Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[witchboy]

There might be less resistance to Tim now being with Stephanie if we had more prominent male couples.
You can't hardly blame people for that being a priority now when we're starved for representation.

[Majesty]

Why did it take over 70 years for WW to get her own movie?

Why havent we gotten a gay/lesbian Bachelor after a decade?

While we have come a long way with acceptance we are still thousands of miles away from outright acceptance esp in the media. Comics are still very much a straight boys club. The big boss over Marvel media didn't even believe that women could carry a film. Disney still cant have outright gay characters in their films.

Yes, and whenever that "new original lgbt hero" is made, the same people saying 'just make a new lgbt character instead of adding more to previous ones' will be in the crowd calling the new lgbt hero 'pandering' and 'woke' and won't support it anyway.

And thats true about Disney, which is why they've had about 5 "first gay characters" in their movies that wind up not being confirmed, or leaned on with subtext, or somewhere in the background.

The Owl House is the closest thing Disney has gotten to doing something LGBT in an animated front with main characters. Till then it most of their animated media it was subtext city, just like in comics.

[Primal Slayer]

Yes, and whenever that "new original lgbt hero" is made, the same people saying 'just make a new lgbt character instead of adding more to previous ones' will be in the crowd calling the new lgbt hero 'pandering' and 'woke' and won't support it anyway.

And thats true about Disney, which is why they've had about 5 "first gay characters" in their movies that wind up not being confirmed, or leaned on with subtext, or somewhere in the background.

The Owl House is the closest thing Disney has gotten to doing something LGBT in an animated front with main characters. Till then it most of their animated media it was subtext city, just like in comics.

Exactly. We had Bunker who was out and proud and look where he is? He was part of Teen Titans and is already an afterthought. In this kind of medium either you area HIt out of the gate or you are just going to be around for a year and then just be one of hundreds of characters that go back into the toy box. Robins however....will be around forever. Some of their popularity may go in/out throughout the years but they are going to be featured somewhere.

[AmiMizuno]

A fair point. Though one could argue that not every reaction to every LGBTQ person need be the same.

My larger point wasn't that I WANT some BatFam member to be homophobic. I don't. It's that I want Tim to have to confront that kind of attitude and really process what this might mean to him and how to handle that kind of stuff. And it's always more traumatic when it comes from someone close to you, whom you hoped you could trust to support you. Family, or close friends.

For a point of reference, I refer to the same friend I mentioned in my earlier post. We had been friends for years, always had each other's back and could rely on each other for anything. But he was visibly terrified when he told me. And I know from talking to other members of our social circle that they saw the same thing when he came out to them. He was deathly afraid that we would abandon him, turn him away, or reject him. Because his own parents did it to him when he told them. Now, they eventually reconciled and all is well that ends well. But that kind of drama, and trauma, makes for a better story than it does a real life experience.

The issue is Dick and Bruce already have been around lgbt characters and are fine with it. Babs I do question if you could be slightly homophobic.

Like no one really has that big a issue with Harley/ Ivy or Wonder Woman. Iceman is gay and we have Storm. I do think it really is about the characters themselves. When they go for the reveal that they have been gay or bi this whole time.

[Triniking1234]

But where did it say ever that Tim Drake was only into women and was 100% straight?

If the argument is "Well all the relationships we've seen till now have been with women, so how can he be bisexual?" doesn't really hold much weight as it means Tim Drake is attracted to multiple genders. So him 'dating women' doesn't make him not bisexual, and only those with a limited understanding of bisexuality would assume that. The kind of people that think "If he hasn't dated an equal amount of men and women he's not bisexual".

But there's always been hints thrown at Tim's sexuality over the years, and a lot of people interpreted moments between him and Connor as being more than just friendship but were pretty much told they were 'reading too much into it' and 'unless it's confirmed it isn't canon!' but then it gets confirmed and those same people go "What!?!? We never saw this coming!!"

It's why Storm can be written in many situations with women, or being intimate or kissing them, or even having an implied relationship with Yukio across years of evidence and heavy implications(some not even just implications) but people still go "But has it been OFFICIALLY said..." to stand on in order to invalidate it. It's why "implying" is that grey area that comics were allowed to get away with where they 'say it without saying it' and some people notice and acknowledge it, while others can have plausible deniability that it's a thing and its just a 'battle between shippers' or such.

There's a lot of companies and people that would rather 'throw in a bunch of implications' and then let the fandom do the rest rather than confirming it outright. So whenever a character is allowed to be confirmed, it's considered a victory.

And there's been many stop/starts to confirming things about a character. Lest we count how many times the X-Men series has done this with Jubilee. Or how many were going to happen, like Shrinking Violet and Lightning Lass only for other things to happen.

Chris Claremont, the darn creator/writer of Kitty Pryde(created 1980) said that he intended Rachel Summers(created 1981 also by him) to be her one true love and her endgame relationship. But we had to wait 40 years before she actually was allowed to kiss another girl in a comic panel because the only thing they could get away with was subtext. We had to watch her bond/crush on Illyana and vice versa be treated mostly through subtext because of what they weren't allowed to say. We had to watch her and Rachel Summers not be allowed to actively pursue a relationship in the comics, and just do stuff through subtext despite their creator writing them to be endgame. But he wasn't allowed to fully go through with it due to stricter censorship rules during the 1980s. And it took 40 years before they were allowed to confirm her despite the fact he created her as bisexual 40 years ago, but they could only get away with subtext.

So consider that someone that created a character to be bisexual/pan etc and even had her one true love thought of. It took 40 years from her creation before a comic panel allowed her to kiss another woman. That should speak volumes about how hard it is to get these things through, even when the creator of that character intended for them to be bi/lesbian/gay from the get go, it took 40 years before it was able to be 'confirmed' outside of subtext.

Just something to think about.

So basically past stories don't matter and you can whatever you want.

Also if you're close friends with somebody, you're probably sexually attracted to them. That was a lot of words for two simple points.

[Frontier]

There might be less resistance to Tim now being with Stephanie if we had more prominent male couples.
You can't hardly blame people for that being a priority now when we're starved for representation.

Well, if he's bi, I don't think anyone can really complain about him being in a relationship with someone he's been paired with for years and has spent a good deal of comics developing his relationship with.

This reminds me of when they promoted Catwoman being bisexual and then we got several years worth of stories about how Batman is her one true love.

[Aahz]

At this point maybe they also should fix his age. Because he goes from teen to young adult in his 20. How old is Jason because he should be closer to Jason's age

Jason's age has never really been stated since Flashpoint.

Before Flashpoint the last time was at the beginning of War Games, where they had an issues where he would have had his 18th birthday.

But Jason's age is also kind of all over the place, he is often treated like he was relatively close in age to Dick's generation, even if he should be far younger and relatively close to Tim's age.

[Majesty]

So basically past stories don't matter and you can whatever you want.

Also if you're close friends with somebody, you're probably sexually attracted to them. That was a lot of words for two simple points.

No clue how either point could even be taken that way. it was pretty straight forward.

1) Tim Drake has never been confirmed as straight, and him dating/being attracted to women doesn't mean he isn't bisexual. Pretty simple.
'So past stories don't matter!' unless you have a comic panel of Tim Drake going "I'm so straight! I'm 100% straight. I'm only into women no matter what people say!" then the only evidence to be stood on that he wasn't bi was "he's dated girls" which means nothing in terms of disproving someone's bisexuality. It wouldn't disprove anyone being gay/lesbian either. People get married in hetero relationships for 20+ years and have kids, but still come out as gay/lesbian later in life when they have come to terms with their sexuality.

It's why the old saying goes "It doesn't matter how much of the 'opposite sex' you dated before you came out." Lesbians have had boyfriends and husbands, Gay men have had girlfriends and wives. And it didn't mean they 'weren't really gay' when they came out.

However this isn't even the case with Tim, because he's bisexual, him dating Stephanie doesn't mean he wasn't. <--- the TLDR version for you. Don't know how you interpreted that as "past stories don't matter!".

2) There were hints and subtext given to Drake that hinted at his sexuality. And his bond with Connor was just an example of a few moments where there was a lot of that.

Can two guys can be friends without romantic feelings? Of course. Even when one or both of those guys are gay/bi. Just like a guy and a girl can be just friends no matter the orientations, and just like two girls can be. And there can also be romantic feelings or attraction between the exact same scenarios. It would be nice though if the people that scream so loud about "Two guys/girls can be super close and affectionately close without there being romantic implications!!" were as up in arms about why 95% of the time a(straight/bi) woman is in a scene with a shirtless male it's portrayed with some kind of sexual tension, even if they'd just been extremely hostile towards each other 30 seconds earlier. Oh well.

All depends on how you wish to interpret the context and the subtext. There were people that caught onto the subtext of characters like Kitty Pryde, and then there was a group of people that refused to see it as anything other than friendship because they hadn't 'outright said it'. The people that ignore that subtext existed because it was all we were allowed to have, and simplify it down to essentially 'lol shippers' whenever subtext/framing that isn't straight is potentially called out as potentially anything other than straight. Tim Drake's feelings for Connor can be interpreted as best friendship, romantic, or anything in between. But Tim's bisexuality being confirmed also means that people that read into the hints/clues/subtext about Tim Drake over the years weren't 'overthinking' and that there isn't much argument anymore that it is impossible to perceive things that way. Hurray...we might be able to finally say "There may be more to this." without having "Why must you make everything gay?! Stop reading so much into it!!" yelled at us for now. Oh joy!!


I personally don't get why the people that always ask for 'proof' when people recognize/acknowledge subtext, get mad when 'proof' happens and subtext becomes official.

There might be less resistance to Tim now being with Stephanie if we had more prominent male couples.
You can't hardly blame people for that being a priority now when we're starved for representation.

Well, if he's bi, I don't think anyone can really complain about him being in a relationship with someone he's been paired with for years and has spent a good deal of comics developing his relationship with.

This reminds me of when they promoted Catwoman being bisexual and then we got several years worth of stories about how Batman is her one true love.

Which is why it's so interesting why people go "Oh now that this character is bi they will ONLY date the same sex!!! They're ruined!!!"

Almost like when Felicia Hardy comes out as bi... does she have a girlfriend yet? Or does she mostly pine over Peter in some way/shape/form?

Catwoman comes out as bi... and kisses Holly Robinson whom is lesbian. Are the several years of hints about her and Holly built upon? Nope, Holly gets a girlfriend that isn't Selena Kyle and Selena pines over how Batman is her true love for years and years after.. and still now.

Wonder Woman is bi/pan... she has yet to have a girlfriend the DC main continuity. Aside from her panel talking about the many girlfriends on Themyscara she's had intimate relationships with (we see maybe one of them in a single panel). Has there been any girlfriends for Wonder Woman? Any long term relationships with other women? Or was merely a bunch of subtext given in her story with Cheetah(whom was lesbian) that we all ate up and were HOPING FOR SOMETHING TO COME OF IT(or her relationship with Etta), but has that ever been built upon since then? Nope...

If Diana showed up one day in a serious relationship with Barbara Minerva we'd be shocked. Not because it wouldn't have made sense, given all the subtext their relationship was given. But because they actually decided to do something with it outside of 'give them just enough and then let them figure it out'. That's the difference. Heck, even build on Barbara and Etta more X_X something.

So trust, if all the main/semi important characters that have been revealed to be bi/pan started only dating the same gender, Catwoman wouldn't be with Bruce, Diana wouldn't be with Steve, Felicia wouldn't be pining over Peter the majority of the time.

I'm glad that they're actually building on what they already had there though with Tim, that makes me happy.

[Badou]

Also if you're close friends with somebody, you're probably sexually attracted to them.

I really hate shipping culture. Two people can't just be close and love each other as friends without so many wanting those feelings to turn romantic. I feel like in the West, at least in the US, it is really bad with it. Maybe it is a cultural or a language thing as I know some other countries have different words for love for different types of relationships while the English language is kind of broad with it. I dunno.

[Zaresh]

What I get from all this issue is, that to my surprise, there's plenty of people in the USA that don't understand what being Bi means. It's not a difficult concept to get, but many people apparently can't.

It makes me wonder if people can also understand the differences between romantic attraction, sexual atraction and libido. Because if the differences between heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality (and also pan, which is a different thing too) are difficult to understand, stuff way more subtle like the range of aro/allo and ace/allo, or pansexuality, is going to be a nightmare.

The ways of love, and the ways we love, and the ways we can have fun, are so, so wide. It varies from person from person a lot.

[dietrich]

A fair point. Though one could argue that not every reaction to every LGBTQ person need be the same.

My larger point wasn't that I WANT some BatFam member to be homophobic. I don't. It's that I want Tim to have to confront that kind of attitude and really process what this might mean to him and how to handle that kind of stuff. And it's always more traumatic when it comes from someone close to you, whom you hoped you could trust to support you. Family, or close friends.

For a point of reference, I refer to the same friend I mentioned in my earlier post. We had been friends for years, always had each other's back and could rely on each other for anything. But he was visibly terrified when he told me. And I know from talking to other members of our social circle that they saw the same thing when he came out to them. He was deathly afraid that we would abandon him, turn him away, or reject him. Because his own parents did it to him when he told them. Now, they eventually reconciled and all is well that ends well. But that kind of drama, and trauma, makes for a better story than it does a real life experience.

Maybe Conner could be homophobic. He's Tim's very close pal.

See how silly that sounds?

No one should be Homophobic. You are suggesting that a character be thrown under the bus for Tim's Stroy which is grossly unfair.

Why force homophobia on a character that wasn't to start with?

[Majesty]

We've gone from the fear of a Robin being gay and therefore 'making children gay', causing the creation of the Comics Code Authority in the 50s.

To Tim Drake coming out as bisexual in 2021. It's a good day.

[Konja7]

What I get from all this issue is, that to my surprise, there's plenty of people in the USA that don't understand what being Bi means. It's not a difficult concept to get, but many people apparently can't.

Yeah, I noticed this. In this thread, a bi character was called heterosexual, because she is in a relationship with someone from the opposite sex. That's so wrong in many levels.

I guess it's because there is the expectative from characters to represent something. Also, comics really lacks the representation to show same sex couples.


A bisexual in a relationship with the opposite sex is a similar situation to a mixed race character being white passing. The character doesn't stop to be a minority, but many people won't count this as representation.

[Restingvoice]

Maybe Conner could be homophobic. He's Tim's very close pal.

See how silly that sounds?

No one should be Homophobic. You are suggesting that a character be thrown under the bus for Tim's Stroy which is grossly unfair.

Why force homophobia on a character that wasn't to start with?

Conner is very insecure when anyone try to refer himself as a girl or that he's close to a guy
When Tim refers to himself and Kon as impulse's parents "I'm not the mom okay! I'm not the mom!"
When Tim calls him his clone boy "You know what I'm gonna go see Cassie" or something like that
These are also the reason why many fans think he's secretly into guys because he's always go out of his way to reaffirm that he's heterosexual (one reaction to Urban Legends #6 I saw said they thought it's gonna be Conner who's into guys, not Tim)

[VolcanikTiger86]

There might be less resistance to Tim now being with Stephanie if we had more prominent male couples.
You can't hardly blame people for that being a priority now when we're starved for representation.

Yeah, I noticed this. In this thread, a bi character was called heterosexual, because she is in a relationship with someone from the opposite sex. That's so wrong in many levels.

I guess it's because there is the expectative from characters to represent something. Also, comics really lacks the representation to show same sex couples.


A bisexual in a relationship with the opposite sex is a similar situation to a mixed race character being white passing. The character doesn't stop to be a minority, but many people won't count this as representation.

I'm going to preface this with the fact that i am straight, so feel free to call me out if this isnt respectful because thats my intentation

I see two problems which strangely enough fall in line with my two issues on the subject.
1) Some fans are so protective of the characters that they have like witchboy said are starved for representation that they start making statements like this character is. in my opinion Tim isnt straight, gay or bi he is a fictional character that DC own.
DC can do anything they like with him and i can disagree but i can't complain but why do i complain in the first place which leads into the other issue
DC Comics/Hollywood and people have given many examples have proven they can't write a bi character and do it well, like i said i'm straight i could be bias but what i have found is general its bad.
Sara Lance from arrow is bi but considers sex with a male as 'damaged', when she compares males and females the females always win stuff like that
Emily Fields was LGBT but due to implications was changed into a lesbian because it would have been harder to write her as bi. Also even on these forums i have found that LGBT rep has to be with a member of the same sex you can't have a bisexual person with someone of the opposite sex because as Konja7 says it doesn't count.
I think the fear and i admit i have this fear to is that Tim now must in all iterations have a boyfriend regardless of any circumstances or reasons Tim must have a boyfriend in all stories and i have spoken about the lack of creative freedom.
I personally think that so long as you respect the character & their history then do whatever you like with them for example and this may trigger people so sorry but batwoman's story can be written with her being bi but her story doesn't work with her being straight so Katie has to be gay/bi.
And so if you don't do as your told then the LGBT mob will come for you and have your story removed and wiped from the internet because you are homophobic because you don't agree with them or because you aren't interested in writing certain couples, so if you don't like every gay character then you are in the wrong and homophobic.
Last time i checked not having a interest wasn't a crime.
My opinion we all have a headcannon like we have a opinion so long as we can respect each other than as i said before you do your thing, dc can do its thing and I'll do mine because they are fictional characters.
Stories deserve to be told and constructive criticism given
In closing i would like to add that this isn't everyone in the LGBT community truthfully i know of at least two users on this forum who have proven not to be like it. Don't know if they would agree with everything but at least some and i can work with it or I'm prepared to try.