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  1. #1066
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Wasn't there supposed to be like some Steve Orlando Nightwing story coming out sometime? Did that ever end up happening?
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  2. #1067
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Edit: Ooh. People brought it up to Taylor and he answered

    "Well, context is important instead of sharing a single panel and ignoring the story, but I realise this is the internet, and context and intent will never get in the way of a good piece of outrage. 1/

    2/ Dick has, historically, put himself out there more in his civilian identity. Bruce has disguised his true self from the public more.
    Bruce Wayne has still done many incredible, charitable things for people. And as Batman he’s one of the greatest heroes."
    3/ And this isn’t the age-old internet argument about Bruce Wayne doing more with his money. This is two people who know him well, discussing how Batman has sacrificed a lot playing Bruce Wayne as a character - knowing he’s done so to protect the people he loves...

    4/ ... But knowing the real Bruce Wayne, is it any wonder his son would like the public to see him as he does?
    Does it really shock people that Dick Grayson would like to see Bruce Wayne lead as well as Batman?
    This is nothing new. This is something Alfred always wanted too.

    5/ In our series, Nightwing has some big decisions to make that go beyond the mask. This is the start of that story...

    6/ I’ll end by saying, it’s okay, Batman doesn’t need anyone to defend him.
    He’s Batman.

    ...Nightwing’s sidekick.

    (lmao he's been saying that since a commenter said that Nightwing is one of the few sidekicks whose title has reached the 70s)

  3. #1068
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    3/ And this isn’t the age-old internet argument about Bruce Wayne doing more with his money. This is two people who know him well, discussing how Batman has sacrificed a lot playing Bruce Wayne as a character - knowing he’s done so to protect the people he loves...

    4/ ... But knowing the real Bruce Wayne, is it any wonder his son would like the public to see him as he does?
    Does it really shock people that Dick Grayson would like to see Bruce Wayne lead as well as Batman?
    This is nothing new. This is something Alfred always wanted too.

    5/ In our series, Nightwing has some big decisions to make that go beyond the mask. This is the start of that story...

    6/ I’ll end by saying, it’s okay, Batman doesn’t need anyone to defend him.
    He’s Batman.

    ...Nightwing’s sidekick.

    (lmao he's been saying that since a commenter said that Nightwing is one of the few sidekicks whose title has reached the 70s)
    So... the book is completely defined by Batman, and Dick isn't even the lead on his title book. Because of writing like these Nightwing never will be on Spiderman's league.

    You can't make a movie about Nightwing without Batman first, because that's how they write him. These are two sidekicks talking about the hero, it's all about Bruce.
    Last edited by Rakiduam; 04-17-2021 at 08:43 PM.

  4. #1069

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    So... the book is completely defined by Batman, and Dick isn't even the lead on his title book. Because of writing like these Nightwing never will be on Spiderman's league.

    You can't make a movie about Nightwing without Batman first, because that's how they write him. These are two sidekicks talking about the hero, it's all about Bruce.
    Well for one, the conversation is about how a billionaire hero is going to use resources, and it wouldn't make sense for Dick or Babs to talk about Ollie first lol. For all we know, Ollie or other heroes might come up on the next page. This page is also about both Dick and Bruce's failings so far, because you know, a good story has to at least have the illusion of character change and growth. You can't do that if you completely ignore the entire background of the character by pretending Bruce doesn't exist.

    The other thing to consider is that yeah, you do have to do Batman first for Dick. He doesn't even need to be on-screen, but he should exist because without Dick's background as Robin, he's just a generic hero character that doesn't have even a comparable amount of weight or depth that Spider-Man has, so that comparison makes no sense. Like, you're saying Dick should have a minimum of 40 years of his publishing history ignored for a movie? That you're talking about a Nightwing movie specifically and not a Titans one just makes that worse, because you really can't do Nightwing without Batman or the Titans. Batman is core to his origin and the Titans are core to his growth as a character, without either you basically just have a blank slate that no one has any reason to care about, in which case, why would anyone make a Nightwing movie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Wasn't there supposed to be like some Steve Orlando Nightwing story coming out sometime? Did that ever end up happening?
    It was a Digital First story that came in that Gotham Nights book, iirc. It was nothing special, sometimes I feel like I might be the only one who remembers that story lmao.
    Last edited by Grayson - The Dark Heir; 04-17-2021 at 09:00 PM.

  5. #1070
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayson - The Dark Heir View Post
    Well for one, the conversation is about how a billionaire hero is going to use resources, and it wouldn't make sense for Dick or Babs to talk about Ollie first lol. For all we know, Ollie or other heroes might come up on the next page. This page is also about both Dick and Bruce's failings so far, because you know, a good story has to at least have the illusion of character change and growth. You can't do that if you completely ignore the entire background of the character by pretending Bruce doesn't exist.

    The other thing to consider is that yeah, you do have to do Batman first for Dick. He doesn't even need to be on-screen, but he should exist because without Dick's background as Robin, he's just a generic hero character that doesn't have even a comparable amount of weight or depth that Spider-Man has, so that comparison makes no sense. Like, you're saying Dick should have a minimum of 40 years of his publishing history ignored for a movie? That you're talking about a Nightwing movie specifically and not a Titans one just makes that worse, because you really can't do Nightwing without Batman or the Titans. Batman is core to his origin and the Titans are core to his growth as a character, without either you basically just have a blank slate that no one has any reason to care about, in which case, why would anyone make a Nightwing movie?.
    Pretty much the point. Peter doesn't need another character that makes him unique, Marvel proved you don't even need uncle Ben, and still have Spiderman. Nightwing is never going to be on the same level. And yeah, why would anyone make a Nightwing movie, when they can make a Batman movie or a Titans movie with Dick (or any other Robin really) in it?

    What is more tragic, his history with the Titans has been erased, changed and co opted to the point is a bat family proprietary at this point. In the 90's Teen Titans manage to make 5 seasons without Batman, The New Teen Tians did whole arcs that had nothing to do with Batman. Now they turned The Titans into a batfamily show, they have made Dick's relationships a model for the bat character and the only person Dick talks is Barbara.

    And with stories as these one that is not going to change anytime soon.

  6. #1071
    Mighty Member Lady Nightwing's Avatar
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    Realistically, you couldn't make a Nightwing movie without mentioning Bruce. He has a pivotal role in Dicks character. That's not a bad thing, as far as I know there hasn't been a Spiderman movie that hasn't been populated with a supporting cast that featured in the comics. Just because you'd have to mention Bruce to establish Dicks backstory wouldn't automatically make him the star of the movie.

  7. #1072
    Mighty Member Avi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I know this is most people's least favorite era of Nightwing but I always thought the Renegade mask and costume was cool:

    [...]

    [...]

    I wouldn't mind if that mask came back either. I actually enjoyed those stories a lot more than some other Blüdhaven stuff. Maybe I would feel different if I had read it monthly, but I thought it used the (guest) characters in intriguing ways. The dynamic between Dick and Roy reminded me of their Outsiders run.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grayson - The Dark Heir View Post
    [...]

    It was a Digital First story that came in that Gotham Nights book, iirc. It was nothing special, sometimes I feel like I might be the only one who remembers that story lmao.
    I remember it as painfully mediocre. In hindsight, it is maybe the slightest bit amusing that it featured yet another Zucco kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Nightwing View Post
    Realistically, you couldn't make a Nightwing movie without mentioning Bruce. He has a pivotal role in Dicks character. That's not a bad thing, as far as I know there hasn't been a Spiderman movie that hasn't been populated with a supporting cast that featured in the comics. Just because you'd have to mention Bruce to establish Dicks backstory wouldn't automatically make him the star of the movie.
    This. I'd even say Dick could appear as Nightwing whenever he wants from a creative standpoint. He doesn't need to be established as Robin first if the movie betrays snippets of his backstory along the way. The majority knows Robin, once the name has dropped an audience can draw their own conclusions without needing a Robin or Batman & Robin movie before it.


    The creative side truly wouldn't be the issue, it's just that DC doesn't want to do it. As has been pointed out not even in the comics.

    I still hope Taylor can do something unique with Nightwing, but for now, it's Babs and more Babs with a few other bat characters sprinkled in. One of them presumably Tim. While I think there is a re-defining of Tim's and Dick's relationship needed (because New52) it comes like 5 years too late or even 10.

  8. #1073
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Of course you need to establish Dick's history in a film, just like you have to establish Krypton or Themyscria for Clark and Diana.

    But you don't need, like, a trilogy of Batman films that introduce Dick as Robin and go through that part of Dick's life, then a Titans movie with DickRobin, and then another Titans movie where he finally puts on the Nightwing suit, and *then* the solo film.

    A movie can establish all of that origin stuff within the first few minutes of a film; Robin grew up and became Nightwing. Done. You don't even need to really show Batman on screen at all to do that. Hell, far as I know the Titans tv show didn't show Batman at first at all, and the cartoons show Dick growing up to become Nightwing without having to dump tons of background and exposition too.

    And again, measuring success by Spider-Man is a mistake; if you're waiting for Dick to become that big you'll be waiting forever. But just because Dick isn't as famous as Parker, literally the most profitable superhero on earth and one of the few truly iconic comic characters, doesn't mean Nightwing can't be or isn't successful. Dick's been showing up in larger media since the 40's as Robin, since the 90's as Nightwing, has a solo more consistently than Arrow, Aquaman, the Titans, and several other big DC IP's, and sells better than at least half of DC's titles. He's successful already, just not "Everyone on earth knows his name" successful. And even achieving that wouldn't be *too* hard, if a good film was made (which, again, doesn't really require Batman or Robin beyond the first few "origin" minutes of the movie).
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #1074
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Nightwing View Post
    Realistically, you couldn't make a Nightwing movie without mentioning Bruce. He has a pivotal role in Dicks character. That's not a bad thing, as far as I know there hasn't been a Spiderman movie that hasn't been populated with a supporting cast that featured in the comics. Just because you'd have to mention Bruce to establish Dicks backstory wouldn't automatically make him the star of the movie.
    What I'm saying is that compare Spiderman to Nightwing is absurd. Spiderman has his own universe, whit a galery of very popular character that orvit around him. Nightwing lives in Batman's universe and DC won't never alow him to move beyond that.

    Right now he isn't even the star of his own book. There's nothing to it, not even a promise that will move from Bruce shadow.

    Higgins tried to expand his scope with the Amusument Mile and Seeley tried to build mithos on his familly. And here we are with Taylor, that has alegedly all the frredom in the world to do whatever he wants, and he is just using him as side character and anchor him more to Batman.

    Eddit: Funny enough, this will come out the same day that Jason may end kicking his ass to get to the new Batman, who is really the important character.
    Last edited by Rakiduam; 04-18-2021 at 07:22 AM.

  10. #1075
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    They're doing that thing. The social media trending view of Bruce apparently not doing anything aside from punching people, connected with Tynion making Bruce less rich, and who knows maybe DC behind him making an attempt to fix his social media image.

    Like this is Bruce's Aquaman Talks To Fish reputation fixing era that they did in New 52.

    Edit: Ooh. People brought it up to Taylor and he answered

    "Well, context is important instead of sharing a single panel and ignoring the story, but I realise this is the internet, and context and intent will never get in the way of a good piece of outrage. 1/

    2/ Dick has, historically, put himself out there more in his civilian identity. Bruce has disguised his true self from the public more.
    Bruce Wayne has still done many incredible, charitable things for people. And as Batman he’s one of the greatest heroes."




    Idk what Perez or Marv looks like so I also thought Didio at first but eventually realized it doesn't fit placing him there
    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    3/ And this isn’t the age-old internet argument about Bruce Wayne doing more with his money. This is two people who know him well, discussing how Batman has sacrificed a lot playing Bruce Wayne as a character - knowing he’s done so to protect the people he loves...

    4/ ... But knowing the real Bruce Wayne, is it any wonder his son would like the public to see him as he does?
    Does it really shock people that Dick Grayson would like to see Bruce Wayne lead as well as Batman?
    This is nothing new. This is something Alfred always wanted too.

    5/ In our series, Nightwing has some big decisions to make that go beyond the mask. This is the start of that story...

    6/ I’ll end by saying, it’s okay, Batman doesn’t need anyone to defend him.
    He’s Batman.

    ...Nightwing’s sidekick.

    (lmao he's been saying that since a commenter said that Nightwing is one of the few sidekicks whose title has reached the 70s)
    That sounds better. I mean, I don't know if Bruce being more genuine in public would make that much of a difference, his intentions are generally genuine, but I can see where Dick is coming from.

  11. #1076

  12. #1077
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    After reading the issue, I feel like Taylor got a lot of his inspiration from Kyle Higgin’s run.

  13. #1078
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    I'd be ok with Dick talking about Bruce and money if at the same time we didn't have Tynion doing his "Batman is too rich" thing. So you know, you might talk about character motivations, but I think at this point it is clear that this is bigger "meta story" that Tynion, Taylor (maybe) and some editors want to tackle. And I don't care about it.

  14. #1079
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    "Dick has been hanging around Bludhaven for the longest time, but the city has rarely felt as authentically gritty and challenging as it does here. Usually it’s portrayed as a caricature of a mobbed-up city, and crime bosses like the notorious Boss Maroni are present, but Taylor wisely focuses here on the people left behind and abandoned by the city." - Ray, Geekdad

  15. #1080
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Yeah I guess. Its just if dick is living in a city that's gritty and has other bat characters running around why isn't he just in gotham . What becomes the point of bludhaven?

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