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  1. #211
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Her behind the scenes, not as Batgirl. Maybe commenting on wanting to be Batgirl, maybe not: she’ll be there, but she won’t be active. Cass and Steph fans will get what they’ve been pissing and moaning for at last and Barbara will suffer for it.
    We don't know enough about the book to say that for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    For how long and how competently? This could well be the vehicle Tynion approved to reason out why she’s ‘not good’ as Batgirl, hence the partner-position in someone else’s book rather than her own solo.
    I doubt Tynion is that directly involved in Tom Taylor's Nightwing. They wouldn't be talking her up as Batgirl if that were the case in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Here's the the thing though, when things are going down in the field they write plot armor so that she can't do anything. Ghost Maker had un-hackable tech for example. Her doing behind the scene things, despite being potentially effective, they don't actually want it to be that effective as its lacks visual flair and at the end of the day she's not the true hero of these stories. As to detective work at one point she called in others to literally just read for her. The vision of what she potentially could be, is just not what she currently is.
    She's ultimately a supporting character in a Batman book in this context, but I feel like that's where other books will pick up and show her in a more direct role.
    And I think your confusing what Oracle could do with what she actually is doing. Which is little more the dumping exposition and organizing appearances.
    I feel like we go around in circles as far as what we view Oracle as being, so I think we can both agree that there is more potential for Oracle than people give her credit for?

  2. #212
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Youíre a fan of Babs as Batgirl? Hardly seems that way at all . . .
    You obviously don't know me, and don't realize the last in-universe DC title I was still buying on a regular basis (until issue #38) was Batgirl.
    (The only other DC title I was regularly buying at that point was Scooby-Doo! Team-Up.)

  3. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    We don't know enough about the book to say that for sure.

    I doubt Tynion is that directly involved in Tom Taylor's Nightwing. They wouldn't be talking her up as Batgirl if that were the case in my opinion.

    She's ultimately a supporting character in a Batman book in this context, but I feel like that's where other books will pick up and show her in a more direct role.

    I feel like we go around in circles as far as what we view Oracle as being, so I think we can both agree that there is more potential for Oracle than people give her credit for?
    Tynion has gone on record to state that he wants this to be the most streamlined Bat-line ever; he’s even gone as far as to write a ‘bible’ of what he wants.

    And she isn’t just a supporting character in Batman: she’s a supporting character everywhere. Support, support, support; always someone else’s story and movements. -That’s- the problem with this approach; she can’t serve as anything -else.-

  4. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    You obviously don't know me, and don't realize the last in-universe DC title I was still buying on a regular basis (until issue #38) was Batgirl.
    (The only other DC title I was regularly buying at that point was Scooby-Doo! Team-Up.)
    The way you talk you seem to hate her and think little of her.

  5. #215
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    How much have we seen of Babs in the Oracle position since the start of March?

    Isn't it a little too early to judge how she'll function in the is role under the Infinite Frontier launch?
    Its been like 5 months. I think the motivation and intent is clear by now. Maybe at some point someone will eventually do something more meaningful with Oracle, but i certainly haven't heard of any Oracle solos in the pipeline, and most of the hints seem to be pointing to a Batgirls book if anything. Im not gonna ignore what they are currently doing, and not call it out for what it is, because maybe one day someone will do more. Again this is more of what could be vs what currently is.

  6. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    How much have we seen of Babs in the Oracle position since the start of March?

    Isn't it a little too early to judge how she'll function in the is role under the Infinite Frontier launch?
    No, it isnít because her speech made it abundantly clear. Tynion kept the Ďoptioní of Batgirl open in the hopes her fans would shut up, but itís clear her thinks so little of her that there wonít be any reason for him to have her suit up. Once in a while in comic books is equal to never.

  7. #217
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Tynion has gone on record to state that he wants this to be the most streamlined Bat-line ever; he’s even gone as far as to write a ‘bible’ of what he wants.
    We don't know what that bible entails. It seemingly doesn't preclude Babs from still going out in costume.
    And she isn’t just a supporting character in Batman: she’s a supporting character everywhere. Support, support, support; always someone else’s story and movements. -That’s- the problem with this approach; she can’t serve as anything -else.-
    I don't think Oracle has appeared much outside of Batman? I feel like she'll get a lot more do than she is in Batman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Its been like 5 months. I think the motivation and intent is clear by now. Maybe at some point someone will eventually do something more meaningful with Oracle, but i certainly haven't heard of any Oracle solos in the pipeline, and most of the hints seem to be pointing to a Batgirls book if anything. Im not gonna ignore what they are currently doing, and not call it out for what it is, because maybe one day someone will do more. Again this is more of what could be vs what currently is.
    I feel like the motivation and intent is to ease her back into being Oracle and set that as a foundation for that to be an aspect of the character moving forward but it's not erasing her as Batgirl.

  8. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    We don't know what that bible entails. It seemingly doesn't preclude Babs from still going out in costume.

    I don't think Oracle has appeared much outside of Batman? I feel like she'll get a lot more do than she is in Batman.

    I feel like the motivation and intent is to ease her back into being Oracle and set that as a foundation for that to be an aspect of the character moving forward but it's not erasing her as Batgirl.
    Tynion has “Big plans for -Oracle-“ he wants to “Evolve the Batgirl mythos” as in: replace her or have her serve only as Batgirl’s control centre not act -as- Batgirl. The bible that Taylor is to be working on could easily entail “Babs should be depicted as the weakest Batgirl” because that’s clearly how he see’s her, if he even has -any- respect for Batgirl at all. The lack of a defined Solo for Babs, plus his emphasis on having her use her Batgirl identity so sparingly is evidence enough.

    And he is essentially erasing her as Batgirl. He won’t give her the opportunity to suit up and prove herself: “what’s the need” the narrative will say, all the while Oracle only ever works as a glorified guest appearance for exposition under the guise of ‘useful.’

    And case in point: Babs hasn’t appeared much outside of Batman. She appeared more in other books in recent years as Batgirl.

  9. #219
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Tynion has “Big plans for -Oracle-“ he wants to “Evolve the Batgirl mythos” as in: replace her or have her serve only as Batgirl’s control centre not act -as- Batgirl. The bible that Taylor is to be working on could easily entail “Babs should be depicted as the weakest Batgirl” because that’s clearly how he see’s her, if he even has -any- respect for Batgirl at all. The lack of a defined Solo for Babs, plus his emphasis on having her use her Batgirl identity so sparingly is evidence enough.
    I feel like this is assuming a lot about what's going on and about Tynion's opinion. He places more emphasis on Oracle than Batgirl but that doesn't preclude others from using her as Batgirl as far as we know, otherwise she would just be Oracle in Nightwing.
    And he is essentially erasing her as Batgirl. He won’t give her the opportunity to suit up and prove herself: “what’s the need” the narrative will say, all the while Oracle only ever works as a glorified guest appearance for exposition under the guise of ‘useful.’
    Tynion's not erasing Batgirl. He's just using her as Oracle instead of Batgirl within his stories. There isn't really a need for Babs to prove herself?
    And case in point: Babs hasn’t appeared much outside of Batman. She appeared more in other books in recent years as Batgirl.
    Mostly Nightwing.

  10. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I feel like this is assuming a lot about what's going on and about Tynion's opinion. He places more emphasis on Oracle than Batgirl but that doesn't preclude others from using her as Batgirl as far as we know, otherwise she would just be Oracle in Nightwing.

    Tynion's not erasing Batgirl. He's just using her as Oracle instead of Batgirl within his stories. There isn't really a need for Babs to prove herself?

    Mostly Nightwing.
    His emphasis is on why Babs shouldn’t be Batgirl: he thinks two more crime fighters are enough to fill the role, not caring for what she brought to the role or even what the other two do. His emphasis is on downplaying her accomplishments as Batgirl, i.e “I could never be everywhere,” except that, yes, technology is remote enough for you to be able to do that on the go. You can fix it so it -can- happen.

    And this isn’t about Babs proving herself, she’s more than done that (even if Tynion thinks differently) it’s about her getting her due. Her getting to actually be and -succeed- as Batgirl in equal measure as Oracle.

  11. #221
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    I'm confused.
    I originally said:
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    How much have we seen of Babs in the Oracle position since the start of March?

    Isn't it a little too early to judge how she'll function in the is role under the Infinite Frontier launch?
    You then quoted me and responded with:
    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Its been like 5 months. I think the motivation and intent is clear by now. Maybe at some point someone will eventually do something more meaningful with Oracle, but i certainly haven't heard of any Oracle solos in the pipeline, and most of the hints seem to be pointing to a Batgirls book if anything. Im not gonna ignore what they are currently doing, and not call it out for what it is, because maybe one day someone will do more. Again this is more of what could be vs what currently is.
    Am I missing something?

    Is it now July 2021 where you are?
    How do you come up with "It's been like five months" in response to my question of "How much have we seen of Babs in the Oracle position since the start of March?"
    And my whole point of what I wrote was that we're just starting to see what will happen from Infinite Frontier, so maybe it's premature to say that just because she's been a bit idle since Batgirl #50 that things will necessarily continue as they were prior to Infinite Frontier #0?

  12. #222
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    There really isn’t a need for Bruce to prove himself as Batman.
    He should probably just sit in the cave at the Batcomputer and direct others. He would probably be more important, and more at the center of the Batuniverse than ever. Or simply use his wealth, position, and power to create a better Gotham. I’m sure that if there were a passionate fanbase that wanted to see another- or maybe two other- characters as Batman, that they would agree that that would make him a far more interesting character.

    But that’s not how superhero comics work.

  13. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicbattery View Post
    There really isn’t a need for Bruce to prove himself as Batman.
    He should probably just sit in the cave at the Batcomputer and direct others. He would probably be more important, and more at the center of the Batuniverse than ever. Or simply use his wealth, position, and power to create a better Gotham. I’m sure that if there were a passionate fanbase that wanted to see another- or maybe two other- characters as Batman, that they would agree that that would make him a far more interesting character.

    But that’s not how superhero comics work.
    -You- get it. Let’s just try and pull this with Bruce or Dick and see what happens. I mean, there were like 5 other Nightwings right? And a billion other Robins? They all did it WAY better! The others are just blind nostalgia, lol!

  14. #224
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    -You- get it. Letís just try and pull this with Bruce or Dick and see what happens. I mean, there were like 5 other Nightwings right? And a billion other Robins? They all did it WAY better! The others are just blind nostalgia, lol!
    As a fan of Nightwing, it bugs the hell out of me that there are so many Robins. Bad for the brand.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  15. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    As a fan of Nightwing, it bugs the hell out of me that there are so many Robins. Bad for the brand.
    Why? Dick does the exact same thing no matter what costume he dons. The Robins do too, but they get their own books ‘cos they’re -extra special.- Now Dick? Clearly he was more important as Agent 37!

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