Magnus Family appreciation 2021

[Daedra]

thats the point? what she is trying to do vs the reasons and why shes doing it what makes her a bad characther.

Everytime she tries to fix it she isnt doing it for the mutants or to truly reverse what she did, she doesnt know or ever get truly involved to grasp the situation.
She's trying to absolve herself but never once puts herself humbly in the midde of those she harmed, and understand that her feelings aren't whats important here, she never presents herself in front of the affected party and show any compassion or even basic acountability, she's only defensive and Hollier than thou.
She's more concerned with HER feelings, HER issues, and how her horrid actions affect HER, she wants to take a redemption witout even thinking of the affected party as the true victims.

If she didn't care about the victims she would not be trying to fix her actions, she would just ignore what others perceive as a problem and that's not what has happened........ all this concern for the victims seems to be relevant only when it comes to wanda, krakoa and the x-men are full of mutants that made victims out of innocents and they weren't even possessed by madness inducing arcane entities, the same goes for other marvel characters, they just go on with their lives and forget about it, they never "put themselves humbly in the hands of those they have harmed"..... the only difference here is in the numbers due to Wanda's incredible amount of power.

Ok I think we have definitely reached that point in a debate where arguments just go full circle.

[Ferro]

If she didn't care about the victims she would not be trying to fix her actions, she would just ignore what others perceive as a problem and that's not what has happened........ all this concern for the victims seems to be relevant only when it comes to wanda, krakoa and the x-men are full of mutants that made victims out of innocents and they weren't even possessed by madness inducing arcane entities, the same goes for other marvel characters, they just go on with their lives and forget about it..... the only difference here is in the numbers due to Wanda's incredible amount of power.

Ok I think we have definitely reached that point in a debate where arguments just go full circle.

The difrence here is the party that gave the amnesty, the reasons and the terms:

Krakoa is a nation, a new nation a that, of people that have been hunted and culled many times over in a society that inheritly causes some mutants to head into darker-paths, these bad apples as we see in many books are people that react with violence to human opression, victims of upbringing/enviorement, and then of course the true evils that are necessary, they are needed for their power, numbers and knowledge AND with their fresh start comes rules, rules wich if failed to uphold bring dire and immediate consequences.
none of these villains are given a "redemption" that cleans their slate clean, many are reminded of their past actions and treated with reasonable mistrust and discomfort, there isn't any punishment or even scolding to anyone that holds these villains to their past actions in their treatment, we saw that with apocalypse, greycrow and jaime

Overall it's a grey decision, each of them can make use of their new fresh start (as many do as we see in DOX ROX), others may not and it is an issue some villains get this protection, but it is still saving tens of thousands for each bad apple, and in any ecosystem serpents are necessary.

It brings good and bad but when it comes to countries expecting simplistic ethics is silly, there's layers to this decision and to this situation and the scale is much larger, the narrative treats it as such.

Wanda however, said madness came from one thing : wanda is selfish, self centered and reckless, played with fire and everyone but her got burned
The entity that offered her a redemption was ... her teammates, the avengers, a superhero team of private citizens that is sometimes goverment funded, who states themselves as "the earth's mightiest heroes", a simple team of vigilantes that protect the world agaist evil.
They represent goodness, justice and heroism! yet when it came to the x-men, who you could say at the time were a similar superhero team, wanted to have wanda acountable for her actions steve rogers decided that "avengers take care of their own"
The reasoning for her immediate forgiveness was... past attachment of the earth's mightest heroes to a woman that twisted reality to a point saturnyne herself considered the destruction of 616, yet not only is her forgiveness immediate, the narrative goes out of it's way to praticaly finger wag the x-men for their "bitternes" and "anger" at a poor inocent woman, witout ever thinking of everyother character wanda victimized.

The terms? none, they accept her witout even telling her to be careful with her abilities, as she goes on to mess up several spells, be possesed by chton, all things that support the x-men's hatred of her however don't you dare consider the scarlet witch anything but a hero!!
she's an avenger!!

the situations arent the same at all, villains still being considered villains in a game of nations where they sign a mutualy benefitial agreement to the betterment of 200 k mutants in an hostile world, ceasing being threats to the world Isnt the same as superheroic nepotism that absolved her of any and all crimes with a slap on the wrist as anyone that contests her title as member of the in universe definition of heroism is writen as resentfull bullies

Wanda is on that mutant massacre list for a reason, she's a definitive mutant villain that everyone pretends deserves to be considered a hero.
An actual wolf in sheep's clothing.

[Daedra]

The difrence here is the party that gave the amnesty, the reasons and the terms:

Krakoa is a nation, a new nation a that, of people that have been hunted and culled many times over in a society that inheritly causes some mutants to head into darker-paths, these bad apples as we see in many books are people that react with violence to human opression, victims of upbringing/enviorement, and then of course the true evils that are necessary, they are needed for their power, numbers and knowledge AND with their fresh start comes rules, rules wich if failed to uphold bring dire and immediate consequences.
none of these villains are given a "redemption" that cleans their slate clean, many are reminded of their past actions and treated with reasonable mistrust and discomfort, there isn't any punishment or even scolding to anyone that holds these villains to their past actions in their treatment, we saw that with apocalypse, greycrow and jaime

Overall it's a grey decision, each of them can make use of their new fresh start (as many do as we see in DOX ROX), others may not and it is an issue some villains get this protection, but it is still saving tens of thousands for each bad apple, and in any ecosystem serpents are necessary.

It brings good and bad but when it comes to countries expecting simplistic ethics is silly, there's layers to this decision and to this situation and the scale is much larger, the narrative treats it as such.

Wanda however, said madness came from one thing : wanda is selfish, self centered and reckless, played with fire and everyone but her got burned
The entity that offered her a redemption was ... her teammates, the avengers, a superhero team of private citizens that is sometimes goverment funded, who states themselves as "the earth's mightiest heroes", a simple team of vigilantes that protect the world agaist evil.
They represent goodness, justice and heroism! yet when it came to the x-men, who you could say at the time were a similar superhero team, wanted to have wanda acountable for her actions steve rogers decided that "avengers take care of their own"
The reasoning for her immediate forgiveness was... past attachment of the earth's mightest heroes to a woman that twisted reality to a point saturnyne herself considered the destruction of 616, yet not only is her forgiveness immediate, the narrative goes out of it's way to praticaly finger wag the x-men for their "bitternes" and "anger" at a poor inocent woman, witout ever thinking of everyother character wanda victimized.

The terms? none, they accept her witout even telling her to be careful with her abilities, as she goes on to mess up several spells, be possesed by chton, all things that support the x-men's hatred of her however don't you dare consider the scarlet witch anything but a hero!!
she's an avenger!!

the situations arent the same at all, villains still being considered villains in a game of nations where they sign a mutualy benefitial agreement to the betterment of 200 k mutants in an hostile world, ceasing being threats to the world Isnt the same as superheroic nepotism that absolved her of any and all crimes with a slap on the wrist as anyone that contests her title as member of the in universe definition of heroism is writen as resentfull bullies

Wanda is on that mutant massacre list for a reason, she's a definitive mutant villain that everyone pretends deserves to be considered a hero.
An actual wolf in sheep's clothing.

Wanda's action were the result of her possession by the Life Entity, she never in her right mind set out to purposely wipe out the mutant race, that's why her friends stand by her and she's not considered a villain by her colleagues.
the krakoa state argument really doesn't work for me, self absolution isn't a new thing among mutant and super powered individuals circles alike.

[GenericUsername]

It's always surprising to me that people think Wanda would set out from the start to depower mutants when she didn't have much to do with them, and it wasn't ever really a concern for her that they existed. She wasn't even pressed about Mags. She just didn't have anything to do with him.

[GenericUsername]

The difrence here is the party that gave the amnesty, the reasons and the terms:

Krakoa is a nation, a new nation a that, of people that have been hunted and culled many times over in a society that inheritly causes some mutants to head into darker-paths, these bad apples as we see in many books are people that react with violence to human opression, victims of upbringing/enviorement, and then of course the true evils that are necessary, they are needed for their power, numbers and knowledge AND with their fresh start comes rules, rules wich if failed to uphold bring dire and immediate consequences.
none of these villains are given a "redemption" that cleans their slate clean, many are reminded of their past actions and treated with reasonable mistrust and discomfort, there isn't any punishment or even scolding to anyone that holds these villains to their past actions in their treatment, we saw that with apocalypse, greycrow and jaime

Overall it's a grey decision, each of them can make use of their new fresh start (as many do as we see in DOX ROX), others may not and it is an issue some villains get this protection, but it is still saving tens of thousands for each bad apple, and in any ecosystem serpents are necessary.

It brings good and bad but when it comes to countries expecting simplistic ethics is silly, there's layers to this decision and to this situation and the scale is much larger, the narrative treats it as such.

Wanda however, said madness came from one thing : wanda is selfish, self centered and reckless, played with fire and everyone but her got burned
The entity that offered her a redemption was ... her teammates, the avengers, a superhero team of private citizens that is sometimes goverment funded, who states themselves as "the earth's mightiest heroes", a simple team of vigilantes that protect the world agaist evil.
They represent goodness, justice and heroism! yet when it came to the x-men, who you could say at the time were a similar superhero team, wanted to have wanda acountable for her actions steve rogers decided that "avengers take care of their own"
The reasoning for her immediate forgiveness was... past attachment of the earth's mightest heroes to a woman that twisted reality to a point saturnyne herself considered the destruction of 616, yet not only is her forgiveness immediate, the narrative goes out of it's way to praticaly finger wag the x-men for their "bitternes" and "anger" at a poor inocent woman, witout ever thinking of everyother character wanda victimized.

The terms? none, they accept her witout even telling her to be careful with her abilities, as she goes on to mess up several spells, be possesed by chton, all things that support the x-men's hatred of her however don't you dare consider the scarlet witch anything but a hero!!
she's an avenger!!

the situations arent the same at all, villains still being considered villains in a game of nations where they sign a mutualy benefitial agreement to the betterment of 200 k mutants in an hostile world, ceasing being threats to the world Isnt the same as superheroic nepotism that absolved her of any and all crimes with a slap on the wrist as anyone that contests her title as member of the in universe definition of heroism is writen as resentfull bullies

Wanda is on that mutant massacre list for a reason, she's a definitive mutant villain that everyone pretends deserves to be considered a hero.
An actual wolf in sheep's clothing.

That's because she was a hero for forty years, then got possessed and after the possession was lifted was still a hero. All the judgments of her come from her very few appearances in x-books that only serve to fuel mutant stories and did absolutely nothing for Wanda. Not even line up to previous canon or anything afterward. It's like people that judge her based on cartoons. It's a very myopic view of the character.

[GenericUsername]

Yeah she was the original mutant genocider to get an amnesty, it came from the avengers tho !
she went from a self hating hypocrite that was given special treatment to another evil human that hates mutants.

She never hated mutants before Bendis' story that did not follow previous canon. She never had a bad thing to say about mutants before that. She actually had a whole lot of bad things to say about humans. She was also not self-hating until he wrote her.

[Ferro]

That's because she was a hero for forty years, then got possessed and after the possession was lifted was still a hero. All the judgments of her come from her very few appearances in x-books that only serve to fuel mutant stories and did absolutely nothing for Wanda. Not even line up to previous canon or anything afterward. It's like people that judge her based on cartoons. It's a very myopic view of the character.

its what we have when it concerns wanda and mutants, im goin with it in that prespective.
She's an avenger and a hero in those corners of marvel yes, but what I stated and what I belive is she is a villain to the x-men and its corner of marvel

[GenericUsername]

its what we have when it concerns wanda and mutants, im goin with it in that prespective.
She's an avenger and a hero in those corners of marvel yes, but what I stated and what I belive is she is a villain to the x-men and its corner of marvel

Which is why she needs to stay out of the x-books. They don't know how to write her. And choose to use her to make people riled up and sell comics through controversy.

[Ferro]

Which is why she needs to stay out of the x-books. They don't know how to write her. And choose to use her to make people riled up and sell comics through controversy.

I mean were it the other way around and an avengers villain that caused some long period of drastic measures and pain to the team became an x-men or was an x-men, it makes no sense not to at least reference it.
Wanda's a villain, an enourmous one the same as cassandra nova, purifiers and orchis, she's going to be used because no villain that causes 8 years or so of suffering to a group of characters should be ignored by it's main writer

[GenericUsername]

I mean were it the other way around and an avengers villain that caused some long period of drastic measures and pain to the team became an x-men or was an x-men, it makes no sense not to at least reference it.
Wanda's a villain, an enourmous one the same as cassandra nova, purifiers and orchis, she's going to be used because no villain that causes 8 years or so of suffering to a group of characters should be ignored by it's main writer

If they were possessed like Cyke was with PF or Wanda is with the life force, I'd just consider it that. Because comics does that every Tuesday now. She did wipe out the Avengers as well. And wasn't even the first to do that. Happened with Tony during the Crossing. You don't hear about those as much. As a matter of fact, no one ever brings up that Tony Stark is not the same Tony Stark. Even before he became an AI.

[Ferro]

If they were possessed like Cyke was with PF or Wanda is with the life force, I'd just consider it that. Because comics does that every Tuesday now. She did wipe out the Avengers as well. And wasn't even the first to do that. Happened with Tony during the Crossing. You don't hear about those as much. As a matter of fact, no one ever brings up that Tony Stark is not the same Tony Stark. Even before he became an AI.

i mean cyke didnt get off easy, that comparison betwen their treatment was a crux of conflict that increased hostility towards wanda, as she pretty much used her avengers card as a get out of jail card as well, while several x-men were wanted criminals.

[GenericUsername]

i mean cyke didnt get off easy, that comparison betwen their treatment was a crux of conflict that increased hostility towards wanda, as she pretty much used her avengers card as a get out of jail card as well, while several x-men were wanted criminals.

He was in prison but for a minute in comics time, lol. She was out of comics for years. He got a teen version. They couldn't keep her in jail. So corporal punishment wouldn't work. They need something in universe to keep people from being possessed, but then that would take away most of their story ideas.

[Ferro]

He was in prison but for a minute in comics time, lol. She was out of comics for years. He got a teen version. They couldn't keep her in jail. So corporal punishment wouldn't work. They need something in universe to keep people from being possessed, but then that would take away most of their story ideas.

the fact he was put in a prison in the first place witout any trial AND set up to be killed off is miles ahead what wanda ever suffered in universe for her far worse actions, as the reason of her possesion came from reckless abuse of magic AND seeking out doom.
im not necessarly talking meta, im talking in universe, what happens in the story and the world, and wanda ABSOLUTLY got off easy witout any shred of acountability.

[Daedra]

i mean cyke didnt get off easy, that comparison betwen their treatment was a crux of conflict that increased hostility towards wanda, as she pretty much used her avengers card as a get out of jail card as well, while several x-men were wanted criminals.

that's not on Wanda though, he unleashed his phoenix induced rage on the world and got off as easy as anyone after some relatively short term drama.

[GenericUsername]

the fact he was put in a prison in the first place witout any trial AND set up to be killed off is miles ahead what wanda ever suffered in universe for her far worse actions, as the reason of her possesion came from reckless abuse of magic AND seeking out doom.
im not necessarly talking meta, im talking in universe, what happens in the story and the world, and wanda ABSOLUTLY got off easy witout any shred of acountability.

I wouldn't say that. Wolverine claws through the gut probably hurts pretty badly I imagine. But it's not about who got the worst punishment. It's that A-side doesn't really hold those kinds of grudges against characters because these possession stories are so common. Good character gone bad has been a staple in comics since the 80s. When edgy started to become popular. And they didn't want the super clean superheroes anymore.

So yeah I am talking sort of meta and sort of in universe. Because even though there have been several bad events in comics, even by other heroes, M-day is the only one that gets remembered. No one remembers Tony being possessed by Kang, no one remembers Vision being taken over by ISAAC. Because it's done so much on that side. And probably will again. If it were an x-character that wiped everything out but was possessed, I'd just think they were possessed. Not anything out of the ordinary for how Marvel treats it's heroes. Everyone comes back anyway. Anyone important.