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  1. #541
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    And yet, they're both in continuity.
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  2. #542
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    I agree that he's the original version at this point. With that said, Death Metal brought everything into continuity, which includes Tim's New 52 origin and adventures — as in, he remembers them as well as his 90s origin, as does everyone else who was involved. Still, I think that Tim identifies with the 90s origin more than the New 52 one; his characterization in Urban Legends #4 certainly aligns better with the pre-Flashpoint Tim than with the N52 one.

    And “everything's back in continuity” also addresses the matter of whether or not the Red Robin series happened. Like everything else, it did. And with that in mind, I won't mind one bit of this story arc ends with Tim deciding to go back to being Red Robin and picking up right where the last issue of that series left off. While I have some problems with his characterization in the latter half of that series, it's still a much better place for him to be than “Damian's substitute”.
    The origin is flat out incompatible, and thus is overwritten, but yeah, New 52 Teen Titans, where he made the majority of his appearances in that era, still happened. Bunker showing up in Teen Titans Academy proves that.
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  3. #543
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    It all happened. Even the stuff that's contradictory. All former timelines have been “unlocked” and are available for use. Superman debuted in 1938. Superman debuted in 1956. Superman debuted in 1986. And so on. And Superman remembers all of his debuts, despite them being mutually incompatible. And so does everyone else.

    Likewise with Tim's multiple origins. If there's an iteration of the main DCU where it happened, then it happened.
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  4. #544
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Tim has become another DC character with jacked up origins. Why they decided to make "everything" continuity in Death Metal is beyond me. They really only needed to keep Court of Owls and some GL stuff from New 52, they rest of it could have been wiped away.
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  5. #545
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    But that's you. And one of the reasons the New 52 ended up the way that it did was that the various editorial teams were themselves picking and choosing those aspects of the pre-Flashpoint DCU that they wanted to keep and tossed the rest. Ask fans of Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Cain, and Wally West what they thought of DC selecting what is and isn't in canon.
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  6. #546
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    In many ways this is why Dc and Marvel many times can be losing sales. I mean they been rebooting their universes and characters a bit too much and not only that but right now there is way too many ooc moments where it doesn't feel like the same character. You think that Dc would have a bit more togetherness. Instead there are retcons upon retcons in other books or in the same book. If they just stay with one thing all across the board it can be more hopefully in the long help them.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 06-16-2021 at 08:01 PM.

  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    In many ways this is why Dc and Marvel many times can be losing sales. I mean they been rebooting their universes and characters a bit too much and not only that but right now there is way too many ooc moments where it doesn't feel like the same character. You think that Dc would have a bit more togetherness. Instead there are retcons upon retcons in other books or in the same book. If they just stay with one thing all across the board it can be more hopefully in the long help them.
    If DC wasn’t trying to satisfy every type of fan at once it would (hopefully) be less of an issue. I’ve been watching this thread to see what is going on with Tim, since I don’t really read him, and I think unless the writers have a plan that comes out of what is currently going on, it proves (IMO) to be an effect of trying to keep everyone happy- if everything counts yet contradicts (including personality) you might as well not use the character... or reboot them.

    I think that’s the biggest problem- DC wants to reboot without committing. If DC had legitimately and fully rebooted everyone, including Bats and GL at the beginning of New 52 and stuck with it things would be a lot different now. I’m not saying that’s better, but at the very least things would be clear.

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forlorn View Post
    If DC wasn’t trying to satisfy every type of fan at once it would (hopefully) be less of an issue. I’ve been watching this thread to see what is going on with Tim, since I don’t really read him, and I think unless the writers have a plan that comes out of what is currently going on, it proves (IMO) to be an effect of trying to keep everyone happy- if everything counts yet contradicts (including personality) you might as well not use the character... or reboot them.

    I think that’s the biggest problem- DC wants to reboot without committing. If DC had legitimately and fully rebooted everyone, including Bats and GL at the beginning of New 52 and stuck with it things would be a lot different now. I’m not saying that’s better, but at the very least things would be clear.
    The “flexible continuity” idea basically relies on individual writers to prove themselves great at writing their own stories and choosing which stories and interpretations to flow from.

    For the Bat-Books, I’d say the “mandated” New 52 changes were the least intelligent ones, compared to the way they allowed most of the Bat-Books to do what retcons they wanted when they wanted. Part of the reason New 52 Tim was handled worse than other members was because he was in Scott Lobdell’s hands, and for whatever reason, Lobdell was a lot more Gung Ho at following some of editorial’s more arbitrary and meaningless reboot demands with Teen Titans than he was with the Red Hood book.

    …Overall, I think if I was writing Tim or his old Young Justice teammates, I would just ignore everything about the New 52. Only Bunker really came out of the New 52 Teen Titans with a positive reputation.
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  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    The “flexible continuity” idea basically relies on individual writers to prove themselves great at writing their own stories and choosing which stories and interpretations to flow from.

    For the Bat-Books, I’d say the “mandated” New 52 changes were the least intelligent ones, compared to the way they allowed most of the Bat-Books to do what retcons they wanted when they wanted. Part of the reason New 52 Tim was handled worse than other members was because he was in Scott Lobdell’s hands, and for whatever reason, Lobdell was a lot more Gung Ho at following some of editorial’s more arbitrary and meaningless reboot demands with Teen Titans than he was with the Red Hood book.

    …Overall, I think if I was writing Tim or his old Young Justice teammates, I would just ignore everything about the New 52. Only Bunker really came out of the New 52 Teen Titans with a positive reputation.
    ‘Let’s Just Ignore This and/or That’ is how we got into this mess.

    “We’ll pretend to start over this character…but not that character”; “This paramount team of heroes will meet for the first time…but that team of their former sidekicks has been around for over a decade”; “This team was always on this earth and never on Earth 2”; “Superman is the world’s first superhero…while we simultaneously have 5 Robins, 3 Batgirls, 5 Green Lanterns and etcetera.”

    Trust me, I would love to ignore “A Death in the Family” and “The Killing Joke”. I also have no fondness for “The Dark Knight Returns” or “The Watchmen”. But I have watched ‘Ignore This and/or That but Not the Other’ in action for decades and it does not work.

    While ‘Everything happened” is unclear…it is simple.

  10. #550
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Exactly. People talk about doing a “clean reboot”; but in practice, it's never clean. There are always unintended consequences to anything they change; and if they were to sit down and work out all of the potential consequences of a given change before they make it, they'd spend all of their time thinking through the ramifications and would never have time to actually do anything.
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  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    ‘Let’s Just Ignore This and/or That’ is how we got into this mess.

    “We’ll pretend to start over this character…but not that character”; “This paramount team of heroes will meet for the first time…but that team of their former sidekicks has been around for over a decade”; “This team was always on this earth and never on Earth 2”; “Superman is the world’s first superhero…while we simultaneously have 5 Robins, 3 Batgirls, 5 Green Lanterns and etcetera.”

    Trust me, I would love to ignore “A Death in the Family” and “The Killing Joke”. I also have no fondness for “The Dark Knight Returns” or “The Watchmen”. But I have watched ‘Ignore This and/or That but Not the Other’ in action for decades and it does not work.

    While ‘Everything happened” is unclear…it is simple.
    My objection would be that just because this hypothetical “I” would ignore it doesn’t mean anyone else has to… and that unless there’s a very specific moment where “my” story outright contradicts something specific to the New 52, it’s a non-issue *and yet* part and parcel of the new system as well.

    I’m not arguing for a perpetual moratorium on the New 52 stuff for Tim; I’m predicting and encouraging more focus away from that era for him in general, that most writers are likely to de facto ignore most of it when constructing their backstory for their next adventure (if they need one) and being more wary about referencing it outright unless they have a good incentive to do so.

    For instance, if you want to write a story with a Cassie Sandsmark guest appearance, it feels more intuitive to do so by looking at her appearance in either OG!Young Justice or in Johns’s Titan runs for any previous adventures and relationships she has with Tim… but that doesn’t mean you’re declaring the Lobdell era verboten.

    It just means you likely have greater taste and greater understanding of your audience.

    Now, to point out what I mean by a “good incentive” would be, if say, “I” wanted to play around with Tim’s family again in a major role - where I might actually incorporate the Lobdell idea of a Witness Protection Program reason for them being “gone”… albeit I would only acknoweldge that when I want to bring them in as a constant presence in the story; “I’d” only acknoweldge them as alive if they have dialogue, are constantly in Tim’s thoughts, and their survival is necessary to the plot and attitude of the book. (I always thought it was a weirdly contradictory move on Lobdell’s part anyways to have them alive but not matter.)
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  12. #552
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    My objection would be that just because this hypothetical “I” would ignore it doesn’t mean anyone else has to… and that unless there’s a very specific moment where “my” story outright contradicts something specific to the New 52, it’s a non-issue *and yet* part and parcel of the new system as well.

    I’m not arguing for a perpetual moratorium on the New 52 stuff for Tim; I’m predicting and encouraging more focus away from that era for him in general, that most writers are likely to de facto ignore most of it when constructing their backstory for their next adventure (if they need one) and being more wary about referencing it outright unless they have a good incentive to do so.

    For instance, if you want to write a story with a Cassie Sandsmark guest appearance, it feels more intuitive to do so by looking at her appearance in either OG!Young Justice or in Johns’s Titan runs for any previous adventures and relationships she has with Tim… but that doesn’t mean you’re declaring the Lobdell era verboten.

    It just means you likely have greater taste and greater understanding of your audience.

    Now, to point out what I mean by a “good incentive” would be, if say, “I” wanted to play around with Tim’s family again in a major role - where I might actually incorporate the Lobdell idea of a Witness Protection Program reason for them being “gone”… albeit I would only acknoweldge that when I want to bring them in as a constant presence in the story; “I’d” only acknoweldge them as alive if they have dialogue, are constantly in Tim’s thoughts, and their survival is necessary to the plot and attitude of the book. (I always thought it was a weirdly contradictory move on Lobdell’s part anyways to have them alive but not matter.)
    That's pretty much my view on it, too: in brief, concentrate on what matters to the stories currently being told, and focus more on what did happen rather than what didn't. Especially with “It all happened” in force.
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  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    That's pretty much my view on it, too: in brief, concentrate on what matters to the stories currently being told, and focus more on what did happen rather than what didn't. Especially with “It all happened” in force.
    Exactly. The only thing I would say is that editors should work at more “positive feedback” reviews of some material with some characters - if someone wanted to follow-up on Cassie and Tim sleeping together/being coerced into dubiously consensual sex in Lobdell’s Teen Titans run, for instance, the editors should probably talk them through every reason audience members might be perturbed or turned off by that…
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  14. #554
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Exactly. The only thing I would say is that editors should work at more “positive feedback” reviews of some material with some characters - if someone wanted to follow-up on Cassie and Tim sleeping together/being coerced into dubiously consensual sex in Lobdell’s Teen Titans run, for instance, the editors should probably talk them through every reason audience members might be perturbed or turned off by that…
    Yeah; “it all happened” means that some… “questionable” material happened, too: for example, back in the silver age, there was a story about how Superboy became Superman which involved some manipulator with mind control powers basically turning a regular girl into a sex toy for Clark. Technically, “It all happened” means that that happened, too. But that doesn't mean that we have to dwell on it.
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  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Exactly. People talk about doing a “clean reboot”; but in practice, it's never clean. There are always unintended consequences to anything they change; and if they were to sit down and work out all of the potential consequences of a given change before they make it, they'd spend all of their time thinking through the ramifications and would never have time to actually do anything.
    Agreed. 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Yeah; “it all happened” means that some… “questionable” material happened, too: for example, back in the silver age, there was a story about how Superboy became Superman which involved some manipulator with mind control powers basically turning a regular girl into a sex toy for Clark. Technically, “It all happened” means that that happened, too. But that doesn't mean that we have to dwell on it.
    Yep. There are too many just bad stories through the decades. For example, Batwoman (Kathy Kane) was treated very shabbily during the Silver Age; and then killed.

    It happened. Don't dwell.
    Last edited by scary harpy; 06-17-2021 at 06:16 PM.

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