Dick Grayson: Robin/ Nightwing/ Agent 37 Appreciation 2021

[Restingvoice]

We don't know if Jason will beat up Dick but even if he does the story is set 10 years in the future. It took Dick less than 10 years since his adulthood to be able to beat Bruce. I get about branding but if it makes sense I don't have a problem with it.

[Badou]

I just don't understand that mindset. That you need to backtrack so far again just because Ric was bad. No on really cares in the end I think. All you need is a new creative team, an interesting direction, a bit of marketing, and you are all set. So the idea that because Ric was awful that you have to dig up more Dixon nostalgia out of some kind of panic by hitting a reset button just feels weird to me. This is the 4th time we've sat through the Blockbuster and Bludhaven dance number and the idea that this time it will be different and somehow elevate Dick's character to some kind of A-list or something feels like wishful thinking. Blockbuster will never be the kind of antagonist that will take Dick's character to where his fans want him to be, imo.

I mean if they felt that the property was broken so badly then they would have relaunched the title with a new #1 to move the character away from Ric, but they didn't. I have no idea why they didn't as it will just cost the title tens of thousands of sales probably. It isn't like this random issue #78 means anything. Maybe if they took the title back to its legacy numbering in the high 200s it would make more sense, but they didn't even do that.

[Arsenal]

We also don't know the context of the fight or the circumstances of the L.

For all we know Dick loses because he threw the fight to keep up appearances/avoid exposing an ongoing operation.

[Restingvoice]

I just don't understand that mindset. That you need to backtrack so far again just because Ric was bad. No on really cares in the end I think. All you need is a new creative team, an interesting direction, a bit of marketing, and you are all set. So the idea that because Ric was awful that you have to dig up more Dixon nostalgia out of some kind of panic by hitting a reset button just feels weird to me. This is the 4th time we've sat through the Blockbuster and Bludhaven dance number and the idea that this time it will be different and somehow elevate Dick's character to some kind of A-list or something feels like wishful thinking. Blockbuster will never be the kind of antagonist that will take Dick's character to where his fans want him to be, imo.

I mean if they felt that the property was broken so badly then they would have relaunched the title with a new #1 to move the character away from Ric, but they didn't. I have no idea why they didn't as it will just cost the title tens of thousands of sales probably. It isn't like this random issue #78 means anything. Maybe if they took the title back to its legacy numbering in the high 200s it would make more sense, but they didn't even do that.

Wait, fourth? What's the second?

[Badou]

Wait, fourth? What's the second?

I'd count Dixon and Grayson's runs are two different ones. So Dixon, Grayson, Seeley, and now Taylor.

[Avi]

Sure, we don't know if Jason will mow through the bats. But there is a reason why it's expected. The first arc of FS Gotham is a Jason Todd arc. When there is no Bruce in the way, it’s not unusual that he wins against the others or gets away on his own terms.

I don’t expect Nightwing to always win, but I remember everyone rejoicing when he got to beat-up KGBeast in Nightwing. No one expected that harsh and quick of a beat-down, and that's when there is a problem.

I think Dick losing against Jace in hand-to-hand combat was bad timing. It made sense under the conditions Constant introduced but after Ric it's a bad look. And then two months later the Issue that has been praised as such a stand-out reintroduction and new beginning shows Dick getting thrown across his room. Dick in his Nightwing suit, expecting an intruder, getting thrown across his room by Barbara in civil to smack against the wall with no preservation instinct in any bone of his body. For comic relief. Yep, that just ain’t it.

I am honestly a bit worried about the direction of the run. Yeah, Didio is gone, but at least with Rebirth, we knew Seeley would get past Dixon. In fact, the real Dixon-esque content only came after Raptor. Taylor hasn't really revealed anything as concrete as Seeley did back then. All Taylor has said is that Dick is this great hero, and he keeps comparing his run to his Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man. That's not really informative.

The only specific story points he gave away in the only interview back in December as part of his big story are Blüdhaven, Barbara, and Zucco. Which I hope is merely the first arc, but who knows. I'm pretty sure Zucco is gonna be a long-term addition.

[Rakiduam]

....Dick losing a fight isn't really detrimental to the brand, that's not where the abuse is happening; the lack of investment, autonomy, and positive character development/world building is where the abuse is happening. And if we can believe DC and Taylor, that sh*t ended when Didio got canned and we're just now catching up with that change in focus.....

It's a matter of show not tell, and it's not showing. They can say whatever they want but they are doing the same thing they have always done, starting with getting Nighwing beatten up for the benefit of other bats.

We don't know if Jason will beat up Dick but even if he does the story is set 10 years in the future. It took Dick less than 10 years since his adulthood to be able to beat Bruce. I get about branding but if it makes sense I don't have a problem with it.

I don't think Jason losing is any better, I prefer Dick doesn't get his ass handed to him again, sure, but mostly I can't believe that is 2021 and Jason is still fighting the bat family.

How DC keep the bat characters circling the same stories with to no end in sight is absurd, but then you see the reception and it seem to be what people want, the same relationships, the same dynamics, the same villians .... just change the suits every now and then and you are golden. I can't believe Dick's storyline still revolve around Zucco and Barbara Gordon and people are excited about it.

Jase, Babs, Jason...I assume by August it will be Tim puting Nightwing in the floor. Bat characters are bad for each other, even when they cooperate one is getting jobbed for the other.

[Restingvoice]

How DC keep the bat characters circling the same stories with to no end in sight is absurd, but then you see the reception and it seem to be what people want, the same relationships, the same dynamics, the same villians .... just change the suits every now and then and you are golden. I can't believe Dick's storyline still revolve around Zucco and Barbara Gordon and people are excited about it.

with how the stories changed at DC I'm not surprised. People liked Dixon's run, then Devin Grayson murdered everyone, get Dick and Babs engaged, then Didio murdered everyone. For those who like those, it's like the story just stops, and now it's continued.

I mean Dick Kori fans still seething about the cancelled marriage in the early 90s. Some of them still blaming Babs. Then with 2003 Teen Titans, 2018 Titans, and now this



People are grasping at breadcrumbs like the mouths of Koi in Asian freshwater fish restaurant pond (that is a way longer and very specific analogy than I thought and I'm sorry but I don't know if you got those in America)

Like I'm serious. I saw Dick Kori fans going yay at this and I had to resist pointing out Dick Babs happening over at Taylor's Nightwing meaning they're still doing the dangle for both of them

[Rakiduam]

with how the stories changed at DC I'm not surprised. People liked Dixon's run, then Devin Grayson murdered everyone, get Dick and Babs engaged, then Didio murdered everyone. For those who like those, it's like the story just stops, and now it's continued.

I mean Dick Kori fans still seething about the cancelled marriage in the early 90s. Some of them still blaming Babs. Then with 2003 Teen Titans, 2018 Titans, and now this



People are grasping at breadcrumbs like the mouths of Koi in Asian freshwater fish restaurant pond (that is a way longer and very specific analogy than I thought and I'm sorry but I don't know if you got those in America)

Like I'm serious. I saw Dick Kori fans going yay at this and I had to resist pointing out Dick Babs happening over at Taylor's Nightwing meaning they're still doing the dangle for both of them

Frankly, I think Dick's development came with the NTT and stopped with Dixon's run, and his relationship with Kori was way ahead of his relationship with Babs, but at this point everyone should move on.

It would be awesome if DC stoped dismissing, erasing or corrupting Dick's life outside of the Bat's sphere though.

[prepmaster]

Jace, Babs, Jason...I assume by August it will be Tim puting Nightwing in the floor. Bat characters are bad for each other, even when they cooperate one is getting jobbed for the other.

Batman was supposed to have only one or two underlings to draw in female and younger male demographics. Now you have all these underlings that make each other redudant. Artists now have to draw unnecessary panels of these underlings taking out fodders.

The problem with NW is that he has a background of being a supporting character, with Red Hood is the background of being an antagonist. Being an interesting supporting character / interesting antagonist doesnt make those characters become strong protagonists that can sustain their books. They need more to be able to sustain their books.

In terms of street level, Batman's Gotham is decades ahead of Nightwing's Bludhaven.

[Rakiduam]

Batman was supposed to have only one or two underlings to draw in female and younger male demographics. Now you have all these underlings that make each other redudant. Artists now have to draw unnecessary panels of these underlings taking out fodders.

The problem with NW is that he has a background of being a supporting character, with Red Hood is the background of being an antagonist. Being an interesting supporting character / interesting antagonist doesnt make those characters become strong protagonists that can sustain their books. They need more to be able to sustain their books.

Actually I think the problem is that edditorial sees them like that, and they are not willing to let them grown beyond that. I don't follow Jason but every time Nightwing has build up intersting elemnts or has been part of interesting stories, it was cut short or just absorved by the brand, to the point that Titans is now a Bat family show.

The problem is not within the characters, but with the shortsight of the editorial.

eddit: Now that I think about it, last year Batman was fighting with the Joker and the Joker and the Joker again....and having a relationship with Selina... and had a new sidekick, I think). Batman is not a paragon of originality either.

[Godlike13]

Eh, I don't know that I agree. The fact that DC uses Nightwing as a whipping boy so much kind of shows what his profile and status are. Same thing happens to Superman; when you want to showcase how powerful and badass your character is, you have them beat up Clark. When you want your street level guy to showcase how cool they are, they fight Nightwing.

I hate the jobbing too, so gods damn much, but there's a reason it happens to Dick and not someone like Duke, Helena, Kate, or Tim. Beating those guys doesn't really mean anything, beating Dick does.

If the argument is that DC abuses everyone except Batman, well yeah, that's a serious problem that has devalued every IP DC owns, including Batman's. But that's not a Nightwing problem it's a DC problem and goes well beyond Grayson. Dick losing a fight isn't really detrimental to the brand, that's not where the abuse is happening; the lack of investment, autonomy, and positive character development/world building is where the abuse is happening. And if we can believe DC and Taylor, that sh*t ended when Didio got canned and we're just now catching up with that change in focus.

And I think everyone is over-valuing the impact a random FS mini is going to have either way.

Ya, a whipping boy. Nightwing’s not Superman or Batman. He doesn’t have the brand security or general exposer that they have. Continually positioning him under other characters and to show how cooler they are hurts the brand. It won’t matter what Taylor does if no one cares enough to check out his book. And why would they when everywhere else they might see the character he’s getting his ass kicked to show how so and so is cooler. The random FS mini, and really his FS book (which was fine, but it’s purpose was to have him give the new Batman the nod), is continuing a pattern that undermines the idea that that stuff is over. And quite frankly he just can’t afford it anymore.

[Claude]

I mean if they felt that the property was broken so badly then they would have relaunched the title with a new #1 to move the character away from Ric, but they didn't. I have no idea why they didn't as it will just cost the title tens of thousands of sales probably. It isn't like this random issue #78 means anything. Maybe if they took the title back to its legacy numbering in the high 200s it would make more sense, but they didn't even do that.

I wonder if someone's crunched the numbers, and being 22 issues out from a #100 is more profitable than a new #1.


I've not been around as much lately, so sorry if I've missed it - but what do people think about Teen Titans Academy and Suicide Squad being "sister titles". Lots of Nightwing connections on the Squad's roster, Thompson moving to it from Titans, and the Red X story being told across both titles...

On the one hand, it's nice to have a bit of scale. On the other hand, that first Suicide Squad issue fell a way short of blowing me away.

[Ascended]

I just don't understand that mindset. That you need to backtrack so far again just because Ric was bad. No on really cares in the end I think. All you need is a new creative team, an interesting direction, a bit of marketing, and you are all set.

That's a totally viable option, yeah. But hitting the refresh button for a minute is just as viable. You just don't like it as much.

If it were me coming onto the book after the last few years, and not just Ric but everything since the New52, maybe even Infinite Crisis (Ric was a symptom of a deeper problem, not the problem itself)....if it were me, I'd hit the reset button too.

The thing with new directions is that, unless they grow organically from what came before, they usually don't stick. How many writers in the last dozen years have done a cold launch on a new direction, only to see it flounder? This approach isn't working either. It's not helping Dick or building him up, if anything it keeps ripping what established mythos he *does* have apart. So yeah, I'd take Dick back to something resembling his classic status quo for a bit. For one, it's a palate cleanser; we spent two years with a new direction, had several other new directions before that with no real growth anywhere to be found. Before launching yet another new direction I'd take a minute to do something more familiar and comfortable. I'd re-examine and reassert the elements from the classic status quo that I'd want to build on, then introduce the elements of my new direction over several issues and let them all play off each other a little so the new direction feels more natural; evolution and not plastic surgery. And by the second trade the new direction would be in full swing....but those first six would be spent making something that could be sustainable.

This is the 4th time we've sat through the Blockbuster and Bludhaven dance number and the idea that this time it will be different and somehow elevate Dick's character to some kind of A-list or something feels like wishful thinking. Blockbuster will never be the kind of antagonist that will take Dick's character to where his fans want him to be, imo.

It probably isn't, no. I hold out hope that this is just where Taylor starts, and not where he ends. But even if Taylor does nothing but rehash Dixon, that's still miles better than what we've had and I'll take a well done, quality story that's basic bitch Nightwing over some poorly conceived, poorly executed piece of garbage that doesn't resemble Nightwing at all.

Maybe if they took the title back to its legacy numbering in the high 200s it would make more sense, but they didn't even do that.

I'd guess they'll save that for issue 300, if they do it at all.

It's a matter of show not tell, and it's not showing. They can say whatever they want but they are doing the same thing they have always done, starting with getting Nighwing beatten up for the benefit of other bats.

It is indeed a matter of show not tell. But we are *just* entering the "show" phase of things. And what has DC done? Given us a solid FS mini (I missed the 1st issue but people here seemed to like it) and one (ONE) issue by Taylor where the biggest things to bitch about is that Dick got flipped by a peer and the issue was a Dixon redux. Compared to where we were a year ago, this is the good life, ladies and gentlemen. And I hate the Babs thing too, I don't want her in this book at all and I think she and Dick bring out the worst in each other and their every interaction makes me cringe regardless of how well the page is actually written. But *this* is what we got to complain about right now? This is as bad as we're getting? Come on. With only three issues total to judge DC on, I'd say they're doing pretty well on the "show" side of things.

Doesn't mean they're gonna make the Nightwing you (or I) personally want. But if they put in the effort they deserve credit for that. And if they don't give us the Nightwing we want, then one of us needs to go pro and take over the book because DC can't do much more than put skilled, creative people in charge, give the character plenty of places to shine (without turning him into a flawless Gary Sue), and hope it resonates with fans.

And the Jason solicit....really guys? Y'all have been around long enough to know that you never trust a solicit; if it's not straight up lying to you it's still making the story sound like something it isn't. I get being angry and over-reacting to every minor slight against Nightwing, because all those things piss me off too (so much!!). But this is a solicit, it's not worth worrying about.

Ya, a whipping boy. Nightwing’s not Superman or Batman. He doesn’t have the brand security or general exposer that they have. Continually positioning him under other characters and to show how cooler they are hurts the brand.

Of course it hurts the brand. I said the same thing, and that DC's Bat wanking hurts everything, including Bruce. My point isn't that treating Dick like a whipping boy is a good thing, my point is that it shows that Nightwing still has a powerful profile. By DC standards, it's when they *stop* doing this to Dick (or Clark) that we should be worried, because it'll mean the character's profile is no longer a metric to measure everyone else by. I'm not saying it's good for business or creativity, only that Dick is still a big deal.

[Arsenal]

For better or for worse, Dick is currently the Batfam's Worf. Except when somebody takes out the entire Batfam at once, than all involved become red shirts.

There's maybe 2 other Bats that could possibly serve that role but its unlikely they'll be given it any time soon. Everybody else is either simply to young or lacks the presence needed to make it work.