Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[hairys]

Typical. For some reason, the current crop over at DC seems to think that the only way to make someone interesting is to “diversify” them — whether it be making them LGBT, race-bending them, or gender-bending them.

I mean, it's not just DC. Marvel does it, too. And more generally, it's just what Hollywood / the entertainment industry do nowadays.

[Fergus]

As long as Tim's mother is an ordinary Asian American and not a member of the League of Assassins, that's pretty thin for blaming him to take something from Damian imo...

I'm glad you added that In your opinion cos I for one disagree

[Fergus]

Perhaps because those characters don't fit the story that is set to be told.

Damian, Bao, Duke, and Tim are different characters from personality and the way they think. You can't really just sub one of them to replace Tim that fits his story, especially not Damian or Bao; their stories are far too different. Honestly that's not even what's going on here.

This isn't about Tim being privileged like you love to claim. He's simply being race bended for this particular take. He's not the only character who has gotten this change when adapted to live action (many characters have), and I doubt he'll be the last. This move was merrily made to add more representation, nothing more nothing less. Race does not directly define a character/ from their motivations and personality. It's all about the journey, and the trials they endure which makes a character. In short, if the portrayal feels like Tim then I'm for it.

I'll put a pin in this and revisit when the show airs. Lets see this part that ONLY Tim can fit.

Tim is the privileged Robin just look at the number of chances DC has Given him compared to the other Bat boys.
I doubt any of the others would be allowed so many chances after so many misses.

[Frontier]

I feel like at the end of the day these characters are more unique than execs give them credit for to the point where they don't need to be cribbing traits from each other.

[failo.legendkiller]

Is it? Looks like people are just annoyed that the Titans TV show's Tim isn't really Tim at all, because they changed his ethnicity. It's not that they hate Tim outright, they just don't have a positive first impression of this version of him.

I say, wait until you actually see him in action. People criticised the casting of Bart Allen on The Flash (never mind that it makes sense for him to be black because Iris is) but his actor nailed the role. He sounds straight out of the comics and the Young Justice cartoon.

No, I didn’t mean about this. I’m also doubtful about that.
“Tim steals traits from others” or “Tim is the privileged Robin who always fail” or “Tim is the bland Robin” is what I was referring to.
It’s the kind of things I didn’t expect to read on an appreciation thread.

[dietrich]

No, I didn’t mean about this. I’m also doubtful about that.
“Tim steals traits from others” or “Tim is the privileged Robin who always fail” or “Tim is the bland Robin” is what I was referring to.
It’s the kind of things I didn’t expect to read on an appreciation thread.

That's just two posters outs of many not exactly crawling.

The Tim stealing traits isn't hate since we are discussing Tim stealing from others characters. You might not be aware but Tim is Caucasian in canon.

Tim is often tagged as the Bland Robin and this trend of adaptations always shying away from giving us canon accurate Tim does legitimise that claim.

Appreciation threads aren't supposed to be echo chambers.

However I apologise for derailing the convo. I'll dip.

[ZuLuLu]

I mean, it's not just DC. Marvel does it, too. And more generally, it's just what Hollywood / the entertainment industry do nowadays.

This is not even new to the industry, Catwoman was race-bent in the 60s. Various characters in books have been race and gender-bent in the past, as more comic book characters are adapted to the screen it is not surprising that this will continue to happen.

Hollywood has never cared about staying true to the source material

[ZeroBG82]

The Tim stealing traits isn't hate since we are discussing Tim stealing from others characters. You might not be aware but Tim is Caucasian in canon.

When the "traits" you're talking about have no bearing on the character, and specifically when they involve race, this reeks of tokenism. It's the kind of "there can be only one!" mentality that is at the very heart of tokenism. A whole lot of judging by the color of their skin and not by the content of their character. Pun very much intended in this case.

Tim's race has absolutely no impact on the character. Everything that is important or unique about the character comes from his family status, his inner emotional life and his mental faculties, neither of which have any bearing on race. Similarly, Damian's ethnic background doesn't really have any impact on his character. It's a function of his backstory, but doesn't really have any impact on who is or what makes him an interesting character. You could easily introduce another character of the same racial or ethnic groups, or even "race-bend" an existing one, and still keep both characters clearly defined and unique.

I'll be honest, I've never read anything with Duke. I can't speak to whether his race is intrinsic to his character the same way being African-American is to somebody like a Virgil Hawkins. Static is a character very much about the interaction between African-American youth and law enforcement, school, and expectation. But even if Duke's race is critical to his character, making Tim also a minority in no way minimizes or detracts from Duke, because the things that make them unique aren't, or at least had better not be, limited to their race. IF YOUR SOLE TRAIT IS THAT YOU ARE A MINORITY THEN YOU ARE A CHECKBOX AND NOT A CHARACTER.

All that matters is whether or not this Tim has the things that make Tim, well, Tim. Is he clever? Thoughtful? Is he driven to do the right thing? Is he full of self-doubt? Those, and others, are the traits that define Tim. Those can belong to somebody of any race or ethnic background. Even Tim's socio-economic status isn't wildly important to the character. Look at the early Dixon works on the character and there isn't anything there that demands Tim be from one class or race. He has a father he hides a secret from, he has to juggle school and heroics, he has friends on both sides of his life that he keeps out of the other. Nothing there demands Tim be rich, white, or anything in particular. Tim was essentially created as a white kid in the comics because white was the default setting and nothing from his racial or economic background really informed his creation. A working class, minority version of Tim can still very much embody all the things that are actually relevant to Tim as a character. Just as you could do so with Bruce, Dick, Jason, or even other franchise characters like Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen.

You can 100% have this version of Tim be Tim to his core, and still not be white. And not being white is in no way stealing traits from other characters. Now, whether the writing and the performance will actually bear any of that out remains to be seen.

[Frontier]

When the "traits" you're talking about have no bearing on the character, and specifically when they involve race, this reeks of tokenism. It's the kind of "there can be only one!" mentality that is at the very heart of tokenism. A whole lot of judging by the color of their skin and not by the content of their character. Pun very much intended in this case.

Tim's race has absolutely no impact on the character. Everything that is important or unique about the character comes from his family status, his inner emotional life and his mental faculties, neither of which have any bearing on race. Similarly, Damian's ethnic background doesn't really have any impact on his character. It's a function of his backstory, but doesn't really have any impact on who is or what makes him an interesting character. You could easily introduce another character of the same racial or ethnic groups, or even "race-bend" an existing one, and still keep both characters clearly defined and unique.

I'll be honest, I've never read anything with Duke. I can't speak to whether his race is intrinsic to his character the same way being African-American is to somebody like a Virgil Hawkins. Static is a character very much about the interaction between African-American youth and law enforcement, school, and expectation. But even if Duke's race is critical to his character, making Tim also a minority in no way minimizes or detracts from Duke, because the things that make them unique aren't, or at least had better not be, limited to their race. IF YOUR SOLE TRAIT IS THAT YOU ARE A MINORITY THEN YOU ARE A CHECKBOX AND NOT A CHARACTER.

All that matters is whether or not this Tim has the things that make Tim, well, Tim. Is he clever? Thoughtful? Is he driven to do the right thing? Is he full of self-doubt? Those, and others, are the traits that define Tim. Those can belong to somebody of any race or ethnic background. Even Tim's socio-economic status isn't wildly important to the character. Look at the early Dixon works on the character and there isn't anything there that demands Tim be from one class or race. He has a father he hides a secret from, he has to juggle school and heroics, he has friends on both sides of his life that he keeps out of the other. Nothing there demands Tim be rich, white, or anything in particular. Tim was essentially created as a white kid in the comics because white was the default setting and nothing from his racial or economic background really informed his creation. A working class, minority version of Tim can still very much embody all the things that are actually relevant to Tim as a character. Just as you could do so with Bruce, Dick, Jason, or even other franchise characters like Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen.

You can 100% have this version of Tim be Tim to his core, and still not be white. And not being white is in no way stealing traits from other characters. Now, whether the writing and the performance will actually bear any of that out remains to be seen.

I think it only becomes an issue when you race-bend a more prominent Batfamily character to a race of another, more underutilized or newer, character to where it lessens that characters' significance because they're probably not going to be adapted any time soon.

At least in my opinion.

[KrustyKid]

I'll put a pin in this and revisit when the show airs. Lets see this part that ONLY Tim can fit.

Tim is the privileged Robin just look at the number of chances DC has Given him compared to the other Bat boys.
I doubt any of the others would be allowed so many chances after so many misses.

Since the New-52 when have they truly pushed Tim? He's only ever been in over crowded team books. He hasn't headlined anything to the point of 'having his name in the title'. Dick, Damian, and Jason of the Robins' are the only ones who they have truly pushed to that level. In the case of all three, I'd say they've done well. Tim hasn't had that luxury. Not that he has been completely benched, but comparing his situation to the other Robins just doesn't work/ when it comes to the comics he is the least pushed and that is a fact. In saying that, no, he is not a privileged Robin.

As for Tim in the show, I'll concede to being wrong if he is written nothing like Tim.

[KrustyKid]

When the "traits" you're talking about have no bearing on the character, and specifically when they involve race, this reeks of tokenism. It's the kind of "there can be only one!" mentality that is at the very heart of tokenism. A whole lot of judging by the color of their skin and not by the content of their character. Pun very much intended in this case.

Tim's race has absolutely no impact on the character. Everything that is important or unique about the character comes from his family status, his inner emotional life and his mental faculties, neither of which have any bearing on race. Similarly, Damian's ethnic background doesn't really have any impact on his character. It's a function of his backstory, but doesn't really have any impact on who is or what makes him an interesting character. You could easily introduce another character of the same racial or ethnic groups, or even "race-bend" an existing one, and still keep both characters clearly defined and unique.

I'll be honest, I've never read anything with Duke. I can't speak to whether his race is intrinsic to his character the same way being African-American is to somebody like a Virgil Hawkins. Static is a character very much about the interaction between African-American youth and law enforcement, school, and expectation. But even if Duke's race is critical to his character, making Tim also a minority in no way minimizes or detracts from Duke, because the things that make them unique aren't, or at least had better not be, limited to their race. IF YOUR SOLE TRAIT IS THAT YOU ARE A MINORITY THEN YOU ARE A CHECKBOX AND NOT A CHARACTER.

All that matters is whether or not this Tim has the things that make Tim, well, Tim. Is he clever? Thoughtful? Is he driven to do the right thing? Is he full of self-doubt? Those, and others, are the traits that define Tim. Those can belong to somebody of any race or ethnic background. Even Tim's socio-economic status isn't wildly important to the character. Look at the early Dixon works on the character and there isn't anything there that demands Tim be from one class or race. He has a father he hides a secret from, he has to juggle school and heroics, he has friends on both sides of his life that he keeps out of the other. Nothing there demands Tim be rich, white, or anything in particular. Tim was essentially created as a white kid in the comics because white was the default setting and nothing from his racial or economic background really informed his creation. A working class, minority version of Tim can still very much embody all the things that are actually relevant to Tim as a character. Just as you could do so with Bruce, Dick, Jason, or even other franchise characters like Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen.

You can 100% have this version of Tim be Tim to his core, and still not be white. And not being white is in no way stealing traits from other characters. Now, whether the writing and the performance will actually bear any of that out remains to be seen.

This is how I feel on the matter.

[KrustyKid]

I think it only becomes an issue when you race-bend a more prominent Batfamily character to a race of another, more underutilized or newer, character to where it lessens that characters' significance because they're probably not going to be adapted any time soon.

At least in my opinion.

I wouldn't say them altering Tim's race equates to him 'stealing' from other characters though. However with that said, you could have a point. But if one of those other characters suits a story they want to tell I don't see why they wouldn't bring them. After all there isn't a rule that limits how many people of different ethnicities they can choose to cast.

[scary harpy]

For what it's worth, I don't need him to be Caucasian black haired blue-eyed. What's essential for him to be him is his smarts and his attitude. I'm just commenting that people seem to think that changing his skin color, ethnicity, orientation, Etc to make him more interesting. Thought will make him more interesting will be to find a way to play up his cleverness and perceptiveness.

For what it's worth, I think that means a lot. I do not care if Tim is biracial or bisexual. I care that Tim finds his own direction with a new alias.

Tim needs his own niche...with a great new costume!

When the "traits" you're talking about have no bearing on the character, and specifically when they involve race, this reeks of tokenism. It's the kind of "there can be only one!" mentality that is at the very heart of tokenism. A whole lot of judging by the color of their skin and not by the content of their character. Pun very much intended in this case.

Tim's race has absolutely no impact on the character. Everything that is important or unique about the character comes from his family status, his inner emotional life and his mental faculties, neither of which have any bearing on race. Similarly, Damian's ethnic background doesn't really have any impact on his character. It's a function of his backstory, but doesn't really have any impact on who is or what makes him an interesting character. You could easily introduce another character of the same racial or ethnic groups, or even "race-bend" an existing one, and still keep both characters clearly defined and unique.

I'll be honest, I've never read anything with Duke. I can't speak to whether his race is intrinsic to his character the same way being African-American is to somebody like a Virgil Hawkins. Static is a character very much about the interaction between African-American youth and law enforcement, school, and expectation. But even if Duke's race is critical to his character, making Tim also a minority in no way minimizes or detracts from Duke, because the things that make them unique aren't, or at least had better not be, limited to their race. IF YOUR SOLE TRAIT IS THAT YOU ARE A MINORITY THEN YOU ARE A CHECKBOX AND NOT A CHARACTER.

All that matters is whether or not this Tim has the things that make Tim, well, Tim. Is he clever? Thoughtful? Is he driven to do the right thing? Is he full of self-doubt? Those, and others, are the traits that define Tim. Those can belong to somebody of any race or ethnic background. Even Tim's socio-economic status isn't wildly important to the character. Look at the early Dixon works on the character and there isn't anything there that demands Tim be from one class or race. He has a father he hides a secret from, he has to juggle school and heroics, he has friends on both sides of his life that he keeps out of the other. Nothing there demands Tim be rich, white, or anything in particular. Tim was essentially created as a white kid in the comics because white was the default setting and nothing from his racial or economic background really informed his creation. A working class, minority version of Tim can still very much embody all the things that are actually relevant to Tim as a character. Just as you could do so with Bruce, Dick, Jason, or even other franchise characters like Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen.

You can 100% have this version of Tim be Tim to his core, and still not be white. And not being white is in no way stealing traits from other characters. Now, whether the writing and the performance will actually bear any of that out remains to be seen.

Perfectly stated.

[Lal]

Since the New-52 when have they truly pushed Tim? He's only ever been in over crowded team books. He hasn't headlined anything to the point of 'having his name in the title'. Dick, Damian, and Jason of the Robins' are the only ones who they have truly pushed to that level. In the case of all three, I'd say they've done well. Tim hasn't had that luxury. Not that he has been completely benched, but comparing his situation to the other Robins just doesn't work/ when it comes to the comics he is the least pushed and that is a fact. In saying that, no, he is not a privileged Robin.

As for Tim in the show, I'll concede to being wrong if he is written nothing like Tim.

Damian was basically a villain in Teen Titans and was written to become the big bad (at least since 2018), so it's very hard to say he was pushed.
As for Tim, he was in Tec', a book that was read by more readers than both Nightwing and Red hood, and he was later the face of the Young justice series.
He was indeed in team books, but he was a very prominent character in both of them.
I don't think it's possible to say he didn't get a push.

[Konja7]

The Tim stealing traits isn't hate since we are discussing Tim stealing from others characters. You might not be aware but Tim is Caucasian in canon.

Honestly, the complaint that Tim is stealing from Damian is pretty weird. Damian's mother being a minority isn't a so essential part of Damian.

I don't think Titans want to steal from Damian. If they want to steal from Damian, "Batman's biological son" is the thing to steal.

Not to mention that I'm pretty sure Damian fans will hate if the character in Titans is called Damian Wayne (in the same way that Cassandra Cain fans hate Birds of Prey).