Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[KrustyKid]

Tim drake wasn't a genius when he was introduced and he isn't a genius now. he is a smart kid but aside from Tynion's Tim no other portrayals of Tim has him as close to anything I would class a genius.

Barbara Gordon is a genius.
Duke Thomas as a pre teen taking on Riddler is a genius.

Damian Wayne with his extraordinary accomplishments as a 10 year old - building a flying car from scratch, Out foxing lex Luthor, acquiring a PhD, sorting out WE finances. Something an entire Board of Directors couldn't. he is a genius kid. Tim Drake isn't.

Heck with the folk that make up the batfamily Tim is not even exceptional. Damian age 10, hacked 17 year old Tim Drake and outsmarting him within minutes in War of the Robins.

this is just 3 people from within the family who are on a different level to Tim.

Dick Grayson also in a genius level detective not just in Iconic stories like Black Mirror but also through various titles even back in his Robin years and especially during his days in Hudson.

Bruce Wayne is a level Detective.
Damian Wayne is solving Bruce's Black note book cases at age 13.

Tim in Red Robin managed to stop Ra's and worked with Dick to find Bruce after Dick cracked the case.

The Red Robin writers worked hard to make Tim Batman-like but he wasn't a genius level in that book.

Pretty solid points Fergus. Which is why I find it strange that so many people on this forum claim Tim is way too 'smart', and makes the rest of the Bat Family look less than competent when in his presence which is completely untrue. Tim is far from a mary sue like a ton of his haters love to claim

[Fergus]

Pretty solid points Fergus. Which is why I find it strange that so many people on this forum claim Tim is way too 'smart', and makes the rest of the Bat Family look less than competent when in his presence which is completely untrue. Tim is far from a mary sue like a ton of his haters love to claim

I didn't know Tim was considered a Sue.

The thing with Tim is that writers keep telling us he's smart. This is repeated at constantly and often at the expense of other characters.

yes Tim is used to make other's look incompetent. Case in point BRE. jason and Tim sharing a panel was at Jason's expense.

The fact that since Tim was introduced Dick Grayson's detective abilities were focused on less while they writer told us that Tim was the smart Robin, the great detective who would one day surpass Bruce. They kept telling us this with out showing us these impressive feats.

That infamous panel where bruce is talking about the Robins



I should point out that most of the hyping of Tim as the smart one or how he would surpass bruce one day were all before Damian and Duke showed up.

And upped the Ante. Sadly writers tend to use the characters to prop others far too much. Robins get upgraded with each new addition or at least writers like to go one set further with each Robin.

Damian a chid prodigy to Duke a genius meta. Not sure what skills Jarro has but he's a Starfish from space.

Like in the Robin 80th where Tynion had Dick Grayson say that Tim is smarter than him. WTF. It's the Guys 80th and not only does he have to share his anniversary with others, he's also made to say how much smarter another Robin is.

I honestly haven't seen folks call Tim a Sue that's normally Bruce and Damian that get accused of that.

Tynion's Tim did get roasted for his nonsensical hacks.
There are those who complained about Tim fans insisting that Tim is the smartest or the best detective/only one that Ra's called Detective aside from Bruce [both false] but I've never seen anyone complain that he is a sue.

Bland yes. Sue not so much and certainly not the smartest. Not by a long shot.

People who call Tim a sue or the smart one clearly don't read a lot of comics [or stopped reading in the 90's]

Note Mary Sue doesn't mean exceptionally skilled, good at everything or OP. Other factors can contribute to sueness

[KrustyKid]

I didn't know Tim was considered a Sue.

The thing with Tim is that writers keep telling us he's smart. This is repeated at constantly and often at the expense of other characters.

yes Tim is used to make other's look incompetent. Case in point BRE. jason and Tim sharing a panel was at Jason's expense.

The fact that since Tim was introduced Dick Grayson's detective abilities were focused on less while they writer told us that Tim was the smart Robin, the great detective who would one day surpass Bruce. They kept telling us this with out showing us these impressive feats.

That infamous panel where bruce is talking about the Robins



I should point out that most of the hyping of Tim as the smart one or how he would surpass bruce one day were all before Damian and Duke showed up.

And upped the Ante. Sadly writers tend to use the characters to prop others far too much. Robins get upgraded with each new addition or at least writers like to go one set further with each Robin.

Damian a chid prodigy to Duke a genius meta. Not sure what skills Jarro has but he's a Starfish from space.

Like in the Robin 80th where Tynion had Dick Grayson say that Tim is smarter than him. WTF. It's the Guys 80th and not only does he have to share his anniversary with others, he's also made to say how much smarter another Robin is.

I honestly haven't seen folks call Tim a Sue that's normally Bruce and Damian that get accused of that.

Tynion's Tim did get roasted for his nonsensical hacks.
There are those who complained about Tim fans insisting that Tim is the smartest or the best detective/only one that Ra's called Detective aside from Bruce [both false] but I've never seen anyone complain that he is a sue.

Bland yes. Sue not so much and certainly not the smartest. Not by a long shot.

People who call Tim a sue or the smart one clearly don't read a lot of comics [or stopped reading in the 90's]

Note Mary Sue doesn't mean exceptionally skilled, good at everything or OP. Other factors can contribute to sueness

It actually happens quite often on this forum. He's far from it actually. Still don't agree with the notion Tim has made others look 'incompetent' when they're around him. I'll give you the BRE teamup with Jason and Tim. But that's less of a Tim(with Jason) problem and more of how Jason seems to be dumbed down anytime he is hanging with the Bat Fam in general.

Dick was showed to be superior to Tim as well when it came to tracking down Mother. So the whole notion Tim makes everyone look incompetent when they're paired is plain false. Tim haters for some reason love to claim that. Babs, Bruce, and Damian have the best showings in big events when it comes to smarts, followed by Dick/Tim who are more or less tied in that regard.

I agree with you. Feat wise all the Robins are fairly intelligent(including Jason, when written correctly) with Damian ultimately having the overall edge being how he is portrayed. Though in some categories I'd favor Tim and Dick over Damian. Mind you Tim had plenty of feats as a detective Pre-52. Not so much since then, largely due to being in largely overcrowded team books all the time while the other Robins have had opportunities to develop and display their skills on a deeper level without being bloated by a large group.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

Pretty solid points Fergus. Which is why I find it strange that so many people on this forum claim Tim is way too 'smart', and makes the rest of the Bat Family look less than competent when in his presence which is completely untrue. Tim is far from a mary sue like a ton of his haters love to claim

Just reading this, if anyone is a Mary Sue, it's Damian.

[sifighter]

I mean I was never going to say that Tim was Mr. Terrific level smart, but I assumed he was at least the smart one out of the Robins because he was always the computers/technical guy and his origin of figuring out Batman's identity.

[KrustyKid]

I mean I was never going to say that Tim was Mr. Terrific level smart, but I assumed he was at least the smart one out of the Robins because he was always the computers/technical guy and his origin of figuring out Batman's identity.

Smarts varies just like fighting styles. There are a number of levels to it. Tim being great with computers really showed up in tec, it wasn't always like that. Of the Robins I'd say he has the edge in that regard, but still not as good as Babs. Intelligence is a wide range of things; deductive prowess, computer tec, memory sharpness, capacity of knowledge, reasoning, critical thinking, creativity when not only solving the unknown but an immediate problem that may be right before you(Dick really excels here), and overall perception.

Damian checks most if not all of those boxes and is pretty solid with each. Hard to gauge a weakness when it comes to Damian's intellect. With Tim on the other hand that isn't the case. Tim's biggest area to improve upon is adaptability, when things don't fall in line with the way he planned or perceived he has shown to struggle. Bruce even made note of that directly to him Pre-52. Jason, Dick, and Damian are superior to him in that light.

[Fergus]

Smarts varies just like fighting styles. There are a number of levels to it. Tim being great with computers really showed up in tec, it wasn't always like that. Of the Robins I'd say he has the edge in that regard, but still not as good as Babs. Intelligence is a wide range of things; deductive prowess, computer tec, memory sharpness, capacity of knowledge, reasoning, critical thinking, creativity when not only solving the unknown but an immediate problem that may be right before you(Dick really excels here), and overall perception.

Damian checks most if not all of those boxes and is pretty solid with each. Hard to gauge a weakness when it comes to Damian's intellect. With Tim on the other hand that isn't the case. Tim's biggest area to improve upon is adaptability, when things don't fall in line with the way he planned or perceived he has shown to struggle. Bruce even made note of that directly to him Pre-52. Jason, Dick, and Damian are superior to him in that light.

Wasn't he hacked by a 10 yr old?

[Fergus]

Just reading this, if anyone is a Mary Sue, it's Damian.

Damian isn't a sue [none of the bat qualify as a sue]
Damian is over skilled to parody levels. He takes the Batman super skilled trope to a different level.

It's ridiculous. when they had him move his internal organs on instinct I lost it.

[Pohzee]

Tim at his best is written intelligently to be a thoughtful character. This is the type of smart that I think would be attractive to fans. It is unintelligent writing to use "intelligence" as a plot device to have characters come up with solutions to situations that aren't actually clever to the reader and often just convoluted mumbo jumbo. That is the type of intelligent that Damian often has and Tim has at his worst moments, like under Tynion.

I'm very much not a fan based on feats. Often, ridiculous feats turn me off of characters even. So the ridiculous asspulls and unknowable facts that Damian spouts and lazy Tim writers take don't seem smart to me. It seems lazy and unbelievable. When the writers take the time to be smart themselves, the feats of the characters are less incredible, but I can more likely believe their intelligence.

[KrustyKid]

Wasn't he hacked by a 10 yr old?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? That Damian is better with computers than Tim? That wouldn't be enough to give Damian the edge over him. There have been a number of times all of the Robins have gotten to the correct conclusion sooner than Bruce. Does that make them a better detective than Batman? Certainly not.

Though I would give Damian the slight edge over Tim if we're talking tec as a whole. Strictly computers, Tim has him beat there.

[KrustyKid]

Tim at his best is written intelligently to be a thoughtful character. This is the type of smart that I think would be attractive to fans. It is unintelligent writing to use "intelligence" as a plot device to have characters come up with solutions to situations that aren't actually clever to the reader and often just convoluted mumbo jumbo. That is the type of intelligent that Damian often has and Tim has at his worst moments, like under Tynion.

I'm very much not a fan based on feats. Often, ridiculous feats turn me off of characters even. So the ridiculous asspulls and unknowable facts that Damian spouts and lazy Tim writers take don't seem smart to me. It seems lazy and unbelievable. When the writers take the time to be smart themselves, the feats of the characters are less incredible, but I can more likely believe their intelligence.

I agree 100%. You hit it right on the nail with the last bit as well

[josai21]

You have to identify what you mean by genius *shrugs*

All of the bat-family members are smart and intelligent to varying levels. Where Tim is head and shoulder's above the others though is in being the chessmaster. Sure, you see Dick/Damian/Jason/Barbara etc outsmarting villains, but you rarely if ever see them playing villains or gangs off each other. Tim manages a status quo and manages Gotham in a strategic way.

In that, he's more like batman than the other children. This doesn't mean he's better. This doesn't demean other characters. It just means that's his strength. It's demeaning to his character when writers thing "the smart one" automatically means donatello. That's not who Tim is. He's not the tech nerd or computer nerd, though he has those skills. He's the chessmaster.

[Fergus]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? That Damian is better with computers than Tim? That wouldn't be enough to give Damian the edge over him. There have been a number of times all of the Robins have gotten to the correct conclusion sooner than Bruce. Does that make them a better detective than Batman? Certainly not.

Though I would give Damian the slight edge over Tim if we're talking tec as a whole. Strictly computers, Tim has him beat there.

I'm trying to show how silly and demeaning it is compare the batkids when one of them is a pre teen.

I hate when fans describe them them as smart, one the friendly one etc It is stupid , misleading and Damian's extremely young age invalidates everything.

[Fergus]

Tim at his best is written intelligently to be a thoughtful character. This is the type of smart that I think would be attractive to fans. It is unintelligent writing to use "intelligence" as a plot device to have characters come up with solutions to situations that aren't actually clever to the reader and often just convoluted mumbo jumbo. That is the type of intelligent that Damian often has and Tim has at his worst moments, like under Tynion.

I'm very much not a fan based on feats. Often, ridiculous feats turn me off of characters even. So the ridiculous asspulls and unknowable facts that Damian spouts and lazy Tim writers take don't seem smart to me. It seems lazy and unbelievable. When the writers take the time to be smart themselves, the feats of the characters are less incredible, but I can more likely believe their intelligence.

Sadly these days writers don't take their time to craft great stories and put thought into how stories play out/plot develops.

I'm also not a fan of writers who tell us rather than show us. I need to see not be told

[KrustyKid]

I'm trying to show how silly and demeaning it is compare the batkids when one of them is a pre teen.

I hate when fans describe them them as smart, one the friendly one etc It is stupid , misleading and Damian's extremely young age invalidates everything.

Why though? Everything he's done and accomplished should count. That would be like us comparing say.. Tim or Jason to Bruce, and saying they are far younger and inexperienced than him(which they are) that we don't count what they have gained through their own individual journeys. The same can be applied to Damian. I don't see why we'd disregard what he has achieved to this point simply because of his age. It's not like he's been incompetent on the job, quite the opposite.

Fully agree. I'd rather be shown than be told what each individual excels at through the line of a story. Unfortunately we don't always get that.