Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[KrustyKid]

Damian was basically a villain in Teen Titans and was written to become the big bad (at least since 2018), so it's very hard to say he was pushed.
As for Tim, he was in Tec', a book that was read by more readers than both Nightwing and Red hood, and he was later the face of the Young justice series.
He was indeed in team books, but he was a very prominent character in both of them.
I don't think it's possible to say he didn't get a push.

You're talking from a small window there, and ignoring everything as a whole. Damian wasn't the only one in a bad Teen Titans book, Tim got that as well with New-52. Damian has also had two solo's since the New-52 hit, Robin: Son of Batman, and his current one. Not to mention Damian also played prominent roles in large Batman events canon wise(best out of all Robins). Including non-canon stories as well; Injustice, Batman/TMNT crossover, Deceased, etc. Dick would be right up there with him, and Jason to a lesser extent.

Again, Tim being in Tec. was yet another overcrowded team book situation, and Tim was never the face of the Young Justice series, but rather 'ROBIN', which he was marketed as. Tim being the 'privileged' Robin just doesn't measure up, it's simply not true. He has yet to be in a book that solely focuses in on him, and grants him development. All other Robin's have had that opportunity from the New-52 up until now. Urban Legends is the first time we're seeing Tim receive a character driven arc that isn't diluted by the presence of an overcrowded team.

Just to be clear, not saying Tim has been shafted or ignored, merrily pointing out he is far from being 'privileged'.

[4sake Baned]

When the "traits" you're talking about have no bearing on the character, and specifically when they involve race, this reeks of tokenism. It's the kind of "there can be only one!" mentality that is at the very heart of tokenism. A whole lot of judging by the color of their skin and not by the content of their character. Pun very much intended in this case.

Tim's race has absolutely no impact on the character. Everything that is important or unique about the character comes from his family status, his inner emotional life and his mental faculties, neither of which have any bearing on race. Similarly, Damian's ethnic background doesn't really have any impact on his character. It's a function of his backstory, but doesn't really have any impact on who is or what makes him an interesting character. You could easily introduce another character of the same racial or ethnic groups, or even "race-bend" an existing one, and still keep both characters clearly defined and unique.

I'll be honest, I've never read anything with Duke. I can't speak to whether his race is intrinsic to his character the same way being African-American is to somebody like a Virgil Hawkins. Static is a character very much about the interaction between African-American youth and law enforcement, school, and expectation. But even if Duke's race is critical to his character, making Tim also a minority in no way minimizes or detracts from Duke, because the things that make them unique aren't, or at least had better not be, limited to their race. IF YOUR SOLE TRAIT IS THAT YOU ARE A MINORITY THEN YOU ARE A CHECKBOX AND NOT A CHARACTER.

All that matters is whether or not this Tim has the things that make Tim, well, Tim. Is he clever? Thoughtful? Is he driven to do the right thing? Is he full of self-doubt? Those, and others, are the traits that define Tim. Those can belong to somebody of any race or ethnic background. Even Tim's socio-economic status isn't wildly important to the character. Look at the early Dixon works on the character and there isn't anything there that demands Tim be from one class or race. He has a father he hides a secret from, he has to juggle school and heroics, he has friends on both sides of his life that he keeps out of the other. Nothing there demands Tim be rich, white, or anything in particular. Tim was essentially created as a white kid in the comics because white was the default setting and nothing from his racial or economic background really informed his creation. A working class, minority version of Tim can still very much embody all the things that are actually relevant to Tim as a character. Just as you could do so with Bruce, Dick, Jason, or even other franchise characters like Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen.

You can 100% have this version of Tim be Tim to his core, and still not be white. And not being white is in no way stealing traits from other characters. Now, whether the writing and the performance will actually bear any of that out remains to be seen.

You said what I would’ve said a lot nicer so much respect to you for that..

[Light of Justice]

You're talking from a small window there, and ignoring everything as a whole. Damian wasn't the only one in a bad Teen Titans book, Tim got that as well with New-52. Damian has also had two solo's since the New-52 hit, Robin: Son of Batman, and his current one. Not to mention Damian also played prominent roles in large Batman events canon wise(best out of all Robins). Including non-canon stories as well; Injustice, Batman/TMNT crossover, Deceased, etc. Dick would be right up there with him, and Jason to a lesser extent.

Again, Tim being in Tec. was yet another overcrowded team book situation, and Tim was never the face of the Young Justice series, but rather 'ROBIN', which he was marketed as. Tim being the 'privileged' Robin just doesn't measure up, it's simply not true. He has yet to be in a book that solely focuses in on him, and grants him development. All other Robin's have had that opportunity from the New-52 up until now. Urban Legends is the first time we're seeing Tim receive a character driven arc that isn't diluted by the presence of an overcrowded team.

Just to be clear, not saying Tim has been shafted or ignored, merrily pointing out he is far from being 'privileged'.

First thing first, I also don't think that Tim is privileged, if anything he was quite ignored in outside media like animatic movies, films, or games. Especially in animatic media when Dick is the face of Young Justice series, Jason with his iconic Red Hood movies, and Damian has full arc in animatic medias. Young Justice is Tim's team but he is hardly relevant in Young Justice series (like when I saw Young Justice fanfics, Jason and Damian who only appeared once are more prominent in those fanfics than Tim).

However, I don't agree with your comparison with Damian's case. We can't say New52 Teen Titans as "bad book" in the same category as Glass's Teen Titans "bad book". New52 Teen Titans became a bad book because of shitty writing, Glass's Teen Titans became a bad book because the creator intended to be. New52 Teen Titans, as shitty as it is, still painted Tim as a heroic character, even he became one of Teen Titans' founders, something that should be Dick's credit. Lobdell didn't write Tim as a maniac resembled Ra's Al Ghul, put a bomb vest to fake suicide, and be cornered by everyone in the book as the sole problem. If New52 Teen Titans book is bad because of Lobdell's lack of writing ability, Glass's Teen Titans book is a gross book with nasty intention to absolutely butcher Damian's character. Change him to be Magneto for Jon's Professor X of all things.

And sadly, this isn't the first time Damian was written with nasty intention. If Tim didn't yet find a book that grant him development before Urban Legend, Damian's development was constantly reduced for the sake of other's development. You mentioned Injustice, but in Injustice Damian was sacrificed for the sake of Bruce's angst, and now with the upcoming Injustice movie, we Damian stan dread the day when we have to, again, repeatedly tell to people that no, Damian is not Dick's killer, it was a fucking incident and Damian/Dick relationship in canon universe is actually so good. Injustice 2 gave him better development but hardly common people remember it and certainly it wasn't included in game version. And Batman Beyond, where Tim once replaced Terry to be Batman Beyond, Damian is the new Ra's Al Ghul. A decent one, but not a development that was wanted by Damian stan who rooted him to be a hero, and on Damian's Batman Beyond first arc he became an enemy to Terry. DCeased is indeed well-liked by fans, although I dislike that book because Damian didn't sound Damian at all and most times his role is to hug people or morally support Jon. Not to mention Damian's divisive role in other character's mini-story like in Duke's book he became the one who doubt Duke's heroism (after acknowledging him on Robin war, really), in Tynion's Batman he got thrown down by Cass just because he didn't want anyone violate his privacy room (and fandom cheered for that), and whatever he became on Titans of Tomorrow (which is greatly different from Batman666 Damian).

[ZeroBG82]

I think it only becomes an issue when you race-bend a more prominent Batfamily character to a race of another, more underutilized or newer, character to where it lessens that characters' significance because they're probably not going to be adapted any time soon.

At least in my opinion.

Ok. I get that, I think.

But then your problem isn't actually with them race bending Tim, or any other character. It's with tokenism in Hollywood and entertainment as a whole. As if using a minority character, or making a character a minority that wasn't otherwise, should ever be considered reason for not introducing another minority character later.

Let's take Duke as an example, because he's "the black Robin." Again, I know very little about Duke, I've never read more than a handful of panels of him at most. But if the only thing that defines Duke is his blackness, then he's a poor character, which doesn't seem to be the case from things like his appreciation thread and fans here on the CBR forums. So, I'm presuming that he actually has a personality that people gravitate to, skills or quirks that define him. If introducing something like a minority version of Tim precludes them later introducing Duke for a story where Duke's skills or story makes sense, that isn't a problem with the minority version of Tim, it's a problem with entertainment executives and their reliance on tokenism rather than real diversity.

If it made sense for their story, there is absolutely nothing logical preventing the Titans writers from doing scenes with this biracial version of Tim, a middle eastern or asian Damian, an African-American Duke AND an asian Cass Cain. The only thing stopping them is outdated, damaging beliefs about marketing and audience attitudes that frankly need to go away.

[KrustyKid]

First thing first, I also don't think that Tim is privileged, if anything he was quite ignored in outside media like animatic movies, films, or games. Especially in animatic media when Dick is the face of Young Justice series, Jason with his iconic Red Hood movies, and Damian has full arc in animatic medias. Young Justice is Tim's team but he is hardly relevant in Young Justice series (like when I saw Young Justice fanfics, Jason and Damian who only appeared once are more prominent in those fanfics than Tim).

However, I don't agree with your comparison with Damian's case. We can't say New52 Teen Titans as "bad book" in the same category as Glass's Teen Titans "bad book". New52 Teen Titans became a bad book because of shitty writing, Glass's Teen Titans became a bad book because the creator intended to be. New52 Teen Titans, as shitty as it is, still painted Tim as a heroic character, even he became one of Teen Titans' founders, something that should be Dick's credit. Lobdell didn't write Tim as a maniac resembled Ra's Al Ghul, put a bomb vest to fake suicide, and be cornered by everyone in the book as the sole problem. If New52 Teen Titans book is bad because of Lobdell's lack of writing ability, Glass's Teen Titans book is a gross book with nasty intention to absolutely butcher Damian's character. Change him to be Magneto for Jon's Professor X of all things.

And sadly, this isn't the first time Damian was written with nasty intention. If Tim didn't yet find a book that grant him development before Urban Legend, Damian's development was constantly reduced for the sake of other's development. You mentioned Injustice, but in Injustice Damian was sacrificed for the sake of Bruce's angst, and now with the upcoming Injustice movie, we Damian stan dread the day when we have to, again, repeatedly tell to people that no, Damian is not Dick's killer, it was a fucking incident and Damian/Dick relationship in canon universe is actually so good. Injustice 2 gave him better development but hardly common people remember it and certainly it wasn't included in game version. And Batman Beyond, where Tim once replaced Terry to be Batman Beyond, Damian is the new Ra's Al Ghul. A decent one, but not a development that was wanted by Damian stan who rooted him to be a hero, and on Damian's Batman Beyond first arc he became an enemy to Terry. DCeased is indeed well-liked by fans, although I dislike that book because Damian didn't sound Damian at all and most times his role is to hug people or morally support Jon. Not to mention Damian's divisive role in other character's mini-story like in Duke's book he became the one who doubt Duke's heroism (after acknowledging him on Robin war, really), in Tynion's Batman he got thrown down by Cass just because he didn't want anyone violate his privacy room (and fandom cheered for that), and whatever he became on Titans of Tomorrow (which is greatly different from Batman666 Damian).

True, you hit it on the mark for why both of their TT runs weren't very good. Damian being written that way was clearly a set up for what they had planned for 5G. Obviously they back-peddled on the whole thing. Who knows how it would have turned out. Tim was no prize in Titans Tomorrow either, he definitely fell off the rails. Both have had their share of bad writing, in Damian's case more intentional since they were aiming for a different direction.

[godisawesome]

New 52 Teen Titans made Tim a victim/tool of sexual assault that the writer was in denial about and completely changed his background for no reason while consistently demonstrating that Lobdell had no idea who Tim was as a character.

Tim in New 52 Teen Titans is a crime against the character from an inept writer who doesn’t know or care about the character; Damian in Rebirth Teen Titans is a crime against the character from a writer who has enough knowledge of the character to screw up by exaggerating some elements and ignoring a few (but important) others.

Ok. I get that, I think.

But then your problem isn't actually with them race bending Tim, or any other character. It's with tokenism in Hollywood and entertainment as a whole. As if using a minority character, or making a character a minority that wasn't otherwise, should ever be considered reason for not introducing another minority character later.

Let's take Duke as an example, because he's "the black Robin." Again, I know very little about Duke, I've never read more than a handful of panels of him at most. But if the only thing that defines Duke is his blackness, then he's a poor character, which doesn't seem to be the case from things like his appreciation thread and fans here on the CBR forums. So, I'm presuming that he actually has a personality that people gravitate to, skills or quirks that define him. If introducing something like a minority version of Tim precludes them later introducing Duke for a story where Duke's skills or story makes sense, that isn't a problem with the minority version of Tim, it's a problem with entertainment executives and their reliance on tokenism rather than real diversity.

If it made sense for their story, there is absolutely nothing logical preventing the Titans writers from doing scenes with this biracial version of Tim, a middle eastern or asian Damian, an African-American Duke AND an asian Cass Cain. The only thing stopping them is outdated, damaging beliefs about marketing and audience attitudes that frankly need to go away.

I *really* agree with this last part here.

[Konja7]

New 52 Teen Titans made Tim a victim/tool of sexual assault that the writer was in denial about and completely changed his background for no reason while consistently demonstrating that Lobdell had no idea who Tim was as a character.

I suspect Lobdell recognized the issue with Tim being a victim/tool of sexual assault at the end. That's why the last issue of New52 Teen Titans implies that only a kiss happened between Tim and Cassie.

[Darkcrusade25]

I suspect Lobdell recognized the issue with Tim being a victim/tool of sexual assault at the end. That's why the last issue of New52 Teen Titans implies that only a kiss happened between Tim and Cassie.

That last issue was by Tony Bedard. Lobdell only wrote 1 issue of the second N52 run(#12) and it just happened to be the issue that destroyed the book.

Edit: he also wrote the second annual too

[skyvolt2000]

Perhaps because those characters don't fit the story that is set to be told.

Why don't they???

What does Tim have that they don't? That you have to race change him?

Why could he not stay the same way he was in comics?

Oh could it be Tim has to pay for the failure of DC to develop POC?

Tim held 3 minis & 2 solos. His books were not ruined by editors like Cyborg and Static and Black Lightning's run.

He was not deemed toxic like Cassandra.

Tim is a fully developed character. This race bending is nothing more than lazy folks trying to fill in a gap that guys like Duke have been denied or have had derailed.

[Superboy-Prime]

Why don't they???

What does Tim have that they don't? That you have to race change him?

Why could he not stay the same way he was in comics?

Oh could it be Tim has to pay for the failure of DC to develop POC?

Tim held 3 minis & 2 solos. His books were not ruined by editors like Cyborg and Static and Black Lightning's run.

He was not deemed toxic like Cassandra.

Tim is a fully developed character. This race bending is nothing more than lazy folks trying to fill in a gap that guys like Duke have been denied or have had derailed.

If Tim is so developed why has he been ripping off a burger restaurant for the last 10 years? I like Red Robin. They've got great fries. DC deserves to be sued for what they've done.

[Dataweaver]

If Tim is so developed why has he been ripping off a burger restaurant for the last 10 years? I like Red Robin. They've got great fries. DC deserves to be sued for what they've done.

Complaining that he isn't a fully developed character because you don't like his code name is rather shallow.

[Superboy-Prime]

Complaining that he isn't a fully developed character because you don't like his code name is rather shallow.

How are you gonna say you've moved on from Robin when Robin is in your new name?

[Dataweaver]

Arguing over someone's choice of code name is about as pointless as arguing over the color of their skin.

[Superboy-Prime]

We're not arguing, because as you can see, he's already back to Robin. And kinda in Damian's shadow.

[Dataweaver]

And that still has nothing to do whether or not he's a fully developed character. All that that says is that he has been poorly handled lately.