Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[Konja7]

Exactly. The only thing I would say is that editors should work at more “positive feedback” reviews of some material with some characters - if someone wanted to follow-up on Cassie and Tim sleeping together/being coerced into dubiously consensual sex in Lobdell’s Teen Titans run, for instance, the editors should probably talk them through every reason audience members might be perturbed or turned off by that…

I've understood Tim and Cassie didn't sleep together in New52 Teen Titans. The last issue of New52 Teen Titans implied they just kissed.

Also, it seems lobdell confirmed it was just a kiss.

So, even if "everything happened", Tim and Cassie never sleep together.

Yeah; “it all happened” means that some… “questionable” material happened, too: for example, back in the silver age, there was a story about how Superboy became Superman which involved some manipulator with mind control powers basically turning a regular girl into a sex toy for Clark. Technically, “It all happened” means that that happened, too. But that doesn't mean that we have to dwell on it.

However, even if the story doesn't dwell on that, that means Clark still had a regular girl as a sex toy.

That's why I just prefer to believe that never happened. I suspect DC also prefer this even when they say "everything happened".

[Dataweaver]

I've understood Tim and Cassie didn't sleep together in New52 Teen Titans. The last issue of New52 Teen Titans implied they just kissed.

Also, it seems lobdell confirmed it was just a kiss.

So, even if "everything happened", Tim and Cassie never sleep together.





However, even if the story doesn't dwell on that, that means Clark still had a regular girl as a sex toy.

That's why I just prefer to believe that never happened. I suspect DC also prefer this even when they say "everything happened".

As I said before, every change has unintended consequences. That Superboy-to-Superman story being back in continuity with everything else is one of the unintended consequences of the change of everything having happened. And yeah; I'm pretty sure that everyone's response will be to ignore it.

On the other hand, the danger of making exceptions to “it all happened”, however well-intentioned the exception is, is that it opens the door for others that might not be as clear-cut.

[Dataweaver]

Also: Speed Metal includes an example of how the contradictory nature of “It All Happened” works: Wally and Barry were having an argument about the Flash War, and Jay asked to be brought up to speed on what they were arguing about: because at the time that the flash War happened, Dr manhassen had not yet reset the timeline and Jay was still rendered non-existent (or trapped in the speed force, which amounts to the same thing).

Bringing this back around to Tim: when the Rebirth Detective Comics run started, Superman Reborn hadn't happened yet, and Tim's N52 origin was in force; after Superman Reborn happened, Tim's original history was back, more or less. And after Death Metal, Tim can remember recalling the N52 origin before his sacrifice and having the pre-Flashpoint origin afterwards. “It all happened”; but prior to Death Metal, whatever happened happened in the context of whatever the timeline was like when it happened.

The only time this gets messy is when there are conflicting versions of how a particular event played out; and that's when you end up with two sets of conflicting memories. Though The Flash has an example of that, too, with Iris mentioning that since she was introduced to Wally, she's been sorting through two sets of memories: one without him and one with him. Presumably, everyone in the post-DM DCU is doing that, but with more than just two sets of memories.

Realistically, that ought to result in a great demand for counselors and therapists as everyone tried to wrap their heads around this; but this being a superhero universe, those issues are unlikely to actually come up.

[godisawesome]

Also: Speed Metal includes an example of how the contradictory nature of “It All Happened” works: Wally and Barry were having an argument about the Flash War, and Jay asked to be brought up to speed on what they were arguing about: because at the time that the flash War happened, Dr manhassen had not yet reset the timeline and Jay was still rendered non-existent (or trapped in the speed force, which amounts to the same thing).

Bringing this back around to Tim: when the Rebirth Detective Comics run started, Superman Reborn hadn't happened yet, and Tim's N52 origin was in force; after Superman Reborn happened, Tim's original history was back, more or less. And after Death Metal, Tim can remember recalling the N52 origin before his sacrifice and having the pre-Flashpoint origin afterwards. “It all happened”; but prior to Death Metal, whatever happened happened in the context of whatever the timeline was like when it happened.

The only time this gets messy is when there are conflicting versions of how a particular event played out; and that's when you end up with two sets of conflicting memories. Though The Flash has an example of that, too, with Iris mentioning that since she was introduced to Wally, she's been sorting through two sets of memories: one without him and one with him. Presumably, everyone in the post-DM DCU is doing that, but with more than just two sets of memories.

Realistically, that ought to result in a great demand for counselors and therapists as everyone tried to wrap their heads around this; but this being a superhero universe, those issues are unlikely to actually come up.

Or, when they do come up… not be handled in anyway that resembles the real world, and results in incredibly stupid “treatments” compounded by out-of-character Didioitis - the compulsion to act needlessly murderous towards legacy characters.

[scary harpy]

...

However, even if the story doesn't dwell on that, that means Clark still had a regular girl as a sex toy.

That's why I just prefer to believe that never happened. I suspect DC also prefer this even when they say "everything happened".

As I said before, every change has unintended consequences. That Superboy-to-Superman story being back in continuity with everything else is one of the unintended consequences of the change of everything having happened. And yeah; I'm pretty sure that everyone's response will be to ignore it.

On the other hand, the danger of making exceptions to “it all happened”, however well-intentioned the exception is, is that it opens the door for others that might not be as clear-cut.

'Everything happened" means "Everything happened": the good, the bad and the ugly.

As I said before, there are too many just bad stories through the decades. We've got them all now.

You may wish to forget that Superboy & girl story; I would love to forget "The Killing Joke" & "A Death in the Family".

They are all still there...and we can choose not to dwell on them. This may be for the best.

[Dataweaver]

'Everything happened" means "Everything happened": the good, the bad and the ugly.

As I said before, there are too many just bad stories through the decades. We've got them all now.

You may wish to forget that Superboy & girl story; I would love to forget "The Killing Joke" & "A Death in the Family".

They are all still there...and we can choose not to dwell on them. This may be for the best.

I fully agree with you. With that said, there's one difference between the two examples: the Superboy & girl story had exactly zero ramifications: Superman was exactly the same after the story was published as he was before it. The Killing Joke ended Barbara's career as Batgirl and set the stage for Oracle, while A Death in the Family ended Jason's career as Robin and set the stage for Tim Drake to become Robin. We're can completely ignore the former without any problem; not so for the other two. Also, I suspect that you didn't even know about that Superboy sorry until I mentioned it; but it's rare for someone not to be at least passingly aware of The Killing Joke or A Death in the Family.

Again, I agree with you: “it all happened” means that it all happened, good, bad, and ugly; and just because something happened, that doesn't mean that we need to dwell on it. It's just that “what we choose to ignore” is a little more complicated than “we can ignore whatever we want to”.

[Aahz]

With "A Death in the Family" I think they could at least go for a different version of that story (I mean there are a lot of different versions in other continuities) because the original is not that great to begin with.

[scary harpy]

I fully agree with you. With that said, there's one difference between the two examples: the Superboy & girl story had exactly zero ramifications: Superman was exactly the same after the story was published as he was before it. The Killing Joke ended Barbara's career as Batgirl and set the stage for Oracle, while A Death in the Family ended Jason's career as Robin and set the stage for Tim Drake to become Robin. We're can completely ignore the former without any problem; not so for the other two. Also, I suspect that you didn't even know about that Superboy sorry until I mentioned it; but it's rare for someone not to be at least passingly aware of The Killing Joke or A Death in the Family.

Again, I agree with you: “it all happened” means that it all happened, good, bad, and ugly; and just because something happened, that doesn't mean that we need to dwell on it. It's just that “what we choose to ignore” is a little more complicated than “we can ignore whatever we want to”.

I was aware of that Superboy story...it's been discussed before.

I see no difference in “what we choose to ignore” or “we can ignore whatever we want to” because it all happened.

If I see a rose bush with a dead cockroach underneath, I can choose to either smell the fragrant flowers or dwell on the rotting roach; either way, they both still exist.

[scary harpy]

With "A Death in the Family" I think they could at least go for a different version of that story (I mean there are a lot of different versions in other continuities) because the original is not that great to begin with.

Agreed. 100%.

I think that was done in Batman: Death in the Family animated movie...each alternate ending was worse that the last.

There was also alternate version of "The Killing Joke" in Zero Hour...Jim Gordon opened the door and the Joker shot him. Harvey Dent became the commissioner and made vigilantes illegal. I last heard DC was going to explore this idea in a Dark Multiverse earth.

I think the 'no happy endings for superheroes' rule may still be in effect.

[josai21]

Or...DC could do the same thing every author in creating fiction has done.

Have a beginning, a middle, and an end. And then everything else written can be taken as non-canon or events that occurred within such and such a time.

I know I've said it before, but DC, by it's very nature of constantly trying to keep a status quo to maintain sales is not good at telling stories. It's bad literature and bad story-telling. Our favorite characters will continue to be butchered beyond recognition because there is never a true version of these character. Just variations in a vat of what is equivalent to published fanfiction.

DC needs to articulate a clear vision and create a set story. A set timeline. And not deviate from it.

But what's more likely to happen is they will continue losing sales. They'll keep rebooting. And they will die as a comic book company.

[Drako]

First official image of him in the Titans series:

[josai21]

First official image of him in the Titans series:

Respect. Loving the Noodle House shirt.

[CPSparkles]

First official image of him in the Titans series:

This should have been Duke Thomas.

lucky tim has a lot of fanboys behind the scenes.

[Rac7d*]

This should have been Duke Thomas.

lucky tim has a lot of fanboys behind the scenes.

Why ? He’s the next robins

[Fergus]

Why ? He’s the next robins

So? the character is a kid from the rough part of town who believes in batman. the character is Duke Thomas not Tim drake.

I don't recall the other history of the DCU mentioning the Thomas family as one of Gotham's oldest and richest. That was the Drakes.

This kid is Duke Thomas not Tim Drake