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  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    What's important to me is that they are treating Babs with dignity and respect.

    She's becoming Oracle like Richard became Nightwing...a natural progression of her/his character.

    (I don't want to go into the horrible muck about how she became Oracle last time. I will point out that Grayson didn't become Nightwing because he had been castrated. Why should she be mutilated to 'grow' into a new identity?)

    Under these circumstances, I'll be glad to have Cassandra be Batgirl. (I hope her costume gets some more color. It's so drab.)
    Nightwing retains a consistent solo and stories, and is generally published the same amount as Robin. What has Babs actually progressed on to as Oracle right now. Thats the problem. Hard to claim Oracle is a progression when what she progress on to is less then what she had.

    Also why is support for Oracle almost always bookend by and then so and so can be Batgirl. The support for Oracle comes off disingenuous, and then makes one have to question why is not being Batgirl a progression for Babs yet not for your preferred Batgirl then.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 04-15-2021 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Nightwing retains a consistent solo and stories, and is generally published the same amount as Robin. What has Babs actually progressed on to as Oracle right now. Thats the problem. Hard to claim Oracle is a progression when what she progress on to is less then what she had.

    Also why is support for Oracle almost always bookend by and then so and so can be Batgirl. The support for Oracle comes off disingenuous, and then makes one have to question why is not being Batgirl a progression for Babs yet not for your preferred Batgirl then.
    I feel like Babs “going back” to Batgirl works better if it’s Batgirl with the greater skills, autonomy, and significance that you’d get combining her Oracle years with some of her original concept in the comics - when she was presented as a competitor to Batman and a formidable enough woman in her civilian ID to be a congresswoman.

    Because when you do that, it doesn’t come off as “going back” - or regression - with the Batgirl ID.

    But if you don’t do that, like the New 52 did, then it definetly comes off as regression to some fans.

    And I think that somewhat stains the discussion, in the same way that The Killing Joke stains her transition into Oracle, and in the opposite way that Steph getting the Batbril suit was a progression for her given DC’s treatment of her earlier, or how there’s definitely a “mirrored” feeling between Cass and some* Babs fans regarding the ID as being the best one for the character because their highest profile was there.

    I’m getting better at empathizing with Babsgirl fans, even though, yeah, I’m still a sucker for Post-Crisis stories that feature Babs as Oracle. But I still feel that one of the trickiest things about her is that the New 52 out her back in the suit the wrong way, and made her come off more like a “junior varsity” player when there was a strong argument to make that Oracle had become a “varsity” level position, even if not conventional.

    Treating Babs with respect has been something DC has faltered with more than once... and arguably something they still struggle with now, because they wasted the opportunity to bind together the fanbase as best they could a decade ago, and now have a fractured fanbase, similar to the situation with Superman or Wonder Woman.
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  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Nightwing retains a consistent solo and stories, and is generally published the same amount as Robin. What has Babs actually progressed on to as Oracle right now. Thats the problem. Hard to claim Oracle is a progression when what she progress on to is less then what she had.

    Also why is support for Oracle almost always bookend by and then so and so can be Batgirl. The support for Oracle comes off disingenuous, and then makes one have to question why is not being Batgirl a progression for Babs yet not for your preferred Batgirl then.
    FYI

    Barbara is my preferred Batgirl.

    She always will be.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I feel like Babs “going back” to Batgirl works better if it’s Batgirl with the greater skills, autonomy, and significance that you’d get combining her Oracle years with some of her original concept in the comics - when she was presented as a competitor to Batman and a formidable enough woman in her civilian ID to be a congresswoman.

    Because when you do that, it doesn’t come off as “going back” - or regression - with the Batgirl ID.

    But if you don’t do that, like the New 52 did, then it definetly comes off as regression to some fans.

    And I think that somewhat stains the discussion, in the same way that The Killing Joke stains her transition into Oracle, and in the opposite way that Steph getting the Batbril suit was a progression for her given DC’s treatment of her earlier, or how there’s definitely a “mirrored” feeling between Cass and some* Babs fans regarding the ID as being the best one for the character because their highest profile was there.

    I’m getting better at empathizing with Babsgirl fans, even though, yeah, I’m still a sucker for Post-Crisis stories that feature Babs as Oracle. But I still feel that one of the trickiest things about her is that the New 52 out her back in the suit the wrong way, and made her come off more like a “junior varsity” player when there was a strong argument to make that Oracle had become a “varsity” level position, even if not conventional.

    Treating Babs with respect has been something DC has faltered with more than once... and arguably something they still struggle with now, because they wasted the opportunity to bind together the fanbase as best they could a decade ago, and now have a fractured fanbase, similar to the situation with Superman or Wonder Woman.
    Well said.

    I prefer Stephanie as Spoiler...she can wear a bat insignia but she still has her own identity. That's something precious today.

    Cass was pretty much designed to be the new, dark Batgirl. DC seems to have difficulty giving her another identity. IMHO, Silhouette would fit her as she's the Shadow of the Batgirl.

    Some people grew up with Cass as Batgirl and Babs as Oracle...and that's all they've known. They are defensive of that status quo. I understand because I grew up with Babs as Batgirl...and that was traumatically ripped away from me.

    I think Bette got robbed in a dozen ways.

    Ultimately, the Batgirls and the Robins have the same problem...too many of them. What to do with them?
    Last edited by scary harpy; 04-15-2021 at 04:17 PM.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I feel like Babs “going back” to Batgirl works better if it’s Batgirl with the greater skills, autonomy, and significance that you’d get combining her Oracle years with some of her original concept in the comics - when she was presented as a competitor to Batman and a formidable enough woman in her civilian ID to be a congresswoman.

    Because when you do that, it doesn’t come off as “going back” - or regression - with the Batgirl ID.

    But if you don’t do that, like the New 52 did, then it definetly comes off as regression to some fans.

    And I think that somewhat stains the discussion, in the same way that The Killing Joke stains her transition into Oracle, and in the opposite way that Steph getting the Batbril suit was a progression for her given DC’s treatment of her earlier, or how there’s definitely a “mirrored” feeling between Cass and some* Babs fans regarding the ID as being the best one for the character because their highest profile was there.

    I’m getting better at empathizing with Babsgirl fans, even though, yeah, I’m still a sucker for Post-Crisis stories that feature Babs as Oracle. But I still feel that one of the trickiest things about her is that the New 52 out her back in the suit the wrong way, and made her come off more like a “junior varsity” player when there was a strong argument to make that Oracle had become a “varsity” level position, even if not conventional.

    Treating Babs with respect has been something DC has faltered with more than once... and arguably something they still struggle with now, because they wasted the opportunity to bind together the fanbase as best they could a decade ago, and now have a fractured fanbase, similar to the situation with Superman or Wonder Woman.
    The argument that Oracle is “varsity” level falls apart when she’s not actually doing anything varsity level. I said this before, people have a problem with her going back to Batgirl but don’t say boo when she’s positioned under Batgirl. So the idea that that is fan perception is rather hollow. Even now readers aren’t clamoring for an Oracle solo, but a team Batgirl book. Hell look how much discussion her one Oracle story since her return has garnered. How many even checked it out.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 04-15-2021 at 05:09 PM.

  6. #396
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The argument that Oracle is “varsity” level falls apart when she’s not actually doing anything varsity level. I said this before, people have a problem with her going back to Batgirl but don’t say boo when she’s positioned under Batgirl. So the idea that that is fan perception is rather hollow. Even now readers aren’t clamoring for an Oracle solo, but a team Batgirl book. Hell look how much discussion her one Oracle story since her return has garnered. How many even checked it out.
    I feel like people expect Babs to be a lead in the Batgirls book, though.

  7. #397
    Spectacular Member sorboares's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I feel like people expect Babs to be a lead in the Batgirls book, though.
    Yes I would hope she would be a lead, id love to see her as Batgirl leading the other Batgirls and see her helping out as Oracle too.

  8. #398
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    Going from lead in Batgirl to a lead in Batgirl. Where is the other level there.

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Going from lead in Batgirl to a lead in Batgirl. Where is the other level there.
    I think it would probably function the same as the last BoP run.

  10. #400
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    Barbra seems very hesitant to hit the streets again
    I think that Cass and Steph as dual batgirls really is imminent, hopefully they can pull bluebird in their and have a junior BOP working

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Barbra seems very hesitant to hit the streets again
    It's been pointed out multiple times here why she has said she's cutting back on going into action as Batgirl at present, so why do you just say she "seems very hesitant" without giving the reason she's doing that?

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    It's been pointed out multiple times here why she has said she's cutting back on going into action as Batgirl at present, so why do you just say she "seems very hesitant" without giving the reason she's doing that?
    I just read Nightwing 79
    Something gonna force her out of her comfort zone eventually, I just hope whatever does won’t permanently injure her

  13. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    I just read Nightwing 79
    Something gonna force her out of her comfort zone eventually, I just hope whatever does won’t permanently injure her
    Yeah, they said she'll be in the book as Batgirl so it seems like something in the plot of that book is going to force her to suit up again.

    Probably be the same in the Batgirls book.

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, they said she'll be in the book as Batgirl so it seems like something in the plot of that book is going to force her to suit up again.

    Probably be the same in the Batgirls book.
    As long as she isn’t reduced to sprawling on the floor to her implant being damaged I’ll be good.

  15. #405
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    BTW, I wonder if swinging from rooftops is actually less physically impactful than punching out low-level hoods.

    Even so, it's a minor nit. I enjoyed Nightwing 79.

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