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  1. #2116
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Am I the only one seeing tension between Barbara and Koriand'r here ? She's calling Donna by her name but Kory by her hero name of Starfire.
    Because Donna doesn't have a codename. It's consistent with Teen Titans Academy, where the kids call Kory "Miss Starfire" and Donna "Miss Troy".

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I feel like it would've been simpler and more in-character to just send Tim in.

    If they mention that, then fine. But they probably won't .

    Will she ever do it again, though?
    Tim was right there with Babs. But he'd have needed to travel on foot, so maybe Bruce and the Titans were faster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    he stopped blockbuster in two seconds
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  2. #2117
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    Astounded at all the negativity here. For me, this is a great portrayal of Dick Grayson, beautiful art, an intriguing story with lots of future potential, and a nice shoutout to other Nightwing creators in the boat scene in #81. Sure, things can move faster (could have been a four-parter I guess) but I'm enjoying it.

  3. #2118
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrswing View Post
    Astounded at all the negativity here. For me, this is a great portrayal of Dick Grayson, beautiful art, an intriguing story with lots of future potential, and a nice shoutout to other Nightwing creators in the boat scene in #81. Sure, things can move faster (could have been a four-parter I guess) but I'm enjoying it.
    Same here. Just started my account and can`t believe how unhappy people are, especially considering how many bad runs we have had. While it may not be perfect, this run has been consistently good to great.

  4. #2119
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Same here. Just started my account and can`t believe how unhappy people are, especially considering how many bad runs we have had. While it may not be perfect, this run has been consistently good to great.
    Mostly here in this forum, because they want a different approach for his book than what we have right now. I understand some of the criticisms. But the word of mouth surrounding this run is pretty positive overall in other places.

    Last issue was the weakest one so far, but i'm digging the run a lot.

  5. #2120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrswing View Post
    Astounded at all the negativity here. For me, this is a great portrayal of Dick Grayson, beautiful art, an intriguing story with lots of future potential, and a nice shoutout to other Nightwing creators in the boat scene in #81. Sure, things can move faster (could have been a four-parter I guess) but I'm enjoying it.
    That’s all that matters, that your enjoying it. Nightwing is flying off the shelfs so we know many are enjoying it too. It’s a lot fun, spectacular art, I can’t wait to see where we are a year from now. It’s also nice that it’s happening when so many outside projects will occur while the books is running. Gothamknights Titans Injustice Young Justice

  6. #2121
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Great, I am sure it will be an amazing showing of him dying by rock.
    Tom Taylor does write an amazing Dick Grayson

  7. #2122
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Mostly here in this forum, because they want a different approach for his book than what we have right now. I understand some of the criticisms. But the word of mouth surrounding this run is pretty positive overall in other places.

    Last issue was the weakest one so far, but i'm digging the run a lot.
    Generally agreed. Is this the Nightwing book I would write? No. But is it a bad Nightwing book, that is doing damage to the character and getting halfass effort from DC? No. It *is* getting sucked into a crossover, which I'm not fond of, and I feel like Taylor owes us some fanservice and some hyper-competent, super awesome Dick Grayson scenes. But this is a solid book, and the best Nightwing has been in several years.

    Think the last issue did a fair enough job of setting up the secret sister. Nobody comes off bad here, it builds on the circus background, which I approve of. But it also feels utterly unnecessary and troupe-ish. I'm down with expanding on Haly's and Zucco and Dick's circus days; those are underdeveloped parts of his mythos. But a secret sister? Raised by his enemy and now working with the mob? Come on man, a reasonably well written troupe is still a troupe.

    Weakest issue thus far, but it wasn't the train wreck it could have been. Other than the concept itself being kinda cringe anyway.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #2123
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    I've been critical of this run but I think the Romani smile and Dick's dad possibly taking advantage of an abuse victim things are a bit of a stretch. The smile thing was a little weird, but I get that Taylor was trying to show it as a positive thing. Was just poorly done.

    Anyway, this was clearly the weakest issue. Overall my feelings on it are a bit weird. Usually I'd feel upset about the poor story choices, or even vindicated in how I feel like another Bludhaven run is falling into all the old trappings and again proving my position, but it just sucks that Redondo’s art is being wasted on a story that I think has very little actual substance. I get some out there think this is the greatest Nightwing run of all time, everyone can have their own opinions, but I just can't see it as that.

    As for the actual issue I just don’t think the Melinda story is very good. It just feels so unnecessary and trite. All I got while reading this issue is how quickly this will get retconned in the next reboot or how obviously these characters will get thrown into limbo when this run is over, and for Taylor to spend so much time on this run on it is just a poor decision on his part. I honestly think that Humphries small story with Guppy and his father in his run was more interesting and emotional than this. This issue felt even more decompressed and slow compared to the already slow moving story, and it doesn’t help that there is just one more issue until 3 months of some Tynion Batman event I have no interest in.

    It all felt way too convoluted. So Dick’s parents before they were together rescued this Chinese bride that Tony Zucco was abusing and they beat up Zucco causing him to hold some grudge? And in the few months she was at the circus Dick’s dad knocked her up before Zucco somehow found her and took her back but to Bludhaven this time? And then she had Dick’s dad’s child while raising it as Zucco’s, but in the 8 years they were together Zucco always resented her and suspected the child wasn’t his? Why would Zucco even put up with or want this Chinese bride? Why would he not instantly dispose of her or the kid if he didn’t think the kid was his? And this screws over Sonia Zucco’s timeline too now. It feels so poorly thought-out.

    Then Melinda and her mom go back to Bludhaven after attempting reuniting with Dick’s dad before realizing he is with Mary now. So they settle in Bludhaven where Melinda grows up and gets involved with the politics and the mob because of her connection with Zucco, and is now going to be the new mayor of Bludhaven? Oh and she has secret FBI connections and knew Dick was Nightwing all along? Obviously there will be some more twists with her character as Taylor desperately tries to make her interesting, like she is connected with Heartless or something since Heartless is such a non character after 5 issues, but the whole secret sibling plot feels stale. With origins simplicity works best, and to try and jam all this in feels like too much. Way too many coincidences. Melinda’s character and story is easily the weakest part of this run and investing so much into trying build this run around her feels like such a waste of time. I feel like you could have just cut out the Melinda story entirely and just give me a story of Dick’s past at the circus or of his parents. Show how they met and fell in love. That would be way more interesting to me than seeing them used as props to try and build up this character in Melinda that I'm not interested in. I feel like there is so much you could do with Dick's past because it is so unique with the circus setting, but no one can quite figure it out in the comics.

    I’m also never going to like changing the reason Dick's parents died because I prefer Zucco killing them without some grudge revolving around Dick’s dad’s former lover. I liked their deaths being more random because it ties Dick’s origin more to Bruce’s own tragic origin, showing how innocent uninvolved people can be victims, but with Dick he had Bruce there to help him through it which creates a bond between them. That is all you need, but writers get so obsessed with trying to make Zucco into this recurring villain figure when that isn’t the point of his character in the first place. Dick was able to move on from being tied to his parents' deaths and their killer so you don't need to try and keep on having Dick get dragged back to dealing with Zucco over and over. It would be dumb if Joe Chill targeted Bruce’s parents because Thomas hooked up with Chill’s wife or something, and then Bruce had to constantly deal with Joe Chill and his kids over and over.

    Overall this issue highlighted my dislike for Bludhaven as a setting and why I don’t think it works for all the reasons I’ve stated before. Dick isn’t from there, he wasn’t raised there, he has no family there, he doesn’t have any friends there, he didn’t create any of his hero identities there, and so on. Writers are so desperate to try and give Dick some connection to the city because he has none and they will create stories like this. By trying to connect Zucco to Bludhaven and even giving Dick some long lost sister that is going to be the mayor, but it all feels so forced and unnatural to me and I don’t think it will work in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Probably the weakest issue so far. I feel like they could cut half of the in the past pages and still accomplish what they needed to. What’s more I thought the reveal was rather safe. spoilers:
    Dick’s parents don’t need to be sacred or blemish free. I kind of feel it would have been more impactful if John did cheat.
    end of spoilers
    Dick's parents are barely characters. Trying to give them blemishes doesn't really accomplish anything I think because there is no real foundation to put those blemishes on. At the same time I remember you, along with myself, being very critical of how the Court of Owls turned Haly's Circus from a pristine memory from Dick's past into a nightmare. Where even a Mr Haly wasn't who we thought he was all along. So I don’t really see the point of trying to smear Dick’s dad when it doesn’t feel like it would accomplish anything.
    Last edited by Badou; 07-24-2021 at 10:47 PM.

  9. #2124
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I'm re-reading Golden Age and noted that Tony Zucco used to be the mob that owns the town and he even owns the police which is the reason why Batman immediately took Dick.

    Then came Sal Maroni who caused Two-Face's transformation.
    However after Two-Face's origin is moved to before Dick, Sal became the higher mob
    Then of course, automatically, because Batman Year One define the Italian mafia to be lead by The Roman Falcone, Maroni is not at the top. He answers to The Roman.

    Which in turn, made Tony Zucco the third tier, a small bit mob and a bar owner working for the Maroni family instead of the owner of the town.

    Carmine was killed at the end of Long Halloween by Two-Face, but I don't remember if Sal survived. Shouldn't be. Two-Face would've gone after him first before Carmine.

    Zucco was given the electric chair in Golden Age, but released in Post-Crisis after Jason Todd died because he's going to testify I think but ended up assassinated, then in New 52 he's thought to be dead, but Sonia told Dick he's alive and living a new life in Chicago.

  10. #2125
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Dick's parents are barely characters. Trying to give them blemishes doesn't really accomplish anything I think because there is no real foundation to put those blemishes on. At the same time I remember you, along with myself, being very critical of how the Court of Owls turned Haly's Circus from a pristine memory from Dick's past into a nightmare. Where even a Mr Haly wasn't who we thought he was all along. So I don’t really see the point of trying to smear Dick’s dad when it doesn’t feel like it would accomplish anything.
    Your right. Dick's parents are barely characters. So giving Dick's parents blemishes, gives them some character. They don't need to be characterless saints. Dick's parent are dead. Reveling things or flaws about them isn't going to change their needed purpose of giving birth to Dick and then dying. There really is nothing more needed from them, and they are not something Dick can revisit as they need to be dead and inherently out of reach. Haly's on the other hand was Dick's home. It wasn't just a memory but a place and setting. It wasn't always around, but it was never far away to be of use when needed. The Court of Owls reveal effectively killed Haly's Circus as anything other then this now awful place. Not just in memories but in any further use. Its not like were talking about turning Dick's dad into a serial killer, which is more of less the level of what they turned Haly's into.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 07-24-2021 at 11:55 PM.

  11. #2126
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I'm re-reading Golden Age and noted that Tony Zucco used to be the mob that owns the town and he even owns the police which is the reason why Batman immediately took Dick.

    Then came Sal Maroni who caused Two-Face's transformation.
    However after Two-Face's origin is moved to before Dick, Sal became the higher mob
    Then of course, automatically, because Batman Year One define the Italian mafia to be lead by The Roman Falcone, Maroni is not at the top. He answers to The Roman.

    Which in turn, made Tony Zucco the third tier, a small bit mob and a bar owner working for the Maroni family instead of the owner of the town.

    Carmine was killed at the end of Long Halloween by Two-Face, but I don't remember if Sal survived. Shouldn't be. Two-Face would've gone after him first before Carmine.

    Zucco was given the electric chair in Golden Age, but released in Post-Crisis after Jason Todd died because he's going to testify I think but ended up assassinated, then in New 52 he's thought to be dead, but Sonia told Dick he's alive and living a new life in Chicago.
    Someone should do a breakdown in a comic or something about how all the main crime families are set up in Gotham. Like their organizational structure. Like this person is the head of the family, this person is the underboss, and so on, but I guess that would be a bit too mundane for modern comic stories. Where they want the Joker or some costume villain rampaging through the city. I think if given the option I do prefer Zucco being a smaller time criminal either on his own or maybe part of a crew from the bigger families. I think that would work better instead of trying to have Zucco be this big figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Your right. Dick's parents are barely characters. So giving Dick's parents blemishes, gives them some character. They don't need to be characterless saints. Dick's parent are dead. Reveling things or flaws about them isn't going to change their needed purpose of giving birth to Dick and then dying. There really is nothing more needed from them, and they are not something Dick can revisit as they need to be dead and inherently out of reach. Haly's on the other hand was Dick's home. It wasn't just a memory but a place and setting. It wasn't always around, but it was never far away to be of use when needed. The Court of Owls reveal effectively killed Haly's Circus as anything other then this now awful place. Not just in memories but in any further use. Its not like were talking about turning Dick's dad into a serial killer, which is more of less the level of what they turned Haly's into.
    I just think that you need to have a foundation to hang those blemishes on first. So you need to establish how Dick's parents met, how they fell in love, how their relationship is, and the ups and downs in that relationship that would lead to one of them possibly cheating first. Where they feel like actual characters where an affair would actually matter, but I get that creators don't want to do that with Dick's parents because it then takes away Bruce as being the main focus of Dick's family.

  12. #2127
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    If I'm remembering correctly from Detectice Comics #38, Dick's parents didn't didn't even die in Gotham. Bruce Wayne was visiting a nearby city and Boss Zucco had that city under his control. Not Gotham.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  13. #2128
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Someone should do a breakdown in a comic or something about how all the main crime families are set up in Gotham. Like their organizational structure. Like this person is the head of the family, this person is the underboss, and so on, but I guess that would be a bit too mundane for modern comic stories. Where they want the Joker or some costume villain rampaging through the city. I think if given the option I do prefer Zucco being a smaller time criminal either on his own or maybe part of a crew from the bigger families. I think that would work better instead of trying to have Zucco be this big figure.

    I just think that you need to have a foundation to hang those blemishes on first. So you need to establish how Dick's parents met, how they fell in love, how their relationship is, and the ups and downs in that relationship that would lead to one of them possibly cheating first. Where they feel like actual characters where an affair would actually matter, but I get that creators don't want to do that with Dick's parents because it then takes away Bruce as being the main focus of Dick's family.
    Good point there. I know they're trapeze artists and Mary likes robins, but what are their hobbies?

    --

    The structure of the crime families would change all the time too thanks to all the rivalries and gang war.
    One of the oldest family was The Bertinelli, moving to Gotham since it was still a frontier town
    In Year One it was The Falcone, which includes Maroni and Zucco
    Before The Falcone, there were The Calabrese, Falcone's mentor
    After Falcone, it was The Penguin
    In the 2000s, Black Mask won the War Games and became the ruler, until Selina killed him
    Early 2010s, Penguin is at the top, until Carmine's back for revenge
    Later, Selina inherited the Calabrese name and became the boss of all bosses
    After that it seems The Penguin came out on top again where every criminals answer to him

  14. #2129
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Good point there. I know they're trapeze artists and Mary likes robins, but what are their hobbies?

    --

    The structure of the crime families would change all the time too thanks to all the rivalries and gang war.
    One of the oldest family was The Bertinelli, moving to Gotham since it was still a frontier town
    In Year One it was The Falcone, which includes Maroni and Zucco
    Before The Falcone, there were The Calabrese, Falcone's mentor
    After Falcone, it was The Penguin
    In the 2000s, Black Mask won the War Games and became the ruler, until Selina killed him
    Early 2010s, Penguin is at the top, until Carmine's back for revenge
    Later, Selina inherited the Calabrese name and became the boss of all bosses
    After that it seems The Penguin came out on top again where every criminals answer to him
    I feel like there was some kind of crime family diagram in Long Halloween.

  15. #2130
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I feel like there was some kind of crime family diagram in Long Halloween.
    Yeah.

    Oh I thought it's just the Falcone-Vitti, but it's all of them at that time



    Except Zucco since he's only an underling and appeared in Dark Victory

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