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  1. #706
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    By the nature of comics he'll never be fully developed but he has been poorly developed.

  2. #707
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Eh. You're complaining about the packaging. I'm talking about the core of the character. Tim has a solid core.
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  3. #708
    Incredible Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Why don't they???

    What does Tim have that they don't? That you have to race change him?

    Why could he not stay the same way he was in comics?

    Oh could it be Tim has to pay for the failure of DC to develop POC?

    Tim held 3 minis & 2 solos. His books were not ruined by editors like Cyborg and Static and Black Lightning's run.

    He was not deemed toxic like Cassandra.

    Tim is a fully developed character. This race bending is nothing more than lazy folks trying to fill in a gap that guys like Duke have been denied or have had derailed.
    Tim Drake is the third Robin after Jason's death. That fact is unchangeable no matter what. He paired with Batman post Jason's death (which is not easy nor pretty). It's actually one of the most important aspects of him, so we can't give it to anyone because of their race. I think there's demands of more diversity on Titans so DC chose to launch the next Robin as POC, and it's more forgivable to race-bending Tim than put other characters on "Third Robin spot" (at least for me).

    A fully developed character doesn't prevent them to get racebending when there's demand. Nick Fury got racebending even though his status as SHIELD's leader is already prominent and I don't see many people complained about that. The fact that they changed Tim's origin bummed me indeed, but again if the core is the same (fans of Dick, guess Batman&Robin's identity based on that, took Robin's spot in Jason's absence), then I can roll with that

  4. #709
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    And his solid core is completely gone. What made him unique was that he was the most relatable in the Bat-Family with parents and friends and troubles at school. His parents are dead, his friends never show up, and he doesn't go to school. All of that is a result of him being developed into Red Robin. He was poorly developed.

  5. #710
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    The reason of race bending and other adjustments to the lore is simple, because they don't know when they're gonna get to the POC characters, so if they wanna be, or at least, look diverse they gotta do it now.

    It took them 40 years to even get a Tim in live action. How long do you think WB will get to Damian, or even Duke, when their priority is Batman, always, and always start a new Batman, from the beginning, again.

    I doubt we would've gotten a live action Titans series, if it's not for the success of Young Justice (that in turn, transferred some of Tim's team to Dick) and 2003 Teen Titans

    It took 10+ years for Damian to get into cartoon, and we're nearing another 10 years pass with no Damian live action, it's probably gonna be 20 years. Has Duke gotten a cameo in Young Justice? Then he will be in a cartoon as a feature in the next 10-20 years, and a live action in another 20 years. Cass Cain got her first live action feature after 20 years. Stephanie still none.

    All that is assuming they're not resetting a Batman universe from the beginning again, whether in movies, animated series, or live action, in which case, double that time.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 07-23-2021 at 05:18 PM.

  6. #711
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Arguing over someone's choice of code name is about as pointless as arguing over the color of their skin.
    Definitely not when the mantle of Robin carries as much thematic significance as it does
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
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  7. #712
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    And his solid core is completely gone. What made him unique was that he was the most relatable in the Bat-Family with parents and friends and troubles at school. His parents are dead, his friends never show up, and he doesn't go to school. All of that is a result of him being developed into Red Robin. He was poorly developed.
    you're still putting too much emphasis on the name. The destruction of Tim Drake started in 2003, when Dan Didio took over as his editor. That's when he started losing his supporting cast, at a record pace. By the time we got to his Red Robin years, the bulk of the damage had long since already been done. That said, the first half of his Red Robin series was actually good for him; it was actually repairing a lot of the damage that had been done up until then, and establishing a new status quo going forward. And then Flashpoint came along.

    I agree that Tim has been damaged. But checking boxes does not make a character interesting, as others have pointed out. They draw attention; but that's not the same thing. I'm not opposed to checking boxes, mind you; but these days, folks at DC seem to think that that's all that needs to be done. Heck, they seem to think that it's important to do so. Checking boxes with tim, whether it be skin color, sexual orientation, or even code name won't fix the core problem. Conversely, if you do fix the core problem, matters such as those checkboxes aren't really needed.
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  8. #713
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    My perception of Red Robin and the prior period of the Robin solo was that Dixon, Yost, and Nicieza successfully “made lemonade” from the “lemons” that DC had given Tim previously sometime after Dixon’s first run with the character.

    Which means that while I loved early Tim with his father, Steph, and a more modest and restrained portrayal as Robin, and *did* have complete disinterest and distaste for the War Games/OYL period… I regained a lot of respect and enjoyment for the more escapist but damaged and flawed Tim from the end of his first solo. I actually *like* paranoid Tim under Nicieza, because Nicieza portrays it as a flaw that contrasts with what is still a pretty strong undercurrent of his original portrayal.

    Admittedly, the issue is that paranoia is a difficult flaw to juggle with a character.
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  9. #714
    Incredible Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    you're still putting too much emphasis on the name. The destruction of Tim Drake started in 2003, when Dan Didio took over as his editor. That's when he started losing his supporting cast, at a record pace. By the time we got to his Red Robin years, the bulk of the damage had long since already been done. That said, the first half of his Red Robin series was actually good for him; it was actually repairing a lot of the damage that had been done up until then, and establishing a new status quo going forward. And then Flashpoint came along.

    I agree that Tim has been damaged. But checking boxes does not make a character interesting, as others have pointed out. They draw attention; but that's not the same thing. I'm not opposed to checking boxes, mind you; but these days, folks at DC seem to think that that's all that needs to be done. Heck, they seem to think that it's important to do so. Checking boxes with tim, whether it be skin color, sexual orientation, or even code name won't fix the core problem. Conversely, if you do fix the core problem, matters such as those checkboxes aren't really needed.
    I'm not sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying that if the core problem is fixed that "checkboxes aren't needed"?
    It kind of sounds like well written characters don't need to be minorities.
    Nobody who wants diversity wants box checking/tokens. There is no choice that needs to be made between diversity and good writing.
    If I'm misunderstanding you, then excuse me.

  10. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    The reason of race bending and other adjustments to the lore is simple, because they don't know when they're gonna get to the POC characters, so if they wanna be, or at least, look diverse they gotta do it now.

    It took them 40 years to even get a Tim in live action. How long do you think WB will get to Damian, or even Duke, when their priority is Batman, always, and always start a new Batman, from the beginning, again.

    I doubt we would've gotten a live action Titans series, if it's not for the success of Young Justice (that in turn, transferred some of Tim's team to Dick) and 2003 Teen Titans

    It took 10+ years for Damian to get into cartoon, and we're nearing another 10 years pass with no Damian live action, it's probably gonna be 20 years. Has Duke gotten a cameo in Young Justice? Then he will be in a cartoon as a feature in the next 10-20 years, and a live action in another 20 years. Cass Cain got her first live action feature after 20 years. Stephanie still none.

    All that is assuming they're not resetting a Batman universe from the beginning again, whether in movies, animated series, or live action, in which case, double that time.
    It’s not complicated they nor can anyone else really justify a third Caucasian Robin. He’s lucky they didn’t just skip to Damian. Tim drake is gonna face this issue forever. It doesn’t help that this stagnation his has had. What does Tim want or need today? He fufilled his original purpose. He also birthed robins as solo heroes but his time has passed, he needs to evolve or die.

  11. #716
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post

    I agree that Tim has been damaged. But checking boxes does not make a character interesting, as others have pointed out. They draw attention; but that's not the same thing. I'm not opposed to checking boxes, mind you; but these days, folks at DC seem to think that that's all that needs to be done. Heck, they seem to think that it's important to do so. Checking boxes with tim, whether it be skin color, sexual orientation, or even code name won't fix the core problem. Conversely, if you do fix the core problem, matters such as those checkboxes aren't really needed.
    Why are you talking about boxes? I don't care about that stuff, Tim's just not interesting enough compared to the others anymore.

  12. #717
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I'm not sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying that if the core problem is fixed that "checkboxes aren't needed"?
    It kind of sounds like well written characters don't need to be minorities.
    Nobody who wants diversity wants box checking/tokens. There is no choice that needs to be made between diversity and good writing.
    If I'm misunderstanding you, then excuse me.
    I fully agree that the two things are not mutually exclusive. Except to the extent that the writers treat them that way. The problem that we've had in recent years has been at the writers have been using the checkboxes as a substitute for good writing. As others have said earlier in this thread: if the only thing about you that's interesting is that you're black, a woman, bisexual, etc., Then that's not going to be enough.

    Except that that phrasing is still flawed, because it still implies that someone's race, sex, or orientation is inherently interesting.
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  13. #718
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post

    Except that that phrasing is still flawed, because it still implies that someone's race, sex, or orientation is inherently interesting.
    I imagine it's plenty interesting to the people those characters represent. Though I don't know why anyone who's not a ginger would wanna read a Wally West comic. Taking Linda over Raven? What a loss!

  14. #719
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I'm not sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying that if the core problem is fixed that "checkboxes aren't needed"?
    It kind of sounds like well written characters don't need to be minorities.
    Thus far, you're dead on.

    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    Nobody who wants diversity wants box checking/tokens.
    And this is where I disagree: there are people who are only interested in the check boxes. And some of them work(ed) at DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    There is no choice that needs to be made between diversity and good writing.
    And I agree with this, too. I'm not the one who's making a fuss about what someone's race, gender, of sexual orientation is. That's all packaging, and ultimately unimportant.
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  15. #720
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    I imagine it's plenty interesting to the people those characters represent. Though I don't know why anyone who's not a ginger would wanna read a Wally West comic. Taking Linda over Raven? What a loss!
    Again, that's just packaging. I'm not a ginger, but I like reading Wally's adventures. I'm not black, but I'm very fond of John Henry Irons, John Stewart, and Vixen, just to name a few. Speaking of Vixen, I'm not female either; but that doesn't stop me from enjoying her stories. And I'm fond of the Batgirls, too.

    “Identifying with” a comic book character is nice and all; but its importance is drastically overblown. I don't read comic books to put myself into the lead character's shoes; I read them because I find the characters to be likable and interesting; and that can happen whether or not the character is like me.
    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

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