Dick Grayson: Robin/ Nightwing/ Agent 37 Appreciation 2021

[Restingvoice]

DC might not, but as fans who read the stories, we should. We are getting A list teams which is what matters.

Nightwing will always participate in Batfamily crossovers. He is Batfamily. So it sounds like that quote from Detective Comics is more a problem for that book. Him being involved is never going to change. The Bat family are a family. It makes sense they visit Bludhaven. Especially since they have not been disruptive to the story and do not have books of their own. The only thing Taylor needs to focus on is delivering a good book every month. That`s it.

Fans do care about good stories, that's why there's criticism on Taylor's work.

Why? Why can't it changed? Like I said, he has his own responsibility. I'm not saying he can't go to Gotham, I'm saying he shouldn't when he has his own villains taking hearts literally from people. You want good story? I want good story too. That means make it make sense. Why should he go to Gotham instead of finding Heartless? Why can't it just be Barbara and Tim and have them show up in Batman and Detective?

These books don't exist on their own. They're part of a family book, and all these authors under the same editorial know where the stories are gonna go. That means if they know that Dick's gonna be required to go to Gotham, then they shouldn't take their time and arrest Heartless before Dick has to go back to Gotham.

[Iclifton]

Fans do care about good stories, that's why there's criticism on Taylor's work.

Why? Why can't it changed? Like I said, he has his own responsibility. I'm not saying he can't go to Gotham, I'm saying he shouldn't when he has his own villains taking hearts literally from people. You want good story? I want good story too. That means make it make sense. Why should he go to Gotham instead of finding Heartless? Why can't it just be Barbara and Tim and have them show up in Batman and Detective?

These books don't exist on their own. They're part of a family book, and all these authors under the same editorial know where the stories are gonna go. That means if they know that Dick's gonna be required to go to Gotham, then they shouldn't take their time and arrest Heartless before Dick has to go back to Gotham.

Why does Bruce work with the Justice League when he has a case? Because thats the nature of comics. The reviews and feedback for this run has been overwhelmingly positive. The thing is, most(not all) who do not like this run whatsoever, do not like it strictly because it is set in Bludhaven or because Dick is a Batfamily member. It will never change, because like it or not that's the appeal. His history, the legacy of being the full grown first Robin. He will always be batfamily. Always and forever. No chance this will change. This just goes to show goes to show that many of the haters expectations are completely unrealistic.

The guy has TWO amazing teams (Robin and Batman, Nightwing) and is in a ton of books. DC is putting a ton behind Nightwing comic wise. How this is not a positive time for the brand is beyond me.

[Rac7d*]

Cause Gotham’s got enough characters. Bludhaven’s the compromise of having him claim his own space, which fits with the core motivation behind the persona of Nightwing, while still being Batman accessible. They did Nightwing in Gotham, it wasn’t any better. It’s was no more bold or anti-Batman lite.

If that’s how it seems to you, alright. That stuff is there to make readers feel comfortable again. Something that was needed after Ric. Sure that might not be what everybody wants but it accomplishes that function in a general sense. The important stuff with this run though is the character work, as that’s where the essence here lies. It’s a character piece. Exploring and highlighting the character of Nightwing. Being in Bludhaven isn’t invalidating the character work being done here.

Gotham has an abundance of heroes some of them should be bleeding though to Bludhaven.
To think that as many as 15 heroes are deployed in Gotham, not counting I’m between types like Harley and Catwoman

[Restingvoice]

Why does Bruce work with the Justice League when he has a case? Because thats the nature of comics. The reviews and feedback for this run has been overwhelmingly positive. The thing is, most(not all) who do not like this run whatsoever, do not like it strictly because it is set in Bludhaven or because Dick is a Batfamily member. It will never change, because like it or not that's the appeal. His history, the legacy of being the full grown first Robin. He will always be batfamily. Always and forever. No chance this will change. This just goes to show goes to show that many of the haters expectations are completely unrealistic.

The guy has TWO amazing teams (Robin and Batman, Nightwing) and is in a ton of books. DC is putting a ton behind Nightwing comic wise. How this is not a positive time for the brand is beyond me.

Batman and League are not made to crossovers and they are not made to have to follow the other's story, so I can arrange them to happen before or after and not at the same time, and even if they do, Batman has enough army in Gotham to make it believable that he can leave and Gotham will be fine. As fine as Gotham can be anyway. Especially since the League has a teleporter.

On top of that the League problem tend to be worldwide so there's priority, while Gotham and Bludhaven are both cities. One is not more important than the other.

I also already pointed out that I want someone in Bludhaven that is not a Bat fam, because they will be called to crossover as well, to make it believable that Nightwing can leave... or a scene where he calls Titans.

[Iclifton]

Batman and League are not made to crossovers and they are not made to have to follow the other's story, so I can arrange them to happen before or after and not at the same time, and even if they do, Batman has enough army in Gotham to make it believable that he can leave and Gotham will be fine. Especially since the League has a teleporter. On top of that the League problem tend to be worldwide so there's priority, while Gotham and Bludhaven are both cities. One is not more important than the other.

I also already pointed out that I want someone in Bludhaven that is not a Bat fam, because they will be called to crossover as well, to make it believable that Nightwing can leave... or a scene where he calls Titans.

Yes but at the end of the day batman is in more books than Nightwing and he is Batfamily so it is plausible he would help. In story he is going to spend one night in Gotham to help with an emergency. Should he have said "no, sorry I cant help you guys today. I am busy searching for a guy I have no leads on and have only seen once. Sucks people might die in Gotham but hey, not my city." This is a ridiculous complaint. I am bummed we are spending three issues on this, yes. But it does not reflect badly on Dick. I'm sure in story there are a ton of loose villains in Gotham Bruce knows about while helping the League. So what your saying is your mad because this crossover does not play into your headcanon the way other characters crossovers do.

Nightwing fans are more critical than any other fan base I have ever seen. Some of the weakest and most nitpicky complaints. If Bruce himself were held to these standards, every story would suck. DC can do no right short of retiring Batman and having Nightwing be the face of the company.

[Daedalus]

This is a weird discussion. Bludhaven is what, 20 minutes away from Gotham? It's basically a suburb in the same metropolitan area. It's the Jersey City of DC Comics. This is made clear by the ease with which the Batfamily crosses over between them.

Dick Grayson is a part of the Batfamily and Batman's cast of characters, and shall always be. He is an extremely important character in that cast, but he'll always operate within that cast of characters. Every comicbook character has a cast of supporting characters, and they're integral to the book as well. I don't hear the people in the Superman forums asking to kill off Lois Lane.

It doesn't matter that he'll spend 3 issues on the yearly-mandatory Batevent, as long as he comes back to good stories. And it seems that Nightwing's portion of the Fear State story will be contained within Nightwing's title, which is a best possible scenario.

I think we can all agree that this is an A-list Team industry-wise, and that both reviews and sales have been stellar. Nightwing is more prominent in comicbooks than he has been in years. Yes, it features classic supporting characters in a classic location. So do 99% of comicbook runs, including some of the most acclaimed stories of all time.

I'm sorry for those who are not enjoying the run. I'm having a blast.

[Rac7d*]

This is a weird discussion. Bludhaven is what, 20 minutes away from Gotham? It's basically a suburb in the same metropolitan area. It's the Jersey City of DC Comics. This is made clear by the ease with which the Batfamily crosses over between them.

Dick Grayson is a part of the Batfamily and Batman's cast of characters, and shall always be. He is an extremely important character in that cast, but he'll always operate within that cast of characters. Every comicbook character has a cast of supporting characters, and they're integral to the book as well. I don't hear the people in the Superman forums asking to kill off Lois Lane.

It doesn't matter that he'll spend 3 issues on the yearly-mandatory Batevent, as long as he comes back to good stories. And it seems that Nightwing's portion of the Fear State story will be contained within Nightwing's title, which is a best possible scenario.

I think we can all agree that this is an A-list Team industry-wise, and that both reviews and sales have been stellar. Nightwing is more prominent in comicbooks than he has been in years. Yes, it features classic supporting characters in a classic location. So do 99% of comicbook runs, including some of the most acclaimed stories of all time.

I'm sorry for those who are not enjoying the run. I'm having a blast.

That is what matter, the book is well recevied and performing well all with a prioritized top notch writer

Which must be frustrating to those who wanted change since everything as of right now will prevent that.

anyway

[Restingvoice]

Yes but at the end of the day batman is in more books than Nightwing and he is Batfamily so it is plausible he would help. In story he is going to spend one night in Gotham to help with an emergency. Should he have said "no, sorry I cant help you guys today. I am busy searching for a guy I have no leads on and have only seen once. Sucks people might die in Gotham but hey, not my city." This is a ridiculous complaint. I am bummed we are spending three issues on this, yes. But it does not reflect badly on Dick. I'm sure in story there are a ton of loose villains in Gotham Bruce knows about while helping the League. So what your saying is your mad because this crossover does not play into your headcanon the way other characters crossovers do.

Nightwing fans are more critical than any other fan base I have ever seen. Some of the weakest and most nitpicky complaints. If Bruce himself were held to these standards, every story would suck. DC can do no right short of retiring Batman and having Nightwing be the face of the company.

Sucks that people die in Bludhaven so him going to Gotham when it has already so many heroes is a ridiculous defense.
It is ridiculous that he can't stay in his own city, protecting the city he wants to protect, when there's Babs and Tim that can go to Gotham or already in Gotham.

It's so much simpler than that. You're asking why people can't enjoy the run, I gave you a reason why, I even gave a solution, because the answer is that simple.

This is a weird discussion. Bludhaven is what, 20 minutes away from Gotham? It's basically a suburb in the same metropolitan area. It's the Jersey City of DC Comics. This is made clear by the ease with which the Batfamily crosses over between them.

Dick Grayson is a part of the Batfamily and Batman's cast of characters, and shall always be. He is an extremely important character in that cast, but he'll always operate within that cast of characters. Every comicbook character has a cast of supporting characters, and they're integral to the book as well. I don't hear the people in the Superman forums asking to kill off Lois Lane.

It doesn't matter that he'll spend 3 issues on the yearly-mandatory Batevent, as long as he comes back to good stories. And it seems that Nightwing's portion of the Fear State story will be contained within Nightwing's title, which is a best possible scenario.

I think we can all agree that this is an A-list Team industry-wise, and that both reviews and sales have been stellar. Nightwing is more prominent in comicbooks than he has been in years. Yes, it features classic supporting characters in a classic location. So do 99% of comicbook runs, including some of the most acclaimed stories of all time.

I'm sorry for those who are not enjoying the run. I'm having a blast.

No, this is a justified discussion because if you want me to enjoy the story, it needs to be immersive. It's not for me, at least for that particular point.

and both of you repeating the same "it's bat family so it should cross"
Marketing, fine, which is why, I said it again. All I want is simple. Really simple I said it three times already.

If he has to be in a crossover:

Either finish the story before going into a crossover
or
Have somebody else, preferably native Bludhaven hero because then they won't be pulled into a Bat crossover, so the city can be in good hands, or at least believable enough, to me, the reader trying to enjoy the story, that it's guarded.

That's it. If there's one panel at the beginning of crossover where Oracle have Donna or someone patrolling Bludhaven while Dick leaves, then it's problem solved for me.

This is why I have no problem with Seeley's first story before going over to Night of Monster Men, because he finished his first arc.

==

Also why are you trying to justify it by Bludhaven being in close proximity with Gotham? If that's the case, why even move to Bludhaven? Just stay in Gotham. Then I don't have to suspend my disbelief.

===

Also also, Idk about Nightwing fans, but I personally quit reading Action Comics, Justice League, and Aquaman after just 6-12 issues because they can't keep things consistent, so you just happen to the talking to the wrong person if you want someone to be satisfied with "just good stories" (which I assume to mean each series on its)

I can't do that

They're selling me shared universe, I'm viewing it as shared universe

[Lal]

I have an alternative solution -

Let the bat-editors use Nightwing in the event any way they want, as long as they leave his book out of it.

So let him appear in the event with the batgirls, lead the Robins, whatever. Do it in Urban legends or Tec, or anywhere else they want, and I'll read it as long as he's given a cool role, but let me also enjoy his book in peace and without interruptions.

We can always say that the event was just before / later/ whatever, and after the event is over it could still affect his books (if Batman is leaving Gotham or if Dick is facing his love to Babs or whatever).

[Godlike13]

Nightwing doesn’t sell enough to be left out of crossovers. It’s one of the few ways they can stem deflation for a couple months and inject sales into books. If they couldn’t make that crossover nut with Ric Nightwing wouldn’t have even made it to Taylor. And that goes for most of the Batline. It’s why Batman has a line and a lot of fan favorite wouldn’t have books if not so the can do crossovers with them and make that crossover nut. That’s Christmas time for DC and comics shops. You guys can be annoyed by crossovers, but no one here should be so unfamiliar with the workings. Crossovers are the readers fault. A marketing tool DC pretty much has to use because it’s a proven way they can generate sales.

[Lal]

Nightwing doesn’t sell enough to be left out of crossovers. It’s one of the few ways they can stem deflation for a couple months and inject sales into books. If they couldn’t make that crossover nut with Ric Nightwing wouldn’t have even made it to Taylor. You guys can be annoyed by crossovers, but no one here should be so unfamiliar with the workings. Crossovers are the readers fault. A marketing tool DC pretty much has to use because it’s a proven way they can generate sales.

Overall, I would agree with you (especially regarding the Ric saga and the Joker war event). But Nightwing currently does sell enough to avoid crossovers. He sells more than Robin, who was left out of this crossover (or so it seems).

Don't get me wrong, I do want to see Nightwing in Gotham and interacting with the batfamily. That's actually how I came to know him - in Batman's book. But since this event doesn't really demand readers to actually read the Nightwing subplot to understand what is going on (it's not like it's part 4 of 6, with the rest being told in different books), would it really boost sales? We'll find out.

Right now it seems that Harley and Catwoman need this event more than Nightwing.

[Godlike13]

Except is doesn’t. Remember Nightwing was selling like shit. They didn’t know how well Taylor’s run was gonna do, and even still unless Nightwing is selling on par with Batman. They are leaving money on the table by having him avoid it. Robin wasn’t left out because of sales, if I had to guess it was left out because of its later start. Personally speaking I don’t care if Nightwing is in Gotham and as we are seeing he doesn’t need a crossover to interact with the batfamily. What’s more I don’t even think Fear State seems like an interesting story. But I want a Nightwing series, and I hold no illusions on how Nightwing performs in the market and the necessities needed to keep the lights on.

[Aahz]

Robin wasn’t left out because of sales, if I had to guess it was left out because of its later start.

It might also be because they had green lit a Storyline for Robin, that doesn't really allow him to show up for a cross over in Gotham.

"Grayson" was iirc also left out of some crossovers.

With Nightwing on the other hand it is not that much of a problem story wise, what Taylor is anyway taking a lot of time to tell his story, and there he has anyway constantly other Batfamily characters as guest in his book.

[Lal]

Except is doesn’t. Remember Nightwing was selling like shit. They didn’t know how well Taylor’s run was gonna do, and even still unless Nightwing is selling on par with Batman. They are leaving money on the table by having him avoid it. Robin wasn’t left out because of sales, if I had to guess it was left out because of its later start. Personally speaking I don’t care if Nightwing is in Gotham and as we are seeing he doesn’t need a crossover to interact with the batfamily. What’s more I don’t even think Fear State seems like an interesting story. But I want a Nightwing series, and I hold no illusions on how Nightwing performs in the market and the necessities needed to keep the lights on.

Well, first, Robin started in April, Nightwing started in March. It's a one-month headstart, unlikely to explain why Robin isn't in the event and Nightwing is.

But do events really improve sales so much? Not sure, let's look at the data.

Since it's tricky to look at Nightwing last year (as he was involved in the event from issue 70 or so), let's look at Catwoman instead, prior to the event.

June 2020 - issue 22 - number 37 in sales, with an order index of 70 compared to comichorn's order index.
July 2020 - issue 23 - number 43 in sales, with an order index of 103.
August 2020 - issue 24 - number 65 in sales, with an order index of 69.
September 2020 - issue 25, finally the great tie-in with the joker war event! - number 56 in sales, an average of about *33,000* books sold.
October 2020 - issue 26 - not really a tie-in book (although influenced by what happened in the event), number 32 in sales - an average of 47,000 books sold.

So... do we really need an event to sell a total of 33,000 copies? Am I missing something? Or is it possible that tie-ins that don't really affect the main story don't sell as much as tie-ins that are crucial to understanding the main plot?

[Godlike13]

Well 25 and 26 were both collateral damage tie ins, but note the dollar rank difference between August and September. Tie-ins sell. Events are an important part of the Bat line operations, and a proven way to increase sales. Why do you think they'd do them if it didn't work.