Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[Dataweaver]

+1 on the box checking fans. good point/analogy

the problem with how tim has been written the past few years is a (in)direct result of damian. it slid tim down the stack. dick is still dick of course. jason is the antihero, damian is "new." that left tim kind of holding the bag, and the writing (or lack thereof) has reflected it

making him bi won't change that, it'll just be virtue signaling for headlines and ignoring what set tim apart from dick/jason, he's a more pure detective who figured out batman on his own. bruce made mistakes with both dick/jason, but "got it right" with tim because he learned from those mistakes and gave tim a long enough leash and trust. tim didn't have the early trauma of dick/jason and he flourished in his role. they were true partners. and both bruce and tim grew as characters. he had a great relationship as "family." he had a good brother/sister relationship with cass. while dick/babs were obviously more than that. he was good with alfred, he had his own team with young justice/later titans, learning how to lead but without bruce's cold issues. all those things were lost/ignored. trying to redeem rose, not giving up on conner, etc...it'll be just like what bendis did to iceman. even in hickman's x-relaunch era, half the time bobby is just played for gay cliches and stereotypes. it becomes even more of a one-note meme.

and let's be honest, the only reason they're making tim bi and not gay is because they couldn't just hand-wave all the stuff he had with steph

At the start of Jon Lewis's run, it was highlighted that another thing that sets Tim apart from the others is that he's the sane one. He lost his mother and nearly lost his father (this was before Identity Crisis), but he didn't obsess over it: he grieved as a normal person would, then moved on with his life. It's part of why he considered “Robin” to be a temporary gig, whereas Bruce and even Dick were (borderline?) obsessive about being Batman and Nightwing (Bruce moreso than Dick; but still…) Tim still had a relatively normal family life, with a living father, a girlfriend, some high school pals, and so on. Even in the superhero community, he was hanging out as Young Justice, which was basically a close circle of high school agreed superheroes who liked spending time together.

Then Didio took over; and in very rapid succession, Young Justice was disbanded; Stephanie died; his dad died; his two best friends (Conner and Bart) died; he went all obsessive about being Robin; and his high school friends drifted away. And nearly everything that differentiated Tim from the rest got wiped away.

That's why I think this new Bernard thing might hopefully lead to a restoration of Tim having a normal life. He needs to go back to being the sane one. Though, frankly, he's sharing that with Babs and Stephanie. Still, there are enough ways that he is different from them already that that won't really matter.

[OBrianTallent]

Of all the characters that have come out in the last decade of comics, this really feels the most organic to me (yes, I know how wrong I am supposed to be in this, it's ok.) Lots of people dont just always know they are gay or bi, it's a decision that they come to over time as they reconcile themselves with it. Then usually it happens with someone they do know and have known. It's not uncommon for people who are not sure about this kind of decision to want to explore it safely with someone they trust. It's just the nature of people, as a counselor this is something I see often. They really are writing Tim as an evolution of character. He's redefining himself personally and if they do this the way they should, from this he should come out (no pun intended) on the other side with a new code name as well, a complete redefining of himself as he "grows up." I've been pleased with Meagan's voice for Tim so far and don't mind seeing where she takes him from here. While I would very much like to see Tim get his own series again, I also think it would be ok to see this develop over a new Young Justice book. Tim, Conner, Cassie, Bart...add Bunker, Powerhouse (who also needs a new name not Power Girl either) and Roundhouse...rescue these from the blah that is Titans Academy but also maybe Spoiler as well to see their relationship continue but also give Tim a comfortable support system to work this all out amongst.
As for why Tim's story isn't picking up until December, I would say it's because we've got to get through Fear State first.

[Light of Justice]

He does have a very good point though.

Why do we always have to get the settle?
DC isn't going to make Batman gay. I agree. They gave us Ghost maker an OG Character. They could have given it Bao or if it must be an existing character [you are correct that it's hard for new characters to take off] they could have given us Damian.

- he is popular

-= he is THE Robin so he is in a prominent position

- He is highly visible. next to Dick he is the most widely used

- he has less history and baggage. He can balance the scale without having 30+ years of established lore to deal with

- he has an ongoing which gives the writers more room to focus and explore his coming out.

Damian was perfect


Giving us Tim feels like scarps

- Has no on going

- not as popular as the others

- not as visible as the other Robins.

- Isn't as prominent as the other Robins

- that is has had so many paint jobs as DC desperately attempted to market him

Tim is black [Titans TV]
Tim is who looks and dresses like the more popular and more better known Damian [GK Game]
Tim is Part Asian [Titans TV]
Tim is LGBTQ.

I feels like the latest gimmick.

I'm not offended by characters coming out however I am offended by the character they had come out.

I am a gay man used to making do with whatever the media tosses me because there's precious few content in mainstream media.

As I type this I'm not just offended, I'm upset. I'm pissed off and I'm sick of scraps.

I spend money on DC/WB and I deserve more than desperate gimmicks.

As long as Damian is under Williamson with shojo manga and blatant self-insert to be male lead, I don't think Damian can be written as queer character. Besides, I think this is DC's attempt to make Tim become the relatable Robin, like teenagers who are struggling with their sexuality can relate with him. Damian is many thing, but relatable is not one of them, especially regarding emotion. Damian is...... intense. It took Professor Pyg lap dance and circus destruction for him to accept Dick's care for him, it took exploded boat and punctured skull for him to resolve his problem with Bruce, and it took a maniac from future plus half of his own team turned against him for Damian to admit that he cares for Jon as friend, not only as an acquaintance. I can't imagine Damian processes things like "what I am feeling this way?" and "what I am?". I mean, he can feel it, but he will not ponder or being awkward about it like a normal teenager.

[Light of Justice]

Of all the characters that have come out in the last decade of comics, this really feels the most organic to me (yes, I know how wrong I am supposed to be in this, it's ok.) Lots of people dont just always know they are gay or bi, it's a decision that they come to over time as they reconcile themselves with it. Then usually it happens with someone they do know and have known. It's not uncommon for people who are not sure about this kind of decision to want to explore it safely with someone they trust. It's just the nature of people, as a counselor this is something I see often. They really are writing Tim as an evolution of character. He's redefining himself personally and if they do this the way they should, from this he should come out (no pun intended) on the other side with a new code name as well, a complete redefining of himself as he "grows up." I've been pleased with Meagan's voice for Tim so far and don't mind seeing where she takes him from here. While I would very much like to see Tim get his own series again, I also think it would be ok to see this develop over a new Young Justice book. Tim, Conner, Cassie, Bart...add Bunker, Powerhouse (who also needs a new name not Power Girl either) and Roundhouse...rescue these from the blah that is Titans Academy but also maybe Spoiler as well to see their relationship continue but also give Tim a comfortable support system to work this all out amongst.
As for why Tim's story isn't picking up until December, I would say it's because we've got to get through Fear State first.

I don't read Teen Titans Academy at all, but is Roundhouse became a good character to be saved? From what I know in Glass's Teen Titans, Roundhouse is an absolute insufferable character

[OBrianTallent]

I don't read Teen Titans Academy at all, but is Roundhouse became a good character to be saved? From what I know in Glass's Teen Titans, Roundhouse is an absolute insufferable character

To be honest, I do not even know. lol. I did not read Glass' TT and only know he is currently with that group because I have been trying to read Academy. I did leave out Red Arrow and the new Kid Flash so we can swap him for them, I'm cool with that.

[Dataweaver]

Eh. The YJ relaunch was botched; but I'd still rather Tim end up hanging out with the likes of Conner, Bart, and Cassie than with Damian's hand-me-downs.

[Triniking1234]

+1 on the box checking fans. good point/analogy

the problem with how tim has been written the past few years is a (in)direct result of damian. it slid tim down the stack. dick is still dick of course. jason is the antihero, damian is "new." that left tim kind of holding the bag, and the writing (or lack thereof) has reflected it

making him bi won't change that, it'll just be virtue signaling for headlines and ignoring what set tim apart from dick/jason, he's a more pure detective who figured out batman on his own. bruce made mistakes with both dick/jason, but "got it right" with tim because he learned from those mistakes and gave tim a long enough leash and trust. tim didn't have the early trauma of dick/jason and he flourished in his role. they were true partners. and both bruce and tim grew as characters. he had a great relationship as "family." he had a good brother/sister relationship with cass. while dick/babs were obviously more than that. he was good with alfred, he had his own team with young justice/later titans, learning how to lead but without bruce's cold issues. all those things were lost/ignored. trying to redeem rose, not giving up on conner, etc...it'll be just like what bendis did to iceman. even in hickman's x-relaunch era, half the time bobby is just played for gay cliches and stereotypes. it becomes even more of a one-note meme.

and let's be honest, the only reason they're making tim bi and not gay is because they couldn't just hand-wave all the stuff he had with steph

Nah. Every Robin got their own book post new 52. Tim just got stuck in that bad Teen Titans book and everybody involved in that suffered so I wouldn't blame Damian's rising popularity for that.

I'm glad he's at least bi but any writer who hooks him up with a woman after this is gonna get flayed. o7

[OBrianTallent]

Nah. Every Robin got their own book post new 52. Tim just got stuck in that bad Teen Titans book and everybody involved in that suffered so I wouldn't blame Damian's rising popularity for that.

I'm glad he's at least bi but any writer who hooks him up with a woman after this is gonna get flayed. o7

And this is one of the problems with making a character bi. In definition, the character should be able to show an open attraction and/or relationship with either male or female characters, however in realization there is a vocal subset of readers who will only accept male attractions or relationships which is not true to the current definition of the character.

[Rac7d*]

This thread has jumped 8 pages, Tim drake has not warranted such discussion like this as long as I have been here. So this has been a good development for him

[Will Evans]

This thread has jumped 8 pages, Tim drake has not warranted such discussion like this as long as I have been here. So this has been a good development for him

There was also a lot of discussion in the issues leading up to this one. Discussing the hints that DC would do the reveal.

[Drako]

This thread has jumped 8 pages, Tim drake has not warranted such discussion like this as long as I have been here. So this has been a good development for him

Well, of course. It's a big change for the character.
DC has to keep the trend going and make him worth discussing for more reasons, because after a while him being Bi will just be the normal.

[Dataweaver]

And this is one of the problems with making a character bi. In definition, the character should be able to show an open attraction and/or relationship with either male or female characters, however in realization there is a vocal subset of readers who will only accept male attractions or relationships which is not true to the current definition of the character.

I'm not sure how many of the vocal faction who will only accept make attractions or relationships for Tim are actually readers. I suspect that a lot of the “fans of checking boxes” that I referred to earlier aren't even comic book readers — which might be part of why they aren't interested in anything beyond getting boxes checked. They have no personal investment in the stories being good.

Hopefully, Tim's current writer isn't one of those.

[Dataweaver]

This thread has jumped 8 pages, Tim drake has not warranted such discussion like this as long as I have been here. So this has been a good development for him

We'll see. I suspect this is just a temporary spike, as the reveal is an attention-getter. But the real question is whether that attention will persist in the long run.

[Darkspellmaster]

Bolded is mine.

At the start of Jon Lewis's run, it was highlighted that another thing that sets Tim apart from the others is that he's the sane one. He lost his mother and nearly lost his father (this was before Identity Crisis), but he didn't obsess over it: he grieved as a normal person would, then moved on with his life. It's part of why he considered “Robin” to be a temporary gig, whereas Bruce and even Dick were (borderline?) obsessive about being Batman and Nightwing (Bruce moreso than Dick; but still…) Tim still had a relatively normal family life, with a living father, a girlfriend, some high school pals, and so on. Even in the superhero community, he was hanging out as Young Justice, which was basically a close circle of high school agreed superheroes who liked spending time together.

Then Didio took over; and in very rapid succession, Young Justice was disbanded; Stephanie died; his dad died; his two best friends (Conner and Bart) died; he went all obsessive about being Robin; and his high school friends drifted away. And nearly everything that differentiated Tim from the rest got wiped away.

That's why I think this new Bernard thing might hopefully lead to a restoration of Tim having a normal life. He needs to go back to being the sane one. Though, frankly, he's sharing that with Babs and Stephanie. Still, there are enough ways that he is different from them already that that won't really matter.

And I think this is the issue. Didio wanted Tim to fit into the Bleak Bat world vs. Being the hope that he was. He was designed to pull Bruce out of that, it seemed the company wanted him to fit the edge. I hope that you're right, but I would also hope that there is a way to push him back to being the Detective Robin. I don't mind him sharing the Sane with Steph and Babs as the three could bounce issues off one another and give him more a bond with them in regard to helping the others. Hopefully we can see the writers covering this as just part of the story and not the whole story allowing him a greater focus all around on the character.

As long as Damian is under Williamson with shojo manga and blatant self-insert to be male lead, I don't think Damian can be written as queer character. Besides, I think this is DC's attempt to make Tim become the relatable Robin, like teenagers who are struggling with their sexuality can relate with him. Damian is many thing, but relatable is not one of them, especially regarding emotion. Damian is...... intense. It took Professor Pyg lap dance and circus destruction for him to accept Dick's care for him, it took exploded boat and punctured skull for him to resolve his problem with Bruce, and it took a maniac from future plus half of his own team turned against him for Damian to admit that he cares for Jon as friend, not only as an acquaintance. I can't imagine Damian processes things like "what I am feeling this way?" and "what I am?". I mean, he can feel it, but he will not ponder or being awkward about it like a normal teenager.

Damian could but it would take more time given that he's the blood son of Bruce and, as with Jon, there's this idea that you can't have the son's of your two main guys be queer in any way. And you're right, Damian is more a fantasy kid then a real one. Tim is the most realistic of all four, Dick is former Circus performer, Jason can take apart cars at a young age, Damian is an assassin. Tim is good at Computers which younger teens can be. And yeah Damian is intense and it was partly because of Jon and Steph that he chilled out more over time. If Damian has a reaction to a crush it's going to be intense and kind of angry, maybe even denial for a long time.

Eh. The YJ relaunch was botched; but I'd still rather Tim end up hanging out with the likes of Conner, Bart, and Cassie than with Damian's hand-me-downs.

Agreed, though I wouldn't mind a book with Tim and Damian having to work together to figure out their bond, maybe grow to be friends in some way. I still have to wonder if Damian is jealous of Tim and Bruce's relationship in some way.

Nah. Every Robin got their own book post new 52. Tim just got stuck in that bad Teen Titans book and everybody involved in that suffered so I wouldn't blame Damian's rising popularity for that.

I'm glad he's at least bi but any writer who hooks him up with a woman after this is gonna get flayed. o7

^This!^ This right here is what I'm worried about. And it's not going to be actual fans of Tim, or DC, or even readers. It's going to be outside people who hear "Cute Robin is Queer" and automatically have to assume that if he so much as looks at another female it's going to be queerbaiting. Now it's not happening at the moment, but I'm sure as the situation goes on, and if a writer is a fan of Tim/Steph or Tim/Cassie then tries to put them back together someone's going to scream bloody murder. What's going to be worse is if they try to give him different dates you're going to have a Billy/Teddy situation where you can't break him up because again, screaming bloody murder.

And this is one of the problems with making a character bi. In definition, the character should be able to show an open attraction and/or relationship with either male or female characters, however in realization there is a vocal subset of readers who will only accept male attractions or relationships which is not true to the current definition of the character.

Which is why they need to take care of this early. Show that Tim is still into girls as much as he's into guys. Even if it's just, "I still think Steph is hot", moment or something. You need to express that attraction in some way or else you will have that vocal subset come after the team with pitchforks. On the opposite end you have to show he's attracted to guys too, so you can't just have him date women. A deft hand is needed now with this aspect of him.

[Darkspellmaster]

This thread has jumped 8 pages, Tim drake has not warranted such discussion like this as long as I have been here. So this has been a good development for him

Part of the reason was because there wasn't that many good stories with him. Pre-52 there was a lot of talk in his thread, and then 52 happened and the reaction to everything from his whole new back story (which sucked) to the whole situation with mind control with Cassie and sleeping with her (which may or may not be considered rape due to non consent) to a bunch of other things, it caused a lot of discussion in the negative way.

It's a good development, but it needs to be part of his growth back to a stronger character, not the sum of it.