Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[hairys]

So I dont think we will see the Conner/Tim relationship as I am not sure that DC will be so bold as to make both their Superman and their Superboy queer. However, at this point, it seems like they are just checking boxes and not really looking for good stories any more, just checking boxes to keep the headlines happy.

Why not? Every level of the comics industry -- from writer/artist, to editor, to management -- is pro-LGBT. There's no imaginary force working against LGBT, not in this industry.

If you're making a financial argument, I think it only applies to the trinity of Bruce, Clark, and Diana (and even Diana will be hinted at as being bi). Those are the only 3 IPs that DC would be very unlikely to turn gay.

[Daedalus]

By your weird definition of "established," virtually no character in comics has been established as straight. You don't think creators have talked off-panel about Bruce being gay, for example? I mean, the rumors/meme of Batman and Robin being gay for each other have been around for decades, so does that mean Bruce isn't straight?

For most reasonable people, 30 years of Tim on panel only dating girls and never having thought bubbles where he's crushing on other dudes, is enough to establish him as straight.

Why does it matter anyway? From a left-wing point of view, increasing LGBT representation is a good thing, and if creators are too lazy/impatient to invent new characters and wait years and years for them to build a following, then they have to basically turn established characters gay. Can't make omelets without breaking a few eggs, essentially. Embrace it, don't hide from it, and don't attempt to gaslight 30 years of a character's history.

I think creators haven't seriously discussed Bruce not being straight at all. I think it didn't even cross their minds.

This is Tim Drake, teenager, who has only had ~4 years tops of stories in-universe, discovering himself in his teenage years, as most LGBT people do. It's a perfectly sensible story. This is also a character who has been written and drawn with the express intention of implying this more than once by more than one artist.

Besides, as the comic goes out of its way to notice, it's not like his previous relationships with women didn't count.

[dietrich]

I think creators haven't seriously discussed Bruce not being straight at all. I think it didn't even cross their minds.

This is Tim Drake, teenager, who has only had ~4 years tops of stories in-universe, discovering himself in his teenage years, as most LGBT people do. It's a perfectly sensible story. This is also a character who has been written and drawn with the express intention of implying this more than once by more than one artist.

Besides, as the comic goes out of its way to notice, it's not like his previous relationships with women didn't count.

So Damian was Robin before Tim? [Damian has also been Robin for 4 years] Again what is DC doing? The mythos is very slowly edging tim out.

Also just realised that Tim is now the least experience bat kid. This is bonkers. In the process of fixing Tim they are making him worse. We don't need a 16 year old fill in Robin next to a 14 year old full time Robin and with Damian returning to the Bat books with Williamson as the lead writer I wonder what that means for tim?

he might continue opposite nightwing [I hope not]. Fans have been demanding a Nightwing Robin title for time but not like this. not Dick and Tim. Personally i want nightwing minus any bats . Simply focus on the Character.

The Nightwing Title is no place to explore Tim's sexuality so I wonder what the plans are for him in the future.

A mini maybe

[hairys]

I think creators haven't seriously discussed Bruce not being straight at all. I think it didn't even cross their minds.

That's hard to believe, considering how prevalent the meme is in pop culture. Remember the Ambiguously Gay Duo from SNL? (Check out that batmobile!)



And historically there are way more comic book panels of Bruce and Dick that are suggestive, than there are of Tim. Here's a whole Slate article about Bruce/Dick: https://slate.com/culture/2016/04/th...and-robin.html

And inside that article are quotes from Grant Morrison like "Batman is VERY, very gay."

The point being, it doesn't matter what creators think off-panel or even what is ambiguously drawn on-panel. In comics, if a character is gay, they have thought bubbles to express that on panel (or they can come out of the closet openly on panel as well).

For Tim, in 30 years of comics, he's only dated girls and has only had thought bubbles expressing attraction to girls. If he were bi, he would've had a thought bubble or two of, "Oooh, Dick's butt is looking mighty fine today" or similar thrown in.

Like I said, for most reasonable people, it's been established that Tim is straight.

[dietrich]

Yeah Morrison did say that batman and robin were gay and even gave us a closeted Batman in The Just

[Daedalus]

So Damian was Robin before Tim? [Damian has also been Robin for 4 years] Again what is DC doing? The mythos is very slowly edging tim out.

It can't be much more than that. Tim was evidently a teenager when he started being Robin, and is still a teenager currently. Maybe it's 5 years, maybe it's 6. But it's certainly the case that for most of Tim's tenure, Damian was around. Damian of course is still less experienced than Tim, because we don't stop counting Tim's years the moment Damian shows up. Tim has remained a vigilante throughout all that time (with perhaps a few weeks off here and there?).

That's hard to believe, considering how prevalent the meme is in pop culture. Remember the Ambiguously Gay Duo from SNL? (Check out that batmobile!)



And historically there are way more comic book panels of Bruce and Dick that are suggestive, than there are of Tim.

There is a meme about Bruce and Dick, which is different. It’s an internet joke, which no one has ever taken seriously. Bruce adopted Dick as a child. I would wager all that I own that no writer has ever walked into DC’s editorial office and seriously pitched that romance.

And inside that article are quotes from Grant Morrison like "Batman is VERY, very gay."

Morrison's quote is misused - he's addressing Batman's lack of defining romantic interest. Here's what he actually said: "He's very plutonian in the sense that he's wealthy and also in the sense that he's sexually deviant. Gayness is built into Batman. I'm not using gay in the pejorative sense, but Batman is very, very gay. There's just no denying it. Obviously as a fictional character he's intended to be heterosexual, but the basis of the whole concept is utterly gay. I think that's why people like it. All these women fancy him and they all wear fetish clothes and jump around rooftops to get to him. He doesn't care-he's more interested in hanging out with the old guy and the kid."

It's evident from the quote that it's not "I, Grant Morrison, interpret the character as being homosexual". He even stresses that the character is heterosexual within the quote itself. It's addressing another point entirely.

For Tim, in 30 years of comics, he's only dated girls and has only had thought bubbles expressing attraction to girls. If he were bi, he would've had a thought bubble or two of, "Oooh, Dick's butt is looking mighty fine today" or similar thrown in.

I don't know what world you live in that such thought bubble would have been acceptable 30 years ago, but it seems very progressive.

Obviously this couldn't have been the case when Tim first debuted. It couldn't have been the case for most of his existence - any lgbt characters in the big publishers were fringe players at most. And yet, writers and artists still inferred it - not as a joke or a meme, as the Bruce case you cited, but seriously.

Besides, he's a teenager. Exploring his sexuality at this point in time is normal and frequent. Was he supposed to be born with that realization? Known all along? That's not how it works for everyone. This is a story that a lot of people go through - why not Tim?

Like I said, for most reasonable people, it's been established that Tim is straight.

Ah yes, "reasonable people are those that agree with me".

Look at it as if they had given him just another love interest - only this time, that love interest is a guy. It's really that simple. Tim is still Tim.

[hairys]

There is a meme about Bruce and Dick, which is different. It’s an internet joke, which no one has ever taken seriously. Bruce adopted Dick as a child. I would wager all that I own that no writer has ever walked into DC’s editorial office and seriously pitched that romance.

Learn your comics history, my friend. The rumors about Bruce and Dick got so bad that DC had to create Kathy Kane as a love interest for Bruce.

Morrison's quote is misused - he's addressing Batman's lack of defining romantic interest. Here's what he actually said: "He's very plutonian in the sense that he's wealthy and also in the sense that he's sexually deviant. Gayness is built into Batman. I'm not using gay in the pejorative sense, but Batman is very, very gay. There's just no denying it. Obviously as a fictional character he's intended to be heterosexual, but the basis of the whole concept is utterly gay. I think that's why people like it. All these women fancy him and they all wear fetish clothes and jump around rooftops to get to him. He doesn't care-he's more interested in hanging out with the old guy and the kid."

It's evident from the quote that it's not "I, Grant Morrison, interpret the character as being homosexual". He even stresses that the character is heterosexual within the quote itself. It's addressing another point entirely.

The point is you said it's never crossed a creator's mind that Bruce is gay when there have been ample discussions about it throughout history by many creators, and by many people reporting on comics (like the linked Slate article).

I don't know what world you live in that such thought bubble would have been acceptable 30 years ago, but it seems very progressive.

Obviously this couldn't have been the case when Tim first debuted. It couldn't have been the case for most of his existence - any lgbt characters in the big publishers were fringe players at most.

Yes, I agree with that. But it doesn't matter how it came about that Tim had 30 years of straight thought bubbles and no gay thought bubbles in those 30 years. In the context of our conversation about the definition of "established", I would say those 30 years established Tim as straight before the recent change.

Ah yes, "reasonable people are those that agree with me".

Yes, I do believe you're being unreasonable about how you are defining "established" (unless you want to say that almost all comic characters haven't established their sexuality.)

But we can keep it civil and agree to disagree on that.

6 months ago, if we had polled this forum on whether Tim is (a) straight, (b) queer, or (c) unknown, I believe the vast, vast majority of posters would've answered "straight." You apparently believe that most people would've answered "queer" or "unknown." And we just disagree on that. And that's okay.

[Daedalus]

Learn your comics history, my friend. The rumors about Bruce and Dick got so bad that DC had to create Kathy Kane as a love interest for Bruce.

I very evidently meant it as in "no one working in DC Comics has ever taken seriously". This whole discussion happened because you dismissed the creators who had read Tim as queer, using the Bruce Wayne-Dick Grayson media scare as an example.

I think that is a false equivalency, because in the first case, the writers and artists actually thought of this as part of the character when they were writing or drawing him, which was not the case with the Bruce Wayne situation in the mid-20th century. In that situation, it was an over-moralizing of society that encroached on comics (and in many other aspects of society at the time) and assumed things that were never intended by the authors in the first place.

I am aware of the impact rumors - of this kind and others - had on comics.

The point is you said it's never crossed a creator's mind that Bruce is gay when there have been ample discussions about it throughout history by many creators, and by many people reporting on comics (like the linked Slate article).

I don't think it ever crossed any creator's mind to write the Bruce-Dick relationship as a homosexual relationship, nor do I think Morrison wrote the character as homosexual based on his quotes. I think that's pretty evident from the quote itself, but your interpretation is your interpretation.

6 months ago, if we had polled this forum on whether Tim is (a) straight, (b) queer, or (c) unknown, I believe the vast, vast majority of posters would've answered "straight." You apparently believe that most people would've answered "queer" or "unknown." And we just disagree on that.

I think that even if this forum were a representative sample size of comicbook readers (which I doubt), and even if we got the results you expect, does that make the story nonsensical?

I would encourage you to imagine how much of that is due society in general assuming that the default sexuality is straight when it's not explicit. I think the better question you should ask yourself is: "does this teenage boy coming to realizations about himself feel unrealistic?"

But we can keep it civil and agree to disagree on that.

Yes, perhaps that would be wisest.

[hairys]

I think that even if this forum were a representative sample size of comicbook readers (which I doubt), and even if we got the results you expect, does that make the story nonsensical?

I would encourage you to imagine how much of that is due society in general assuming that the default sexuality is straight when it's not explicit. I think the better question you should ask yourself is: "does this teenage boy coming to realizations about himself feel unrealistic?"

My argument about your weird usage of "established" (or "unestablished" as the case may be) is actually agnostic about whether making Tim gay is a good idea or realistic, both from a storytelling standpoint and any other standpoint. I do have many paragraphs of thoughts about those things but I'm not interested, at least today, in typing out more posts in this thread. I'll give you a preview, though: "Yes, it's nonsensical / unrealistic for a character to have never had gay thoughts before in 30 years of publishing to all of a sudden be turned gay."

With that out of the way and with your questions to me answered, I am comfortable calling it a day for this thread and agreeing to disagree with you about how to define "established" / "unestablished." I believe you are using it very unconventionally / incorrectly and apparently you do not concur.

[Dr.Octagon]

I think creators haven't seriously discussed Bruce not being straight at all. I think it didn't even cross their minds.

This is Tim Drake, teenager, who has only had ~4 years tops of stories in-universe, discovering himself in his teenage years, as most LGBT people do. It's a perfectly sensible story. This is also a character who has been written and drawn with the express intention of implying this more than once by more than one artist.

Besides, as the comic goes out of its way to notice, it's not like his previous relationships with women didn't count.

Why not have Tim,Bernard & Stephanie in a polyamorous relationship as a throuple?
(Steph could be the filling in the Sandwich so to Speak) lol

[Dr.Octagon]

So Damian was Robin before Tim? [Damian has also been Robin for 4 years] Again what is DC doing? The mythos is very slowly edging tim out.

Also just realised that Tim is now the least experience bat kid. This is bonkers. In the process of fixing Tim they are making him worse. We don't need a 16 year old fill in Robin next to a 14 year old full time Robin and with Damian returning to the Bat books with Williamson as the lead writer I wonder what that means for tim?

he might continue opposite nightwing [I hope not]. Fans have been demanding a Nightwing Robin title for time but not like this. not Dick and Tim. Personally i want nightwing minus any bats . Simply focus on the Character.

The Nightwing Title is no place to explore Tim's sexuality so I wonder what the plans are for him in the future.

A mini maybe

I disagree, a Nightwing title would be the perfect place for Tim to explore his sexuality..
They could rename the book “Tim & “Dick” lol

[Dr.Octagon]

Learn your comics history, my friend. The rumors about Bruce and Dick got so bad that DC had to create Kathy Kane as a love interest for Bruce.



The point is you said it's never crossed a creator's mind that Bruce is gay when there have been ample discussions about it throughout history by many creators, and by many people reporting on comics (like the linked Slate article).




Yes, I agree with that. But it doesn't matter how it came about that Tim had 30 years of straight thought bubbles and no gay thought bubbles in those 30 years. In the context of our conversation about the definition of "established", I would say those 30 years established Tim as straight before the recent change.



Yes, I do believe you're being unreasonable about how you are defining "established" (unless you want to say that almost all comic characters haven't established their sexuality.)

But we can keep it civil and agree to disagree on that.

6 months ago, if we had polled this forum on whether Tim is (a) straight, (b) queer, or (c) unknown, I believe the vast, vast majority of posters would've answered "straight." You apparently believe that most people would've answered "queer" or "unknown." And we just disagree on that. And that's okay.

Well said.

[Dr.Octagon]

My argument about your weird usage of "established" (or "unestablished" as the case may be) is actually agnostic about whether making Tim gay is a good idea or realistic, both from a storytelling standpoint and any other standpoint. I do have many paragraphs of thoughts about those things but I'm not interested, at least today, in typing out more posts in this thread. I'll give you a preview, though: "Yes, it's nonsensical / unrealistic for a character to have never had gay thoughts before in 30 years of publishing to all of a sudden be turned gay."

With that out of the way and with your questions to me answered, I am comfortable calling it a day for this thread and agreeing to disagree with you about how to define "established" / "unestablished." I believe you are using it very unconventionally / incorrectly and apparently you do not concur.

I also concur.

[Dr.Octagon]

So Damian was Robin before Tim? [Damian has also been Robin for 4 years] Again what is DC doing? The mythos is very slowly edging tim out.

Also just realised that Tim is now the least experience bat kid. This is bonkers. In the process of fixing Tim they are making him worse. We don't need a 16 year old fill in Robin next to a 14 year old full time Robin and with Damian returning to the Bat books with Williamson as the lead writer I wonder what that means for tim?

he might continue opposite nightwing [I hope not]. Fans have been demanding a Nightwing Robin title for time but not like this. not Dick and Tim. Personally i want nightwing minus any bats . Simply focus on the Character.

The Nightwing Title is no place to explore Tim's sexuality so I wonder what the plans are for him in the future.

A mini maybe

Forget the mini.
If Tim is paired with Dick he’ll often get a Semi lol

[Restingvoice]

So Damian was Robin before Tim? [Damian has also been Robin for 4 years] Again what is DC doing? The mythos is very slowly edging tim out.

Also just realised that Tim is now the least experience bat kid. This is bonkers. In the process of fixing Tim they are making him worse. We don't need a 16 year old fill in Robin next to a 14 year old full time Robin and with Damian returning to the Bat books with Williamson as the lead writer I wonder what that means for tim?

he might continue opposite nightwing [I hope not]. Fans have been demanding a Nightwing Robin title for time but not like this. not Dick and Tim. Personally i want nightwing minus any bats . Simply focus on the Character.

The Nightwing Title is no place to explore Tim's sexuality so I wonder what the plans are for him in the future.

A mini maybe

They only mention that he's still a teenager but that could be 19.
My personal count look like this.

Infinite Frontier - Tim 19 - Damian 14
Rebirth - Tim 18 - Damian 13
Batman and Robin Eternal - Tim 17 - Damian 12
Death of The Family - Tim 16 - Damian 11
Batman and Robin Reborn - Tim 15 - Damian 10
Under The Red Hood - Tim 14 - Damian 9
No Man's Land - Tim 13 - Damian 8
Knightfall - Tim 12 - Damian 7
A Lonely Place of Dying - Jason 15 -Tim 11 - Damian 6

So instead of making Tim only been Robin for 4 years, my interpretation is he became Robin earlier. 11 instead of 13.

Until it's confirmed otherwise, since none of Tim's back story is confirmed except that he dated Steph in Rebirth, went to high school with Bernard, and Conner died.

I'm not even counting anything in Rebirth as canon unless it's mentioned in post Infinite stories.