just knowing what we know now with how much the Titans franchise fell off post-Crisis I wonder if Dick going back to Robin and rejoining the Batman office sooner would have been better even if he was deaged just so he could be the Robin in what would turn into the modern age of comics. I know others feel differently but given the lack of any quality stories for Dick in that whole time frame post crisis with the Titans I think it would have. Most of the iconic New Teen Titans stories had already happened before when he was Robin so it isn't like he would have missed out on anything.

  7. #1357
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    That sounds apocryphal and doesn't hold up to what we've seen in publication and in interviews with Wolfman, Perez and the Bat-writers of the time.

    Jason was introduced long before the Crisis. Wolfman began developing Dick Grayson and the Bat Offices agreed to let that evolution continue but since they considered Robin an indispensable partner for Batman, they decided to come up with a new one, hence Jason Todd. Originally, he was little more than a Dick Grayson clone and I believe Dick was still Robin when he was introduced. Post Crisis they got the opportunity to give him a more unique backstory to separate him from Dick.

  8. #1358
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    That sounds apocryphal and doesn't hold up to what we've seen in publication and in interviews with Wolfman, Perez and the Bat-writers of the time.

    Jason was introduced long before the Crisis. Wolfman began developing Dick Grayson and the Bat Offices agreed to let that evolution continue but since they considered Robin an indispensable partner for Batman, they decided to come up with a new one, hence Jason Todd. Originally, he was little more than a Dick Grayson clone and I believe Dick was still Robin when he was introduced. Post Crisis they got the opportunity to give him a more unique backstory to separate him from Dick.
    Feel like there was another interview somewhere where they mentioned talk of making Dick Robin again post crisis since they were redoing origins, but I can't find it. The only one I can find that I remember was the one from Wolfman about the creation of Jason Todd and Nightwing. https://13thdimension.com/behind-the...-of-nightwing/

    So yeah, Nightwing and Jason were both planned at the same time where Wolfman and the Batman office struck a deal for Dick to be Nightwing and for them to create a new Robin to be Batman's partner. I just don't think Wolfman moving Dick to Nightwing and taking him away from the Batman office was the best outcome in the long run knowing what we now know from the Titans. I get at the time the Titans were selling more than Batman then, but the whole franchise completely imploded and it was years and years of nothing while the Batman franchise became the premiere DC franchise over that same time. I get that I am in the minority with that opinion, but those were bleak years until the Batman office got the character back anyway.

  9. #1359
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Well how about a NEW team for nightwing! One not built on legacy or nostalgia, all those things listed above that worked for Dick were all new and fresh at the time. Dick Grayson is a character that moved forward but now lives off the 80s and 90s. With teen titans now being an academy book just let focus on the students with Dick teaching in the background and have nightwing on a new team for the action.

    Also Dick needs to become more relevant outside out Batman fast because the way DC & WB are going Jace the new Batman will start getting the classic nightwing spot!
    Last edited by WonderNight; 05-06-2021 at 07:22 PM.

  10. #1360
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    Well how about a NEW team for nightwing! One not built on legacy or nostalgia, all those things listed above that worked for Dick were all new and fresh at the time. Dick Grayson is a character that moved forward but now lives off the 80s and 90s. With teen titans now being an academy book just let focus on the students with Dick teaching in the background and have nightwing on a new team for the action.

    Also Dick needs to become more relevant outside out Batman fast because the way DC & WB are going Jace the new Batman will start getting the classic nightwing spot!
    DC/WB cancelled Didio's 5-year plan to make Batman Jace and relegated him to a digital first series for an alternate future that's not sure happening. They chickened out the same way they transported Bat Cat to a semi canon continuity work for the same reason, threatening the Sacred Bat status quo. Unless those Jace books sold massive number they're not doing anything for him beyond what they're currently doing.

  11. #1361
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    Well how about a NEW team for nightwing! One not built on legacy or nostalgia, all those things listed above that worked for Dick were all new and fresh at the time. Dick Grayson is a character that moved forward but now lives off the 80s and 90s. With teen titans now being an academy book just let focus on the students with Dick teaching in the background and have nightwing on a new team for the action.

    Also Dick needs to become more relevant outside out Batman fast because the way DC & WB are going Jace the new Batman will start getting the classic nightwing spot!
    Unfortunately, I think we could have had this with Seeley had he been allowed to combine Nightwing with the globe trotting adventures of Agent 37. His first and third arcs were some of the best solo Nightwing arcs we've had. Editorially enforcing Bludhaven on him, when he was upfront about not being interested, crippled the book.

    If Nightwing needs a rogue gallery, he'd be better served having one comprised of villains who can pop up in different locations like him instead of being bound to one city (a rehash of Batman). He should have spent more time fighting Deathstroke, the Club of Villains, Circus of the Strange, Flamingo and the Fist of Cain instead of going up against Blockbuster yet again.

  12. #1362
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Yeah, Dick could easily reuse many elements that Morrison created during his Batman epic that now are not used.

  13. #1363
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    DC/WB cancelled Didio's 5-year plan to make Batman Jace and relegated him to a digital first series for an alternate future that's not sure happening. They chickened out the same way they transported Bat Cat to a semi canon continuity work for the same reason, threatening the Sacred Bat status quo. Unless those Jace books sold massive number they're not doing anything for him beyond what they're currently doing.
    Jace batman isn't about the comics. DC/WB will care far more for black batman over Jr batman for the mainstream all day every day. If they can do that with superman they'll do it with batman also. It only a matter of time before WB push Jace ahead of Dick as the number two bat. Jace will get his solo movie and show before Dick.

  14. #1364
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    There is the copyright thing to consider. Doesn't Batman's expire in a few years? And Robin would only be a couple of years after that. So it makes sense they'd want new characters ready for when Bruce and Dick become public domain.
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  15. #1365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    There is the copyright thing to consider. Doesn't Batman's expire in a few years? And Robin would only be a couple of years after that. So it makes sense they'd want new characters ready for when Bruce and Dick become public domain.
    the way disney is operating no one will loose their copyright

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