Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[dietrich]

Bludhaven getting nuked wasn't that long after Jacks death iirc, so just bringing Tim's origin back wouldn't mean that you have to bring that back.

Really if they can choose what is continuity and what isn't, I don't get why choose to bring stuff back that is hated by the fans.

I don't think DC truly know what the buying public likes/hates. if they did they'd do a lot of things differently I'd imagine.

[Dataweaver]

I'm real glad other writers are making fun of Drake. That was a stupid direction by Bendis. Even the reason behind it was stupid. Why would Tim take the name of an evil version of himself?!

I hope we get more writers making fun of the Duckboy phase. Shocking that DC ever allowed that to get to printing stage. Unbelievable.

Some poking fun is warranted; but I'm more of the opinion that his “Drake” era should be memory-holed sooner rather than later.

[scary harpy]

Jason staying dead wouldn't save Tim from redundancy. Jason isn't Robin or a sidekick. Jason has his own niche. Tim is redundant because he can't seem to move past robin. A position that is currently occupied

Thank You!

Jason is a great character with his own niche.

Tim needs his own name and own niche. It's way past time.

(Why didn't they bring back Sebastian Ives?)

[Dataweaver]

Probably because they didn't want Ives to become a kidnapping victim. The thing about Ives is that all of his struggles have been… well, unconnected from the superhero genre; he's a touchstone for Tim in that he represents the ordinary world.

I do want to see him come back; but only at the right time and in the right context.

[The World]

I think the issue with Tim is that in the 2000's his writers started to fall for the pain and angst will make you strong schtick that the Batman writers started to push in the 80's-90's. That and having any interest outside of strict Superhero means you're undedicated. This all started long before the N52. Combine that with modern writers being incapable of thinking up new concepts and you've got a recipe for disaster. Tim's problem is that they're ashamed of him and want him to be cooler. The character became such a vapid and hollow power fantasy after the 90's.

[Dataweaver]

There's a lot of truth to this: I personally see the start of his fall from grace in 2003 with Geoff Johns' Teen Titans and Bill Willingham's Robin; that's when Tim got recharacterized as a schemer rather than a problem solver. And yes, is also when they decided that Tim needed more devotion to being a superhero and more angst to provide that devotion: see War Games and Identity Crisis.

[Digifiend]

Bludhaven getting nuked wasn't that long after Jacks death iirc, so just bringing Tim's origin back wouldn't mean that you have to bring that back.

Really if they can choose what is continuity and what isn't, I don't get why choose to bring stuff back that is hated by the fans.

Yeah, Jack was killed and his wife was mentally ill (due to the trauma), so Tim set up a fake uncle (he was an actor) to act as a guardian, while he and Cassandra Cain paired up to fight crime in Bludhaven - Dick being absent at the time. The fake uncle was killed in the nuke, leading to Bruce adopting him, which happened in the One Year Later timeskip. Present continuity can easily just skip that fake uncle business.

[Frontier]

There's a lot of truth to this: I personally see the start of his fall from grace in 2003 with Geoff Johns' Teen Titans and Bill Willingham's Robin; that's when Tim got recharacterized as a schemer rather than a problem solver. And yes, is also when they decided that Tim needed more devotion to being a superhero and more angst to provide that devotion: see War Games and Identity Crisis.

Of course that played well into the Red Robin years...

[josai21]

See...I started reading Tim in OYL. So for me, while I enjoy his earlier stories, his coming age of was all about persevering through that hardship and trauma. So I didn't mind it. My primary issue is that N52 stopped the growth that was happening. Tim was reconciling those parts of himself near the end of Red Robin. And it was great. Nicieza and Yost did an amazing job.

Honestly, we won't get Tim fixed until DC gives him a solo with a good writer again. A lot of the problem here is there is not enough time in these oneshots and tie ins to develop the character.

[Dataweaver]

See...I started reading Tim in OYL. So for me, while I enjoy his earlier stories, his coming age of was all about persevering through that hardship and trauma. So I didn't mind it. My primary issue is that N52 stopped the growth that was happening. Tim was reconciling those parts of himself near the end of Red Robin. And it was great. Nicieza and Yost did an amazing job.

Honestly, we won't get Tim fixed until DC gives him a solo with a good writer again. A lot of the problem here is there is not enough time in these oneshots and tie ins to develop the character.

As someone who had been with Tim from the very beginning, I have to say that the business of a Coming of Age story for him was something that had already been done, way back in the various Robin Mini-series. In fact, his very first mini series, the one that started him out as Robin, was a coming-of-age story: Tim went to Europe on his own for further training, and ended up encountering and foiling a plot by King Snake. His second miniseries featured him taking down the Joker on his own. (Well, Alfred helped.) Heck, even the launch of his ongoing Theory had a similar theme of Tim flying solo: it took place right after Knightfall, when Azrael had replaced Batman and kicked him out of the Batcave. In short, Tim has always operated on his own as much as he has operated by Bruce's side.

It's a subtle but important difference between Tim and his precessors: Dick started out as a sidekick, then grew into a junior partner and then independent hero; Jason started as a sidekick, too, but died before he could become anything more. Tim started out as a junior partner and independent hero. So the “coming of age” said in the 2000s was redundant at best.

That said, I did appreciate the additional growth that took place after Final Crisis. And I agree that undoing it was one of the big mistakes that the new 52 made.

[josai21]

As someone who had been with Tim from the very beginning, I have to say that the business of a Coming of Age story for him was something that had already been done, way back in the various Robin Mini-series. In fact, his very first mini series, the one that started him out as Robin, was a coming-of-age story: Tim went to Europe on his own for further training, and ended up encountering and foiling a plot by King Snake. His second miniseries featured him taking down the Joker on his own. (Well, Alfred helped.) Heck, even the launch of his ongoing Theory had a similar theme of Tim flying solo: it took place right after Knightfall, when Azrael had replaced Batman and kicked him out of the Batcave. In short, Tim has always operated on his own as much as he has operated by Bruce's side.

It's a subtle but important difference between Tim and his precessors: Dick started out as a sidekick, then grew into a junior partner and then independent hero; Jason started as a sidekick, too, but died before he could become anything more. Tim started out as a junior partner and independent hero. So the “coming of age” said in the 2000s was redundant at best.

That said, I did appreciate the additional growth that took place after Final Crisis. And I agree that undoing it was one of the big mistakes that the new 52 made.

I can respect that and I did greatly enjoy the Robin mini-series...but that felt less like a coming of age and more of an origin story to me. Like Robin is a distinctly teenager/kid role. And I definitely respect the series where Tim was more solo, but he was still a kid. Still a teenager. Red Robin was more about him becoming an adult and, if not Bruce's equal, Dick's equal. That's hinted at from the beginning issue where Dick gives Robin to Damian.

The last few lines in Red Robin were so fascinating and promised greater things to come. Tim basically claimed Gotham was his to manage and run. Really an interesting perspective.

But yeah, I do here what you're saying and agree there was great growth in those series, but just becoming Robin wasn't about coming into his own man.

[Restingvoice]

4) He broke with Steph off-panel (seriously?) and is meeting an old friend everyone forgot of. It is a gay turn upcoming? I think it may be. If you want to have a gay Robin Tim is the best candidate.

Yeah, someone give a heterosexual explanation on how he thinks about Bernard. Particularly the moment he saw him.

[Fergus]

Lol Tim started out as a partner, then an independent hero then graduated into a bench warmer for a reluctant sidekick who tried to quit. That's hilarious.

[Dataweaver]

I can respect that and I did greatly enjoy the Robin mini-series...but that felt less like a coming of age and more of an origin story to me. Like Robin is a distinctly teenager/kid role. And I definitely respect the series where Tim was more solo, but he was still a kid. Still a teenager. Red Robin was more about him becoming an adult and, if not Bruce's equal, Dick's equal. That's hinted at from the beginning issue where Dick gives Robin to Damian.

The last few lines in Red Robin were so fascinating and promised greater things to come. Tim basically claimed Gotham was his to manage and run. Really an interesting perspective.

But yeah, I do here what you're saying and agree there was great growth in those series, but just becoming Robin wasn't about coming into his own man.

Let me be more clear: as I see it, OYL wasn't it coming of age story. At best, it was a Tim deals with grief story. And that had already been done before (and better) when Tim lost his mother and nearly lost his father. It had been established that Tim was different from Bruce and Dick in that his main motivation wasn't trauma, and he was arguably among the most sane of the bat family as a result. Jon Lewis addressed this in his first issue on the title: Tim grieve for his mother, and still misses her, but doesn't obsess over her death. The editorial team didn't get that, and decided that as long as Tim wasn't driven by angst, he wasn't serious enough. Thus, identity crisis and war games. And one year later was a feeble attempt to clean up that mess, feeble because the new writer also didn't realize the cause of the mess.

Tim did eventually get more actual character growth; but that didn't come until Dixon's return to the title. As for the Red Robin run, I have mixed feelings on it. The first half was good, everything up through Tim's confrontation with the League of Assassins and Ra's al-Ghul acknowledging Tim as “Detective”. But the other half, starting with The List, doubled down with the aspect of Tim introduced way back in 2003 that I most despise: Tim the schemer. There seems to be an assumption among many writers that anyone who is clever must be devious. Whether it was Johns having Tim argue that the Teen Titans should lie to get what they want or Willingham having Tim hire a fake uncle to deceive Bruce, we were starting to get a Tim who didn't think twice about deceiving people to achieve his goals, regardless of who those people were. And the final half of the Red Robin title was starting down that road again.

[Dataweaver]

Yeah, someone give a heterosexual explanation on how he thinks about Bernard. Particularly the moment he saw him.

It's not a heterosexual explanation, but not everything is driven by sex.