Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Drake Appreciation 2021

[Restingvoice]

Where did you get all this and how everything works? Did Metal explain it all or are your personal interpretation of how continuity works?

The single big timeline is confirmed in Metal, from the birth of Multiverse and Perpetua's imprisonment until Rebirth, Perpetua has been whispering to the movers of DCU like Anti-Monitor, Parallax, Alexander Luthor, and Zoom to cause Crisis to produce large enough Crisis Energy to eventually release her.

Before that, I thought that Rebirth is the same as New 52 but with some alteration, its own continuity, separate from the others, and the Crisis never happened in this continuity's history, but then Bendis Young Justice revealed that all Crisis is canon. At that time I didn't know why and how. It turned out to be that the Crisis happened before they became New 52 and Rebirth, and all of DC's main canon happened in one single timeline.

The first hint was The Button. When Barry ran back in time, he managed to reach the Flashpoint universe, even though the Flashpoint universe was supposed to be gone with the creation of New 52. During the run-through time, Barry and Bruce saw the Silver Age versions of themselves. They thought they're alternate versions of them, but Zoom said, no, these are all you, not alternate versions. Then he's taken by Manhattan before he can spoil anything anymore. (I may mix up some details here on which character does what but the important thing is, they concluded that the Silver Age and Rebirth are the same people but changed)

Another hint was Alternate Future Evil Tim, who knew that Cass and Steph were Batgirls once, but that memory has been forgotten, and that fact has been altered.

The concept of past characters evolving (I used the word transforming in the previous post) has been there since Convergence at least. At the end of Convergence, it is said that the Post Crisis characters evolved to the New 52 with the exception of characters who escaped it. Lois, Clark, and Jon. (the nature of the Superfamily is later changed but the concept of Evolving Characters were there)

Actually, Johns probably already used the concept of evolving character since Flashpoint, because at the end of Flashpoint, Barry handed Thomas Wayne's letter to Bruce, and that letter still exists in New 52, and later Rebirth. Even though Barry thought everything has returned to normal, that he's returned to the Pre-Flashpoint universe, he didn't. He returned to the New 52 universe, and he became New 52 Barry. He entered Flashpoint as Pre-Flashpoint Barry but came out of it as New 52 Barry with all of his New 52 back story.

Of course, the idea that they're all the same character in a single timeline is supported again once Gold Wonder Woman in Metal unlocked the Truth, that is, the memory that they all have past versions before they evolved into the current version. When Zatanna did it to Tim, I didn't get it. It was only after Metal revealed the single long timeline that I get it.

This concept still stands now in Infinite Frontier. After Metal, Barry said that they all will remember moments from their past versions in flashes.

Doomsday Clock also treats it this way. Every time a Crisis happened and the multiverse is changed, Earth-0 and its inhabitants became a new version, while the old versions that no longer exist were archived in the Metaverse, as a way to preserve each version of the Multiverse. Their past selves of New 52 are archived in Earth-52, the Pre-Crisis in Earth-1985, meanwhile, Earth-0 move on. (I'm still not sure on how the archiving works, but for now I take it as the Metaverse copied and pasted a past version to a different Earth before Earth-0 evolve to a new version)

So Death Metal, Doomsday Clock, Bendis' Young Justice, Snyder's Justice League, The Button, and Convergence. The rest I conclude based on what's been mentioned in those arcs.

[Zorkel567]

While not a lot of info, in Joshua Williamson's interview with ComicsBeat, he said that he originally wanted to use Tim Drake in Infinite Frontier, but went with Thomas Wayne because the Bat-Office had plans for Tim.

And so I was looking at everything, and this is really early on, like October last year. I’m looking at the plans. And I’m like, ‘You know what I’m missing? I’m missing a Batman.’ But I knew that, you know, I talked to James [Tynion IV] every day, he’s one of my best friends, so I knew all his plans. I knew that like every Bat-character was spoken for. Like James and Ben [Abernathy] and Mariko [Tamaki], everyone working on the Bat-books, they had this plan. So I’m like, ‘Oh man, every single character is spoken for.’ At one point I was gonna use Tim [Drake, aka Robin], and they were like, ‘Oh, we have plans for Tim.’

https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview...iamson-part-1/

[KrustyKid]

While not a lot of info, in Joshua Williamson's interview with ComicsBeat, he said that he originally wanted to use Tim Drake in Infinite Frontier, but went with Thomas Wayne because the Bat-Office had plans for Tim.



https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview...iamson-part-1/

I have a strong feeling plans have changed since then, at least in regards to Tim.

[Frontier]

While not a lot of info, in Joshua Williamson's interview with ComicsBeat, he said that he originally wanted to use Tim Drake in Infinite Frontier, but went with Thomas Wayne because the Bat-Office had plans for Tim.



https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview...iamson-part-1/

I'd kind of prefer Tim have gotten the job rather than having to redeem Thomas Wayne, but whatever.

[Dataweaver]

His history was already altered to A Lonely Place of Dying, but he's still only a ward, because at that point, that is Rebirth Tim. He's neither Pre-Flashpoint Tim nor New 52 Tim.

The New 52 Tim was transformed into Rebirth Tim by cosmic interference (this can be different things like Dr. Manhattan, Mr. Mxyptlk, or any Crisis). Same with Bunker. Same with everyone.

It's like this.

There is one single timeline encompassing all of DC publications from 1938 to today.
Within that, the timeline is broken up by reboots or Crisis, changing the people living in it and the world they live in.
In story. Not just out of story.

So Tim was first the 80s version, then a cosmic interference turned him into the Tim of 2011, then there's another interference turned him into the Rebirth version.

They're different versions of a person every time that happened, but they're still one person within one single big timeline.

Every time that interference happened, Tim remembers different things, and what actually happened is also different, since a cosmic interference alters not just memory but the physical as well.

Normally people don't know that they have a past version since normally they wouldn't know that they've been rebooted.

So if at one point current Tim looks at his old family picture, he'll probably see the thin and old Jack Drake instead of the chubby younger one from New 52, and he won't remember that he used to steal Penguin's money. He only remembers A Lonely Place of Dying version of his origin. There won't be a house where he keep chubby Jack Drake safe, but instead, there's probably gravestones of both Drakes. (This is just an example)

The memory of the other versions have been locked away. Tim won't be able to remember it on his own.
The physical part is already transformed. Tim was 17, then he's 16, then he's... whatever he is now.

However, there are powers that can breach that limitation.

Zatanna's magic seems to be like that, it can breach that physical limit so that Tim can look to his previous versions, something he won't be able to do if he's just remembering things like normal people.

Then at the end of Metal, Gold Wonder Woman, who's a higher being than the Greek Gods, can unlock that memory about their past versions buried deep inside them, so they remember that they were all rebooted and transformed.

Infinite Frontier has added more details: Superman definitely remembers everything; and many others do as well, both in the superhuman community and outside of it. But it isn't everyone. There's enough of it that there's now a general awareness of the Metaversal timeline; but for many, this is second-hand knowledge, and four others it was second-hand knowledge until their open memories resurfaced. Apparently, the ability to remember the entire meta-history depends on part on the person's ability to cope with it: those who would be broken by the experience don't remember, while those who can handle it do.

Another big reveal from Infinite Crisis is that the current Multiverse, up to and including Earth 0, isn't the original Multiverse. But it is inhabited by people from the original Multiverse. And in much the same way that, in the original Multiverse, Earth 2 was the first Earth and Earth 1 came later, it has been revealed that the Multiverse that was destroyed in the Crisis on Infinite Earths is what is now being referred to as Multiverse 2. (For those unaware, Multiverse 2 was first mentioned in 2015's Multiversity.) Barry Allen is back in Multiverse 2 now, put there by Pariah and now inhabiting “Earth-Flash-1”.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

While not a lot of info, in Joshua Williamson's interview with ComicsBeat, he said that he originally wanted to use Tim Drake in Infinite Frontier, but went with Thomas Wayne because the Bat-Office had plans for Tim.



https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview...iamson-part-1/

I have a strong feeling plans have changed since then, at least in regards to Tim.

They had plans for Tim the same way Vince McMahon has plans for over wrestlers who he's not high on.

[Konja7]

Infinite Frontier has added more details: Superman definitely remembers everything; and many others do as well, both in the superhuman community and outside of it. But it isn't everyone. There's enough of it that there's now a general awareness of the Metaversal timeline; but for many, this is second-hand knowledge, and four others it was second-hand knowledge until their open memories resurfaced. Apparently, the ability to remember the entire meta-history depends on part on the person's ability to cope with it: those who would be broken by the experience don't remember, while those who can handle it do.

So, as I guessed, writers will take what they want for their stories.

If they want to use old stories for their current stories, they will make characters to remember. However, if they want new continuity, they will mantain only the current continuity memories.

[Restingvoice]

Infinite Frontier has added more details: Superman definitely remembers everything; and many others do as well, both in the superhuman community and outside of it. But it isn't everyone. There's enough of it that there's now a general awareness of the Metaversal timeline; but for many, this is second-hand knowledge, and four others it was second-hand knowledge until their open memories resurfaced. Apparently, the ability to remember the entire meta-history depends on part on the person's ability to cope with it: those who would be broken by the experience don't remember, while those who can handle it do.

Another big reveal from Infinite Crisis is that the current Multiverse, up to and including Earth 0, isn't the original Multiverse. But it is inhabited by people from the original Multiverse. And in much the same way that, in the original Multiverse, Earth 2 was the first Earth and Earth 1 came later, it has been revealed that the Multiverse that was destroyed in the Crisis on Infinite Earths is what is now being referred to as Multiverse 2. (For those unaware, Multiverse 2 was first mentioned in 2015's Multiversity.) Barry Allen is back in Multiverse 2 now, put there by Pariah and now inhabiting “Earth-Flash-1”.

I need to see how Clark and the Zod family handle this now that they remember they used to kill their own son, and he's aware of it now ^^

So if it depends on people's capacity then Luthor would remember a lot then, and Brainiac would remember everything.

Would you say that Multiverse 2 and Earth-Flash-1 are one of the archived Earth and Multiverse in the Metaverse? That sounds like it to me.

[Dataweaver]

I need to see how Clark and the Zod family handle this now that they remember they used to kill their own son, and he's aware of it now ^^

So if it depends on people's capacity then Luthor would remember a lot then, and Brainiac would remember everything.

Would you say that Multiverse 2 and Earth-Flash-1 are one of the archived Earth and Multiverse in the Metaverse? That sounds like it to me.

Multiverse-2 isn't an Earth; it's a Multiverse. And the way it's described, it isn't an archival copy of the pre-Crisis Multiverse; it's the remains of it; remains that the Open Hand and the Gentry (the villains of Multiversity) have been feeding on ever since it was destroyed by the Anti-Monitor. Earth-Flash-1 appears to be a world that was formed around Barry Allen when Pariah inserted him into Multiverse-2, as a sort of “personal heaven” for him.

In something of a contradiction with Doomsday Clock, it now appears to be that Earth-0 was born out of the Crisis on Infinite Earths and populated by survivors from the old Multiverse, rather than the Metaverse morphing into the post-Crisis Earth and spinning off an archival Earth-1985. Also, Convergence seems to mostly be ignored, as the ending of that supposedly saved the original Multiverse from destruction; and that also contradicts what we see of Multiverse-2 as the ruins of the original Multiverse.

[Restingvoice]

Multiverse-2 isn't an Earth; it's a Multiverse. And the way it's described, it isn't an archival copy of the pre-Crisis Multiverse; it's the remains of it; remains that the Open Hand and the Gentry (the villains of Multiversity) have been feeding on ever since it was destroyed by the Anti-Monitor. Earth-Flash-1 appears to be a world that was formed around Barry Allen when Pariah inserted him into Multiverse-2, as a sort of “personal heaven” for him.

In something of a contradiction with Doomsday Clock, it now appears to be that Earth-0 was born out of the Crisis on Infinite Earths and populated by survivors from the old Multiverse, rather than the Metaverse morphing into the post-Crisis Earth and spinning off an archival Earth-1985. Also, Convergence seems to mostly be ignored, as the ending of that supposedly saved the original Multiverse from destruction; and that also contradicts what we see of Multiverse-2 as the ruins of the original Multiverse.

Aren't those the same thing?

Earth-0 was born out of the Crisis and populated by survivors from the old Multiverse

Earth-1 of the old Multiverse was transformed into Earth-0/New Earth in the new Universe, and the past version of the characters morphed into the new version

Those two things sound the same to me.

The difference is now on top of an Archive Copy of Earth-1985, there's also Leftover Debris, and from that debris, Earth-Flash-1 was created

Also, aren't the bubbled cities of Convergence collected by Brainiac similar to those Debris?

I remember that some heroes including are sent back to save the Crisis after Convergence, but I don't remember what happened after that... if they actually canceled the Crisis or not. When Rebirth and Metal happened, the Crisis still happened, so I just assumed they failed, or Dr. Manhattan or The Darkest Knight stopped them before they can do that.

[Dataweaver]

Aren't those the same thing?

Earth-0 was born out of the Crisis and populated by survivors from the old Multiverse

Earth-1 of the old Multiverse was transformed into Earth-0/New Earth in the new Universe, and the past version of the characters morphed into the new version

Those two things sound the same to me.

They're very similar, yes.

The difference is now on top of an Archive Copy of Earth-1985, there's also Leftover Debris, and from that debris, Earth-Flash-1 was created

That's part of it. But the existence of debris from the original Multiverse clashes with the ending of Convergence; I'll get to that shortly.

Also, aren't the bubbled cities of Convergence collected by Brainiac similar to those Debris?

Similar to? No. Telos said that he picked the cities out of “dead timelines”, just before they died. That means that the cities that were picked from the pre-Crisis Multiverse were picked from Multiverse-2. So far, so good. However:

I remember that some heroes including are sent back to save the Crisis after Convergence, but I don't remember what happened after that... if they actually canceled the Crisis or not. When Rebirth and Metal happened, the Crisis still happened, so I just assumed they failed, or Dr. Manhattan or The Darkest Knight stopped them before they can do that.

This is where the problem arises. Convergence ends with Telos declaring that the heroes succeeded, that the Multiverse was saved, and that it went on to mutate into the current Multiverse. Furthermore, all of the heroes from that mission arguably moved to the post-Flashpoint Earth-0: during the following year, Hal Jordan had a run-in with the Zero Hour Parallax, and Superman: Lois and Clark detailed what happened to the pre-Flashpoint Kents after they stopped the Crisis. Jon Kent exists because they were successful.

[failo.legendkiller]

I'm rereading Tim solo Robin serie, I'm in the middle of Jon Lewis run at issue #112.

I'm appreciating it more now than when it came out. Probably cause at that time I was too shaken by Dixon leaving.
It's filled by too much text, sometimes really unncessary but all things considered I'm enjoying it.
He's trying to take the Steph/Tim relationship to another level (I can't remember how it landed, this run was a black hole in my memory).
How do you feel about this run?

[Dataweaver]

Other that Lewis's tendency to lean into weirdness, I loved it.

[dietrich]

Chuck Dixon the man who gave us the stories that defined and shaped Tim Drake's character shares his thoughts on the not so recent revelations about Tim.

https://boundingintocomics.com/2021/...racted-to-men/

[dietrich]

I have a strong feeling plans have changed since then, at least in regards to Tim.

I agree however their recent decisions and actions indicates they still have plans for the character.

Dc seems to be putting effort into making sure there's some content for all the family. They seem to be trying harder, listening more and getting creative.