Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[witchboy]

Tim being Bi isn't the issue for me, the issue is were getting into Charlie Cooper territory.

So we were talking about how much Steph and Tim are like MJ. Because Steph and Tim are a pretty well established pairing (even Dick/Babs is the most known), them breaking up and him dating Bernard is very much akin to Peter ending up with Charlie Cooper in Spider-Man.

Basically Charlie was billed as a Peter's one true love, to the point where MJ was Basically telling him to date Charlie.

I do not want Steph to be relegated to a mouth peice for that pairings, what's going to taint the stories is if they use her to be his stepping stone for this relationship.

I can see why Steph being a supporter of Bernard might not go down well - I was not a fan of Charlie Cooper. But who's to say Bernard might not be developed more successfully than Charlie? And I wouldn't expect or want Steph to be a mouthpiece for the relationship.
Or Bernard may not be meant to be Tim's forever partner and Tim may down the road have another boyfriend. I'm holding out hope still for Conner.
The whole situation was rushed, at least in part because Tim isn't getting enough page time, by not letting Tim and Steph break up on page. Hopefully some better resolution can still come for that.
I would like in time for Steph and Tim to be friends. They can have a special bond still that isn't impacted by who they date going forward.

[Darkspellmaster]

I can see why Steph being a supporter of Bernard might not go down well - I was not a fan of Charlie Cooper. But who's to say Bernard might not be developed more successfully than Charlie? And I wouldn't expect or want Steph to be a mouthpiece for the relationship.
Or Bernard may not be meant to be Tim's forever partner and Tim may down the road have another boyfriend. I'm holding out hope still for Conner.
The whole situation was rushed, at least in part because Tim isn't getting enough page time, by not letting Tim and Steph break up on page. Hopefully some better resolution can still come for that.
I would like in time for Steph and Tim to be friends. They can have a special bond still that isn't impacted by who they date going forward.

I hope that's the case, but he's already rubbing me the wrong way with his "perfect" aspects(and Apparently Damian likes him or so a panel shows so thats a big What?! On my end). I get that and I'd be more will for Conner or even Airwaves as a choice due to both being good characters. The problem is that, and maybe this is just me projecting, it feels like they want to have some sort of deeper connection with "childhood friend" anime like romance here, and that worries me as it would go down the rabbit hole into bad tropes.

Bingo!The last time they broke up seriously we got a fall out before they kinda moved on for a while. Here it sounds serious but no lead up or falk out. Thats why Tim needs a book as much as Damian does, to give us breathing room.

Special bond is fine, im all for that, I just don't want either of them to become more of shadows as characters.

[witchboy]

I hope that's the case, but he's already rubbing me the wrong way with his "perfect" aspects(and Apparently Damian likes him or so a panel shows so thats a big What?! On my end). I get that and I'd be more will for Conner or even Airwaves as a choice due to both being good characters. The problem is that, and maybe this is just me projecting, it feels like they want to have some sort of deeper connection with "childhood friend" anime like romance here, and that worries me as it would go down the rabbit hole into bad tropes.

Bingo!The last time they broke up seriously we got a fall out before they kinda moved on for a while. Here it sounds serious but no lead up or falk out. Thats why Tim needs a book as much as Damian does, to give us breathing room.

Special bond is fine, im all for that, I just don't want either of them to become more of shadows as characters.

Your concerns sound valid.
I would hope that more time given to the story would lead to better storytelling and characterization. The story has to be so compressed there's no breathing room right now. A solo Tim title and a team book for him - and a bigger presence for Steph too! - would allow for all this. I'd hope DC would take note of all the media buzz around Tim now and give him another series.
I think that some of the concerns of anime tropes will go away when another writer is writing Tim. I wouldn't expect the current writer to maintain control over Tim forever. And, if she goes on to do more work, perhaps will get a stronger voice and avoid the tropes. I don't object to her doing more at all, and the tropes might not be as painful in less compressed stories.
Damien being too supportive isn't at all the way I'd go. Damien shouldn't care about trivial things like orientation, but I would expect and want him to belittle Tim's boyfriends based on non-identity issues.

[Majesty]

The main thing is, characters need to actually get the chance to be as developed if they're going to reach that point. But DC has a tendency to usually cut off any pairings that aren't their OTPs off at the knees before they truly have a chance to breathe and gain that kind of depth that could make them an actual alternative to the known relationship.

If Tim and Bernard were given as much love and thought as Tim and Steph, then whose to say that it wouldn't become a valid relationship in it's own right with it's own depth and it's own strengths, while being completely different?

It's upon the DC higher ups to actually allow it to breathe and develop, as opposed to cutting it off at the knees before it has a chance to reach that point.

[Daedalus]

I don’t think anyone is under any delusions that his relationship with Bernard will be iconic. I don’t think you need to assume he’ll be with Bernard forever to be glad about this development. As witchboy mentioned, there’s hope for something with Conner, which I honestly think DC might do.

Besides, due to the cyclical nature of this hobby, I’m sure Tim and Steph will have their spotlight again in the not-too-distant future.

[Majesty]

I don’t think anyone is under any delusions that his relationship with Bernard will be iconic. I don’t think you need to assume he’ll be with Bernard forever to be glad about this development. As witchboy mentioned, there’s hope for something with Conner, which I honestly think DC might do.

Besides, due to the cyclical nature of this hobby, I’m sure Tim and Steph will have their spotlight again in the not-too-distant future.

No other character in DC that was main or main/secondary that has ever come out as bi has ever effected their OTP. They are either ultimately with their OTP or with no one. There's Harley and Ivy but that was talked about even back in the Timm days, and they aren't putting her back with the Joker so that didn't effect much of anything in guards of her relationships. And even then they've done everything in their power to take away Harley and Ivy's "official" relationship status in the main continuity comics over and over again.

Anyway! Let's look at some of the the other characters that came out. They are either with their OTP or they are with no one.

Catwoman: Came out, and nothing was done with that outside of one kiss. But she pretty much pined for Bruce only, afterwards.
Constantine: With no one
Wonder Woman: With Steve or with No one.
Supergirl: Maxima has feelings for her, but they aren't doing anything with that.

So given DC's track record, I doubt that it's the last they'll see of Stephanie and Tim.

However what I'd LIKE to see is them actually give Tim and Bernard's relationship a chance to breathe and develop into something, and be an actual consistent relationship with it's own strengths and just as valid in it's own right. Because that's what DC has a tendency to not do in relationships outside of the OTPs. So much so that whenever a DC character is paired with someone outside of that, I get worried DC won't let it actually grow and develop, because their MO is doing the relationship.. not letting it grow.. cutting it off at the legs.. so they can will they/won't they with their OTPs till they decide to put them together again and all other relationships in between are rarely treated with validity or time to grow and develop, even if they are far more interesting or less toxic or can be great in their own right. It's like clockwork sadly.

[Darkspellmaster]

Your concerns sound valid.
I would hope that more time given to the story would lead to better storytelling and characterization. The story has to be so compressed there's no breathing room right now. A solo Tim title and a team book for him - and a bigger presence for Steph too! - would allow for all this. I'd hope DC would take note of all the media buzz around Tim now and give him another series.
I think that some of the concerns of anime tropes will go away when another writer is writing Tim. I wouldn't expect the current writer to maintain control over Tim forever. And, if she goes on to do more work, perhaps will get a stronger voice and avoid the tropes. I don't object to her doing more at all, and the tropes might not be as painful in less compressed stories.
Damien being too supportive isn't at all the way I'd go. Damien shouldn't care about trivial things like orientation, but I would expect and want him to belittle Tim's boyfriends based on non-identity issues.

Thank you and I hope that you're right, maybe they will allow for more expanse on it in a longer way. And the compression has always been an issue given that comics have gotten less pages in recent years to tell their stories. I wouldn't mind having a solo again, but we already have Damian having the Robin title, so that's out. I don't see them pairing them up, and putting him in Batgirls would defeat the idea of that book being about the girls. Unless they give him back the Red Robin title, which would be nice. but it would compete with Damian's run right now. Maybe one with him and steph could work but with her on the Batgirls title, if that comes off the ground, it would mean you might have people complaining about her getting two books over Cass or Babs. I would love to see it, but I'm not holding my breath.

I mean I'm fine with Mariko, and I'm sure she can do a good job, but as you said this is so compressed so it makes it feel like we're ticking off check boxes rather than telling a story here. Yeah that's what I was thinking. Damian is still a smart-ass, he'd complain (and this is off the top of my head) that Tim has a type (Blonde and blue eyed), that Bernard's name is something rather old fashioned or something about his outfit being something that Jon's father would wear, or he'd comment on his fighting style or even not trusting him.

Also...and I'm trying to think here, does Bernard know Tim is Robin? Because in YJ it took him god knows how long to trust the others, even keeping double masks on when they were having a camping trip thing. So it's kind of OOC for him, if he has, to tell Bernard his secret this early. Heck he went kinda nuts when Steph found out.

The main thing is, characters need to actually get the chance to be as developed if they're going to reach that point. But DC has a tendency to usually cut off any pairings that aren't their OTPs off at the knees before they truly have a chance to breathe and gain that kind of depth that could make them an actual alternative to the known relationship.

If Tim and Bernard were given as much love and thought as Tim and Steph, then whose to say that it wouldn't become a valid relationship in it's own right with it's own depth and it's own strengths, while being completely different?

It's upon the DC higher ups to actually allow it to breathe and develop, as opposed to cutting it off at the knees before it has a chance to reach that point.

Yeah this is true, and I wouldn't mind them expanding on this, but the problem is that Bernard is ticking off the possibly a bad guy boxes for me. Which is kind of annoying since it won't work out in the end, or we're going to do a will they won't they for a long time, or something like that. Part of the issue is I think if a character doesn't take off then they tend to want to move on to the next thing.

Agreed, but my worry is that it won't be given that, and that, again, he comes off as a sort of suspect character in general. Unless of course it's just there as a drama driven story.Then it wouldn't matter how much breathing room it has if the end game is to have it be the idea of breaking the character for drama reasons. I don't think it's going to go that way but you never know.

I don’t think anyone is under any delusions that his relationship with Bernard will be iconic. I don’t think you need to assume he’ll be with Bernard forever to be glad about this development. As witchboy mentioned, there’s hope for something with Conner, which I honestly think DC might do.

Besides, due to the cyclical nature of this hobby, I’m sure Tim and Steph will have their spotlight again in the not-too-distant future.

Conner would work better just due to the long history. Unless they want to go for a civilian thing. I hope there's a chance for that. I mean I hope that both get a shot. But I'd be happier for Tim and Conner (even if I like Conner with Cassie more) or even Tim and Bart (as odd as that is) than for this character because I feel like he's coming off as a bit fast in the whole "perfect boyfriend" situation. I'm thinking of like some of the women that Bruce has dated where you can tell that there's something off about the character, that's what my gut is telling me as a reader.

No other character in DC that was main or main/secondary that has ever come out as bi has ever effected their OTP. They are either ultimately with their OTP or with no one. There's Harley and Ivy but that was talked about even back in the Timm days, and they aren't putting her back with the Joker so that didn't effect much of anything in guards of her relationships. And even then they've done everything in their power to take away Harley and Ivy's "official" relationship status in the main continuity comics over and over again.

That's interesting in and of itself, and I have to wonder if some of that comes from editors or writers or artist wanting Ivy to still be a villain and Harley having more of an anti-hero status. Like if they make her with Harley you can't really make her bad anymore because she's with a hero. it's like Bruce and Selena, unless they plan on making her stop stealing, he's not going to stick with her because she's a criminal.

Anyway! Let's look at some of the the other characters that came out. They are either with their OTP or they are with no one.

Catwoman: Came out, and nothing was done with that outside of one kiss. But she pretty much pined for Bruce only, afterwards.
Constantine: With no one
Wonder Woman: With Steve or with No one.
Supergirl: Maxima has feelings for her, but they aren't doing anything with that.

So given DC's track record, I doubt that it's the last they'll see of Stephanie and Tim.

On Catwoman I think a lot of that comes from the fact that a lot of writers enjoy that whole will they won't they thing. If they had a female character that was like Bruce, and I'm not counting Kate here as they are different characters in a lot of ways, I think you might see more of the whole Bi aspect, but right now no writer is setting anyone up for that.

I know Constantine was with a guy for several issues but then he died. He was with Zee for a while, but I think that's gone now, and then there was his wife in Vertigo (I miss her as she was I think Bi herself). But Yeah no one right now.

Wonder Woman is a hard one to do with anyone, even Steve as I've seen. Namely because you would need a character that was either a civilian who is charismatic, not a villain, or a hero character (see Superman), and likely wouldn't get overshadowed by her at points.

I did not know that.

I can hope that at some point they will, but I'm willing to see Tim explore some, my only request is don't pull an iceman and put him as wallpaper and if you do have him with someone, don't screw him over like Kyle is in regard to Northstar and only using him when convenient to be a mouthpiece.

However what I'd LIKE to see is them actually give Tim and Bernard's relationship a chance to breathe and develop into something, and be an actual consistent relationship with it's own strengths and just as valid in it's own right. Because that's what DC has a tendency to not do in relationships outside of the OTPs. So much so that whenever a DC character is paired with someone outside of that, I get worried DC won't let it actually grow and develop, because their MO is doing the relationship.. not letting it grow.. cutting it off at the legs.. so they can will they/won't they with their OTPs till they decide to put them together again and all other relationships in between are rarely treated with validity or time to grow and develop, even if they are far more interesting or less toxic or can be great in their own right. It's like clockwork sadly.

I'm trying to think here of any pairings recently that have been allowed to grow past a point due to the whole no marriage thing, Super hero's can't be happy train of thought. I mean some character's just click well in general even if writers try to put them with other characters. See Batwoman and Renee. Just the pairing goes off well, same with Dick and Babs. But I agree, some romances need a chance to grow, others you can tell the writer wants it to work but the characters don't click and you need to ditch those quick because then they feel forced. See peter and Carlie from Spider-man, vs. Peter and Michelle or Peter and Jean DeWolf.

[Daedalus]

Also...and I'm trying to think here, does Bernard know Tim is Robin? Because in YJ it took him god knows how long to trust the others, even keeping double masks on when they were having a camping trip thing. So it's kind of OOC for him, if he has, to tell Bernard his secret this early. Heck he went kinda nuts when Steph found out.

To be fair to Tim, finding out the identity of one member of the Batfamily pretty much gives away the identity of everyone else. There's reason to be extra cautious, though I don't think that's explicitly addressed.

[Restingvoice]

I'm looking up some pretty pictures and stumble on this from Robin 120



So before he became a possible dictator of an alternate future he imagined Barbara doing the same huh

[Dr.Octagon]

They don't have to make a poll to decide his sexuality.

That's not how story telling works. The writers wanted to tell a story about Tim realizing he was bi sexual and DC was okay with it. That's all there is to it. It does not taint any previous stories told with the character.

DC used to be about telling great stories and making money.

Turning an established straight character bisexual at the click of the fingers is not good story telling.

Realistically the Decision to make Tim Bisexual is going to disappoint roughly 95% of Tim’s longtime readers.

Whilst simultaneously only appeal to about 5% of the remainder minority of readership.

So it’s both a terrible decision both financially and thematically.

[Dr.Octagon]

Thank you and I hope that you're right, maybe they will allow for more expanse on it in a longer way. And the compression has always been an issue given that comics have gotten less pages in recent years to tell their stories. I wouldn't mind having a solo again, but we already have Damian having the Robin title, so that's out. I don't see them pairing them up, and putting him in Batgirls would defeat the idea of that book being about the girls. Unless they give him back the Red Robin title, which would be nice. but it would compete with Damian's run right now. Maybe one with him and steph could work but with her on the Batgirls title, if that comes off the ground, it would mean you might have people complaining about her getting two books over Cass or Babs. I would love to see it, but I'm not holding my breath.

I mean I'm fine with Mariko, and I'm sure she can do a good job, but as you said this is so compressed so it makes it feel like we're ticking off check boxes rather than telling a story here. Yeah that's what I was thinking. Damian is still a smart-ass, he'd complain (and this is off the top of my head) that Tim has a type (Blonde and blue eyed), that Bernard's name is something rather old fashioned or something about his outfit being something that Jon's father would wear, or he'd comment on his fighting style or even not trusting him.

Also...and I'm trying to think here, does Bernard know Tim is Robin? Because in YJ it took him god knows how long to trust the others, even keeping double masks on when they were having a camping trip thing. So it's kind of OOC for him, if he has, to tell Bernard his secret this early. Heck he went kinda nuts when Steph found out.



Yeah this is true, and I wouldn't mind them expanding on this, but the problem is that Bernard is ticking off the possibly a bad guy boxes for me. Which is kind of annoying since it won't work out in the end, or we're going to do a will they won't they for a long time, or something like that. Part of the issue is I think if a character doesn't take off then they tend to want to move on to the next thing.

Agreed, but my worry is that it won't be given that, and that, again, he comes off as a sort of suspect character in general. Unless of course it's just there as a drama driven story.Then it wouldn't matter how much breathing room it has if the end game is to have it be the idea of breaking the character for drama reasons. I don't think it's going to go that way but you never know.



Conner would work better just due to the long history. Unless they want to go for a civilian thing. I hope there's a chance for that. I mean I hope that both get a shot. But I'd be happier for Tim and Conner (even if I like Conner with Cassie more) or even Tim and Bart (as odd as that is) than for this character because I feel like he's coming off as a bit fast in the whole "perfect boyfriend" situation. I'm thinking of like some of the women that Bruce has dated where you can tell that there's something off about the character, that's what my gut is telling me as a reader.



That's interesting in and of itself, and I have to wonder if some of that comes from editors or writers or artist wanting Ivy to still be a villain and Harley having more of an anti-hero status. Like if they make her with Harley you can't really make her bad anymore because she's with a hero. it's like Bruce and Selena, unless they plan on making her stop stealing, he's not going to stick with her because she's a criminal.



On Catwoman I think a lot of that comes from the fact that a lot of writers enjoy that whole will they won't they thing. If they had a female character that was like Bruce, and I'm not counting Kate here as they are different characters in a lot of ways, I think you might see more of the whole Bi aspect, but right now no writer is setting anyone up for that.

I know Constantine was with a guy for several issues but then he died. He was with Zee for a while, but I think that's gone now, and then there was his wife in Vertigo (I miss her as she was I think Bi herself). But Yeah no one right now.

Wonder Woman is a hard one to do with anyone, even Steve as I've seen. Namely because you would need a character that was either a civilian who is charismatic, not a villain, or a hero character (see Superman), and likely wouldn't get overshadowed by her at points.

I did not know that.

I can hope that at some point they will, but I'm willing to see Tim explore some, my only request is don't pull an iceman and put him as wallpaper and if you do have him with someone, don't screw him over like Kyle is in regard to Northstar and only using him when convenient to be a mouthpiece.



I'm trying to think here of any pairings recently that have been allowed to grow past a point due to the whole no marriage thing, Super hero's can't be happy train of thought. I mean some character's just click well in general even if writers try to put them with other characters. See Batwoman and Renee. Just the pairing goes off well, same with Dick and Babs. But I agree, some romances need a chance to grow, others you can tell the writer wants it to work but the characters don't click and you need to ditch those quick because then they feel forced. See peter and Carlie from Spider-man, vs. Peter and Michelle or Peter and Jean DeWolf.

I think it’s been confirmed that Conner Kent Current Superman is going to come out as Gay.
Surely a Relationship between Tim & Conner would have been a better editorial decision as both are established characters.
I’m sure the Storyline would have been enthralling!
They could put all the Super Hero heroics on the back burner for 12 issues,get in a solid writer like Vita Ayala or Mags Visaggio and really concentrate on analyzing Tim & Conners feelings for each other for a year! Would be so thrilling!!

[OBrianTallent]

DC used to be about telling great stories and making money.

Turning an established straight character bisexual at the click of the fingers is not good story telling.

Realistically the Decision to make Tim Bisexual is going to disappoint roughly 95% of Tim’s longtime readers.

Whilst simultaneously only appeal to about 5% of the remainder minority of readership.

So it’s both a terrible decision both financially and thematically.

While I dont think it's quite that cut and dried, there will be a contingent that doesn't care one way or the other. However....

I think it’s been confirmed that Conner Kent Current Superman is going to come out as Gay.
Surely a Relationship between Tim & Conner would have been a better editorial decision as both are established characters.
I’m sure the Storyline would have been enthralling!
They could put all the Super Hero heroics on the back burner for 12 issues,get in a solid writer like Vita Ayala or Mags Visaggio and really concentrate on analyzing Tim & Conners feelings for each other for a year! Would be so thrilling!!

Now it's being highly speculated that it will be Jon that is gay/bi. So I dont think we will see the Conner/Tim relationship as I am not sure that DC will be so bold as to make both their Superman and their Superboy queer. However, at this point, it seems like they are just checking boxes and not really looking for good stories any more, just checking boxes to keep the headlines happy.


Forgot what was to be my actual point. At this point, they really need to put some work into re-branding Tim with a different secret identity that's good and not dumb (drake...really?) and give him another series, otherwise, what's the point of the change if for nothing but the attention grab. DC seems to have gone from Crisis to Crisis mode to attention grabs by checking off boxes and not really delivering on any kind of content.

[Daedalus]

DC used to be about telling great stories and making money.

DC is still very much about that - they are a company, and in that company

Turning an established straight character bisexual at the click of the fingers is not good story telling.

Was he ever established as straight?

Clearly he wasn't, since artists were discussing this among themselves 15 years ago.

Realistically the Decision to make Tim Bisexual is going to disappoint roughly 95% of Tim’s longtime readers.

Whilst simultaneously only appeal to about 5% of the remainder minority of readership.

And you got those numbers from…. Where?

[Digifiend]

I think it’s been confirmed that Conner Kent Current Superman is going to come out as Gay.

It hasn't, and Conner is still Superboy. There's rumours that JON will turn out to be queer, and Jon's the one who just became Superman.

[hairys]

Was he ever established as straight?

Clearly he wasn't, since artists were discussing this among themselves 15 years ago.

By your weird definition of "established," virtually no character in comics has been established as straight. You don't think creators have talked off-panel about Bruce being gay, for example? I mean, the rumors/meme of Batman and Robin being gay for each other have been around for decades, so does that mean Bruce isn't straight?

For most reasonable people, 30 years of Tim on panel only dating girls and never having thought bubbles where he's crushing on other dudes, is enough to establish him as straight.

Why does it matter anyway? From a left-wing point of view, increasing LGBT representation is a good thing, and if creators are too lazy/impatient to invent new characters and wait years and years for them to build a following, then they have to basically turn established characters gay. Can't make omelets without breaking a few eggs, essentially. Embrace it, don't hide from it, and don't attempt to gaslight 30 years of a character's history.