Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[Superboy-Prime]

Again, that's just packaging. I'm not a ginger, but I like reading Wally's adventures. I'm not black, but I'm very fond of John Henry Irons, John Stewart, and Vixen, just to name a few. Speaking of Vixen, I'm not female either; but that doesn't stop me from enjoying her stories. And I'm fond of the Batgirls, too.

“Identifying with” a comic book character is nice and all; but its importance is drastically overblown. I don't read comic books to put myself into the lead character's shoes; I read them because I find the characters to be likable and interesting; and that can happen whether or not the character is like me.

It's often people with an overabundance of characters that look like them that say this kinda stuff. But as a Kryptonian, I mostly enjoy reading Superman stories. Like the Death of Superman.

[Dataweaver]

It's often people with an overabundance of characters that look like them that say this kinda stuff. But as a Kryptonian, I mostly enjoy reading Superman stories. Like the Death of Superman.

Yeah; during the Reign of the Supermen story, I was rooting for John Henry to become the next Superman. Because, of the four replacement candidates we were being given, he was the only one who felt like Superman. The others had Superman's powers and appearance; but only Steel had his heart.

[Superboy-Prime]

Yeah; during the Reign of the Supermen story, I was rooting for John Henry to become the next Superman. Because, of the four replacement candidates we were being given, he was the only one who felt like Superman. The others had Superman's powers and appearance; but only Steel had his heart.

I don't like Steel.

[Dataweaver]

I don't like Steel.

Is that because you're Kryptonian and he isn't?

[Superboy-Prime]

Is that because you're Kryptonian and he isn't?

Yes, Val-Zod is better as a next Superman.

[Dataweaver]

Yes, Val-Zod is better as a next Superman.

He wasn't one of the options at the time — though even if he had been, I suspect I would still have preferred Irons.

[Aahz]

The reason of race bending and other adjustments to the lore is simple, because they don't know when they're gonna get to the POC characters, so if they wanna be, or at least, look diverse they gotta do it now.

For titans I don't buy that, there were allready 3 black members of the team before Tim was even created.

And even when it comes to the Batfamily, Luke Fox (who was created less then 10 years ago) got into live action before Tim and Damian.
And since Duke was never really the Robin in the main continuity, it is far easier to bring him in at any point of the timeline they want.
Tim's origin on the other hand, is the least flexible in this regard.

[Light of Justice]

For titans I don't buy that, there were allready 3 black members of the team before Tim was even created.

And even when it comes to the Batfamily, Luke Fox (who was created less then 10 years ago) got into live action before Tim and Damian.
And since Duke was never really the Robin in the main continuity, it is far easier to bring him in at any point of the timeline they want.
Tim's origin on the other hand, is the least flexible in this regard.

But if they want to tell the story about Robin after Jason's death, they had to use Tim.

(Although I had to admit, when I checked Duke's origin, just like you said not only Duke's origin is indeed flexible to place in any timeline, but also oddly fit for post-Robin death story. Since he's also created after Damian's death, deduced Batman and Robin's identity, and want to become a vigilante in Robin's absence, either death or Damian's Year of Blood. But maybe DC chose to stick on the proper order.)

[Digifiend]

It took 10+ years for Damian to get into cartoon, and we're nearing another 10 years pass with no Damian live action, it's probably gonna be 20 years. Has Duke gotten a cameo in Young Justice? Then he will be in a cartoon as a feature in the next 10-20 years, and a live action in another 20 years. Cass Cain got her first live action feature after 20 years. Stephanie still none.

Incorrect. Steph appeared in an episode of Batwoman this season.

[Konja7]

Why don't they???

What does Tim have that they don't? That you have to race change him?

Maybe Duke, but not Damian.

One of the most important traits of Damian is that he is Batman's son. If that isn't part of the character called Damian Wayne, you will be extremely close to BoP's Cassandra Cain.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying that if the core problem is fixed that "checkboxes aren't needed"?
It kind of sounds like well written characters don't need to be minorities.
Nobody who wants diversity wants box checking/tokens. There is no choice that needs to be made between diversity and good writing.
If I'm misunderstanding you, then excuse me.

I think the point is that DC don't really care about diversity, they just want to capitalize on the current popular thing.

That's why Tim Drake is black in Titans. They want the third Robin in Titans, but they wouldn't have another white actor for that role.

[witchboy]

Maybe Duke, but not Damian.

One of the most important traits of Damian is that he is Batman's son. If that isn't part of the character called Damian Wayne, you will be extremely close to BoP's Cassandra Cain.





I think the point is that DC don't really care about diversity, they just want to capitalize on the current popular thing.

That's why Tim Drake is black in Titans. They want the third Robin in Titans, but they wouldn't have another white actor for that role.

DC as a corporation is only interested in the money, but there are individual writers and artists who do care about diversity.
When I came out in 1993 people said being gay was "trendy', 28 years later it's "the current popular thing" I guess. The readers are diverse and it only makes sense that the characters will be as well.

[Konja7]

DC as a corporation is only interested in the money, but there are individual writers and artists who do care about diversity.
When I came out in 1993 people said being gay was "trendy', 28 years later it's "the current popular thing" I guess. The readers are diverse and it only makes sense that the characters will be as well.

When I say "the current popular thing", I mean the current situation that media is so interested in representation. After all, entertainment is contolled by corporations, which are only interested on money.

Maybe individual writers really care. Or maybe not.

[witchboy]

When I say "the current popular thing", I mean the current situation that media is so interested in representation. After all, entertainment is contolled by corporations, which are only interested on money.

Maybe individual writers really care. Or maybe not.

There are examples of writers wanting to write more LGBT characters and being stopped by the companies. Some writers definitely care. Devin Greyson would've wrote a bi Dick in a heartbeat, and has talked about writing Dick as bi in fan fiction. Scott Lobdell tried to write Iceman coming out as gay in the mid 90s. Marjorie Lui wrote Daken and Johnny Storm as clearly having a fling and has talked openly about it but it's been ignored in his portrayal since then.
Writers like George Perez, John Byrne and Judd Winnick were writing gay characters in their stories for decades.
If the market now makes it profitable to include diversity, that's great. Don't forget the market in less enlightened times prevented diversity, it's worked both ways, and a more balanced representation is a very new thing. Movies still include LGBT characters in such a way that the queer content can be easily removed for the Chinese market.

[Restingvoice]

For titans I don't buy that, there were allready 3 black members of the team before Tim was even created.

And even when it comes to the Batfamily, Luke Fox (who was created less then 10 years ago) got into live action before Tim and Damian.
And since Duke was never really the Robin in the main continuity, it is far easier to bring him in at any point of the timeline they want.
Tim's origin on the other hand, is the least flexible in this regard.

But if they want to tell the story about Robin after Jason's death, they had to use Tim.

(Although I had to admit, when I checked Duke's origin, just like you said not only Duke's origin is indeed flexible to place in any timeline, but also oddly fit for post-Robin death story. Since he's also created after Damian's death, deduced Batman and Robin's identity, and want to become a vigilante in Robin's absence, either death or Damian's Year of Blood. But maybe DC chose to stick on the proper order.)

Yep, they already decided first that they're going with this story about Jason and Tim, and because of that, they decided on the race next.

I think for the same reason as Luke, Duke can appear in live action, if they're making a story about Zero Year or amnesia Batman, but they're not. Not yet. It's possible, like with Kate and Luke, some characters can overlap and appear first because how their story and relation to Batman is more flexible, like how the movies now they're not waiting for Batgirl to be introduced in Batman first, they straight up making Batgirl, even Harley movie before Batman.

and yeah. Steph's in Batwoman. Still 40 years after first appearance. So point still stands

Just that this past 10 years it's more flexible apparently, but not flexible enough. The hierarchy is starting to break, probably because they heard people are bored seeing the pearl drop to Crime Alley for the thousandth time, but the hierarchy is still there, just maybe moved a bit.

[Aahz]

It took 10+ years for Damian to get into cartoon, and we're nearing another 10 years pass with no Damian live action, it's probably gonna be 20 years.

I think Damian is actually the hardest Robin to get into live action, since for that you need a Batman that is already pretty far into his career and ideally you need to set up the relation between him and Talia in a previous movie.

What makes it even harder is that for live action you probably need to go for an older Damian than in cartoon and comics.

Dick and Jason have when it comes to this imo a really big advantage over the other Robins. Dick because he is the classic version, and Jason since the street kid origin is probably the one, that is the easiest to write into any Batman story.