Magnus Family appreciation 2021

[Zelena]

But Lorna hasn't received that from Marvel. Historically, and right this second as I'm typing this post.

Historically Lorna hasn’t been treated well by Claremont… which is odd considering the attention he gave to each of his characters. Her background has been minimal. No author really bothered to fill the voids.

I don’t know if it has changed now, but at the beginning, there wasn’t much material to play with…

[salarta]

Historically Lorna hasn’t been treated well by Claremont… which is odd considering the attention he gave to each of his characters. Her background has been minimal. No author really bothered to fill the voids.

I don’t know if it has changed now, but at the beginning, there wasn’t much material to play with…

In one sense, it's true that there wasn't much to work with. But the same could have been said about Jean too, at the time. Ways were found to develop Jean and make her more memorable and meaningful, leading into the status she has today and why Dark Phoenix is so well-known and popular. Setting all valid criticism and complaints about Dark Phoenix aside, why was nothing similar done with Lorna? As far as I'm aware, there was no attitude that Jean had to be defined first and foremost as a clingy girlfriend of Cyclops who gets used and abused all the time. Why Lorna?

In another sense, I think there was actually plenty of material to play with. Even in a scenario where Lorna isn't considered Magneto's daughter, why couldn't stories be told juxtaposing them? As stories in the 90s and early 00s showed, the dynamic between Lorna and Magneto powers and philosophy wise could have been explored without Lorna as his daughter. In Giant-Size X-Men, we got to see Lorna launch Krakoa into space with a power boost from Storm mainly, and a bit from Cyclops and Havok. Couldn't Lorna's limits with those powers have been explored? One very easy idea might've been Lorna wanting to test and push herself to see what she's capable of. There are all sorts of directions Claremont could've gone with that, even without making those stories focused on her. And of course there's always her home life pre-X-Men. Was there anything from her past, considering she had green hair she used to have to hide, that could make a resurgence?

They're faint pieces that didn't have much writing of them. Which is why I say "it's true there wasn't much to work with." But at the same time, those faint pieces could have been built up to so much more in the hands of a writer that cares enough to pursue them.

[jmc247]

It’s fairly simple in that Lorna’s 60s role on the X-Men passed to a new character. Then more and more new X-Men came on and Lorna didn’t return to the X-Men full time until Austen’s run.

Lorna still could need an awesome character in the 70s and 80s leading her to be up there with the top 10 today if Marvel had let her be a bad ass antagonist like Mystique, Emma, and her father. Instead she was a terrible antagonist much of the time because mind control plot lines were used instead of letting her decide as she did briefly in the 60s to fight for mutants in a different way.

By the time 1999-2000 rolled around they finally started getting back to the promise of her original story, but how often has bad pathos and old ideas that kept her behind cropped in there? Still the events on Genosha were better in terms of motivation for Lorna then anything to date.

I also think she suffered from the rise of Magneto as a full time X-Men while she was in space so when she came back she had no narrative space on the core x-titles. Ironically Magneto in space/SWORD just might give her some breathing room.

If I had a say over her story I would have had her lead an Acolyte like team in the 2015-2018 time frame which would have allowed her to interact with her contemporary X-Men without being an X-Man herself at the time, but it wasn’t up to me obviously.

[Lucyinthesky]

I think Lorna and Havok´s problem to an extend was that they were seen as the alternative "Scott and Jean" and Lorna often worked as "Jean´s friend", "Havok´s girlfriend", " Malice possesed","Zaladane (possible sister)" , "Magneto´s daughter" and now she´s "Northstar supporting leader" the main problem in her development was that on writers povs she was always written as a supporting character who was there to help develop other characters while her own story was not really thought of, I think even PAD who added her interest on mutant - human issues, as something that actually mattered to her and not only because she was "Havok´s girlfriend" often fell on this narrative. So I think any future writer not only has to delve into why all those relationships are important for Lorna but what matters to her? What are her plans for her life on Krakoa? Does she think it will be better than Genosha or not? etc just stories in which she´s the main character and the story is from her pov.

I don´t think writer should go the other extreme and just say "She needs to cut off those other relationships to discover herself" but she needs some character moments of her own where we can discover what matters to her personally and what she would like to bring to Krakoa as a member of that society or if she would like to have closer links with the rest of humanity. All those are important questions that need to be answered when writting her so she can go from being thought as a supporting character to a character with her own thoughts, motives and initiatives and go from there in her interactions with the rest of the characters.

[jmc247]

I think Lorna and Havok´s problem to an extend was that they were seen as the alternative "Scott and Jean" and Lorna often worked as "Jean´s friend", "Havok´s girlfriend", " Malice possesed","Zaladane (possible sister)" , "Magneto´s daughter" and now she´s "Northstar supporting leader" the main problem in her development was that on writers povs she was always written as a supporting character who was there to help develop other characters while her own story was not really thought of, I think even PAD who added her interest on mutant - human issues, as something that actually mattered to her and not only because she was "Havok´s girlfriend" often fell on this narrative. So I think any future writer not only has to delve into why all those relationships are important for Lorna but what matters to her? What are her plans for her life on Krakoa? Does she think it will be better than Genosha or not? etc just stories in which she´s the main character and the story is from her pov.

I don´t think writer should go the other extreme and just say "She needs to cut off those other relationships to discover herself" but she needs some character moments of her own where we can discover what matters to her personally and what she would like to bring to Krakoa as a member of that society or if she would like to have closer links with the rest of humanity. All those are important questions that need to be answered when writting her so she can go from being thought as a supporting character to a character with her own thoughts, motives and initiatives and go from there in her interactions with the rest of the characters.

PAD gave her a little more interest in mutant issues then previously, but it was moreso JM Dematteis, Alan Davis and Morrison/Austen that gave her something akin to what we saw of her views at the start of this new era under Hickman.

I will say in Howard Mackie's era on the books in the mid 90s he did have Lorna 'find herself' and cut her off for about two years from being focused on 'others' in her life. It could have worked if Lorna had been more like the post Genosha genocide one. Instead she was on a non-government sanctioned X-Factor team with the likes of Mystique and Sabertooth and Lorna was left with the scolding mom/Jean lite role which is why that era was forgotten.



Polaris, Sabertooth, and Mystique operating outside the law stacked up against anti-mutant fanatics at minimum should have felt like an X-Force at maximum a Brotherhood team with Purfifiers and others not having a good day. Instead it was tame and uninteresting in no small part because Lorna wasn't rid of the mother hen Jean lite stink.

[Lucyinthesky]

I have not read his run but did he write moments in which Lorna thought to herself about her reasons for being there?

I think her wanting to keep Sabretooth and Mystique in control is interesting but she also needs some general pov in her approach on mutant issues.

For example: Nightcrawler wants to understand people and help those mutants that like himself are not seen well for their appareance and his approach to mutant issues always has been on the humanist side.

Storm sees herself as a leader for the X-men and mutantkind so that´s her approach to it

Jean seer herself as the spiritual heir to Charles and the heart of the X-men, trying to keep and defend their heroic side.

Betsy always had a mix of her british identity a wish for adventure but also to make things better for mutants even if she had to go into the more extreme side.

Cyclops is the heir of Charles for the X-men so he sees himself as the main leader for them.

Wolverine works solo but he will always be there for the X-men because they are his family and for mutants when they need him

Rogue can work solo, as a member of her team or as a leader, she´s deeply grateful for charles because she helped her and now sees the X-men as her family.

So what´s Lorna approach to mutant issues?

I liked when PAD wrote her reasons for wanting to work for X-factor investigations she didn´t want to separate herself from the rest of humanity and she mainly wants to do some good with her powers and her team but now that they are living on Krakoa, what are her reasons for working on X-factor besides helping Northstar and the Original Five?

Leah has added the pressure she feels for the expectations Magneto has on her but I think if she´s exploring this she should add some scenes of the previous time where they worked together on Genosha and she didn´t feel such a strong pressure, maybe because she didn´t know he was her father so her feelings and motives were focused on doing good for mutants on Genosha.

Here I see a different in approach, sometimes Lorna sees herself as the heir of Magneto and gets a little militant, other times she just wants to do some good and keep the link with humanity, it would be interesting to see her concile those two sides of her pov.

[jmc247]

I have not read his run but did he write moments in which Lorna thought to herself about her reasons for being there?

What reason do you think she gave in the era where her life revolved around her boyfriend? I think you are also mixing up runs because PAD has had three different runs with her.

I think her wanting to keep Sabretooth and Mystique in control is interesting but she also needs some general pov on mutant issues.

Lorna without any extremes comes off frankly dull and entirely replaceable. Read the issues yourself of the X-Factor 120s thru 140s and decide yourself or don't.

Lorna should be willing to save women and children from Sabertooth's rage, but that charitability shouldn't extend to everyone unless under specific orders on the subject and with many she should be more then willing to do in herself. Lorna should be more ruthless then Betsy in my humble opinion, but not as much as Bucktooth boy.

For example: Nightcrawler wants to understand people and his approach to mutant issues always has been on the humanist side.

Storm sees herself as a leader for the X-men and mutantkind so that´s her approach to it

Jean seer herself as the spiritual heir to Charles and the heart of the X-men, trying to keep and defend their heroic side.

Betsy always had a mix of her british identity a wish for adventure but also to make things better for mutants even if she had to go into the more extreme side.

JM's run was the only time in the 90s Lorna had a specific view on mutant/human issues and it was (intentionally based on his interviews) a throwback to her 1960s of integrationalism, but willing to use deadly force for those would would kill or capture mutants.



This was the view PAD settled on as well in his second and third run with her not his first. During Genosha she said she began to believe in the dream of a mutant homeland.

[Lucyinthesky]

I am talking about PAD´s run from the 2012 and 2015, I have good memories from there because she told Alex she would not leave the team only because he wanted to, I liked her taking that initiative after so many issues of them being lost in space and her just supporting them there. Thanks for the scans, that was the time the goverment wanted to use her to fight Magneto right?

90s Lorna had a specific view on mutant/human issues and it was (intentionally based on his interviews) a throwback to her 1960s of integrationalism, but willing to use deadly force for those would would kill or capture mutants.

This pov makes a lot of sense for her but I expect after Genosha she would change part of it becoming more militant.

[jmc247]

I am talking about PAD´s run from the 2012 and 2015, I have good memories from there because she told Alex she would not leave the team only because he wanted to, I liked her taking that initiative after so many issues of them being lost in space and her just supporting them there. Thanks for the scans, that was the time the goverment wanted to use her to fight Magneto right?

Yes. They wanted to brainwash her to destroy Avalon and fight Magneto yes.

This pov makes a lot of sense for her but I expect after Genosha she would change part of it becoming more militant.

For awhile yes.

Then writers wanted to go back to girl behind Havok, mind control, and other far less interesting pathos and by 2006 she was a flat generic character again. Then they bounced around a fair bit in characterization, but they divorced her from mutant issues and being a survivor and she has suffered ever since.

What I think Lorna needed and didn’t get was an antagonist arc (not mind controlled) where she had to go up against the core X-Men like Jean, Storm, Rogue, etc. Her relationship with them is either irrelevant, boring, or just plan doesn’t exist. Her father in contrast has deep and complex relations with all of them.

I actually don’t mind Lorna on something like X-Factor perhaps once a decade (not three runs), but Marvel should have been willing to take more risks with her post HoM. They played it safe post HoM and she spun her wheels.

[Lucyinthesky]

Yes I see your point, the problem as that for her to be an antagonist something extreme must happen to her because for most of her career she has been an heroic character, she would need a Dark Phoenix, HoM level of event to put her on an antagonist role and revive some of her old links to the X-men in a whole new way.


Another option would be changing team, it may do her some good. I think she may be a part of the new X-men team post Gala but even if that´s not the case, a change of scenario would do her some good. The problem is that right now most teams are already merged but I think they will shake things up a little after the Gala is done, so lest hope she ends on a different team.

[jmc247]

Happy Birthday Michael Fassbender!!

Yes I see your point, the problem as that for her to be an antagonist something extreme must happen to her because for most of her career she has been an heroic character, she would need a Dark Phoenix, HoM level of event to put her on an antagonist role and revive some of her old links to the X-men in a whole new way.

I don't think Wanda's role in House of M or Jean's role in Dark Phoenix Saga are quite the right analogies. Too far from their normal characterization and goals, though the core idea of having a big conflict hanging over their heads is on target. It would have to be something which fans remember and by in large have Lorna in her right mind. Out of that can flow a decade or two of stories and relationship building.

Lorna having relationships with other characters based on contention and political differences though not to the point of open fighting might work, but that would take a very skilled pen to pull it off and no one has been able to do it as yet.

Another option would be changing team, it may do her some good. I think she may be a part of the new X-men team post Gala but even if that´s not the case, a change of scenario would do her some good. The problem is that right now most teams are already merged but I think they will shake things up a little after the Gala is done, so lest hope she ends on a different team.

She might or might not change teams, but I question strongly if even Hickman could succeed at producing raw and exciting relationships between Lorna and the other X-Men at this point. Her relationships with them are so completely ossified that any run is like starting over from scratch and its not like runs have much time these days to build relationships. Though I will maintain if a writer has a great idea and takes real risks anything is possible.

[juan678]

Happy Birthday Michael Fassbender!!

repost Gifted

[salarta]

I think Lorna and Havok´s problem to an extend was that they were seen as the alternative "Scott and Jean" and Lorna often worked as "Jean´s friend", "Havok´s girlfriend", " Malice possesed", "Magneto´s daughter" and now she´s "Northstar supporting leader" the main problem in her development was that on writers povs she was always written as a supporting character who was there to help develop other characters while her own story was not really thought of, I think even PAD who added her interest on mutant - human issues, as something that actually mattered to her and not only because she was "Havok´s girlfriend" often fell on this narrative. So I think any future writer not only has to delve into why all those relationships are important for Lorna but what matters to her? What are her plans for her life on Krakoa? Does she think it will be better than Genosha or not? etc just stories in which she´s the main character and the story is from her pov.

I don't think writer should go the other extreme and just say "She needs to cut off those other relationships to discover herself" but she needs some character moments of her own where we can discover what matters to her personally and what she would like to bring to Krakoa as a member of that society or if she would like to have closer links with the rest of humanity. All those are important questions that need to be answered when writting her so she can go from being thought as a supporting character to a character with her own thoughts, motives and initiatives.

Among the points you hit on here, a great one I want to focus on is that "what does she think of Krakoa" part. There are a LOT of directions Lorna could go in her views of Krakoa that are absolutely valid, as long as they're couched in her history, particularly Genosha. But that "couched in her history" part is the most essential, and seems to be the most difficult part for Marvel to bear in mind.

The most "generous" interpretation of Lorna as a supporting character for Northstar (I think using the word leader is a big stretch) on X-Factor would be in the vein of Lorna as Merlin to Northstar as Arthur. But among many other problems, the book's had multiple instances of Lorna doing "stupid" things and getting ridiculed or chastised for it, which destroys the "trusted advisor" Merlin-like angle. Aside from that, it's a huge problem to do to Lorna given past poor treatment, history being ignored, and her character not getting properly explored. Which Marvel seems to treat like separate boxes to tick with minimal effort rather than interconnected issues requiring thoughtful consideration. If she was doing more, or more important, things outside of X-Factor, then Lorna on the team supporting Northstar is simply good oversight. By itself, it just comes off as Marvel going out of their way to hold her back and put her down.

I think she does need her relationship with Havok temporarily cut off. They're not a couple, but I don't think the relationship can truly be considered "cut off" because Marvel keeps forcing in reminders of it, while not doing anything that truly gets to the heart of Lorna, what she offers, and what she's been deprived for so long. But I say temporarily because I think their relationship can be salvaged if Marvel's willing to do the work. Marvel just hasn't been willing. They've been taking it more in the "sorry if you were offended" vein where they seem to recognize there are problems but don't want to fix them. All her other relationships, I think could still be used and pursued assuming good and respectful treatment with her history and all kept in mind. Havok is the only case that's become too toxic to touch for a while.

Leah has added the pressure she feels for the expectations Magneto has on her but I think if she´s exploring this she should add some scenes of the previous time where they worked together on Genosha and she didn´t feel such a strong pressure, maybe because she didn´t know he was her father so her feelings and motives were focused on doing good for mutants on Genosha.

Here I see a different in approach, sometimes Lorna sees herself as the heir of Magneto and gets a little militant, other times she just wants to do some good and keep the link with humanity, it would be interesting to see her concile those two sides of her pov.

I think most of X-Factor's framing of Lorna isn't there to actually explore Lorna. It's there to justify her being on the book with the role and personality mold they want to force her to fit.

Why isn't she leading X-Factor or taking some other kind of leadership position? "Oh, uh, cause she doesn't feel comfortable with leading anything." Why is she 'choosing' to be Northstar's helper on X-Factor, specifically, rather than a team member on a more prominent team or going solo? "Oh, uh, because she wants to find herself and she's done noooooothing before that involved finding herself." From that lens, I see "Lorna feels pressure to meet Magneto's expectations" as just another excuse they're trying to use to justify not letting her do anything more meaningful that involves more responsibility and prestige.

Saying Lorna has too much anxiety to want to do anything with her life makes it awfully convenient for people at Marvel that don't want her to do anything with her life.

Now, if Marvel had a goal of doing right by Lorna, then her feeling pressure to meet Magneto's expectations could be a positive. It could be another driving force for her to aspire to the best she can be. But right now, it's the opposite. It's being used as an excuse to make her worse.

Yes I see your point, the problem as that for her to be an antagonist something extreme must happen to her because for most of her career she has been an heroic character, she would need a Dark Phoenix, HoM level of event to put her on an antagonist role and revive some of her old links to the X-men in a whole new way.

I've had a headcanon for a while of Lorna used to deconstruct Dark Phoenix and HoM style scenarios. I've noted before that Marvel has a problem of "women as powerful failures" where they're framed as failing to control their powers and deserving hatred and derision for it. Lorna would be an excellent character to use for this, and it was Marvel themselves that already set up this idea. They did it by presenting AU Lorna, Wanda and Jean as The Hysteries in Fantastic Force in the late 00s.

If such a thing was made, I agree with jmc that it needs to be Lorna herself. She can't be brainwashed, mind controlled, or possessed. If she is, we'll see a repeat of what happened to Lorna with Malice. Everything enticing about the concept will be treated as "not really Lorna," and there would be no lessons learned. Just a fluke moment before Marvel slots her back into Havok's clingy girlfriend territory to compensate for their discomfort at having given Lorna a prominent spotlight for once in 52 years.

Another option would be changing team, it may do her some good. I think she may be a part of the new X-men team post Gala but even if that´s not the case, a change of scenario would do her some good. The problem is that right now most teams are already merged but I think they will shake things up a little after the Gala is done, so lest hope she ends on a different team.

Frankly, here's my thoughts. If Lorna's on the X-Men team, then I don't mind her staying on X-Factor. Assuming decent treatment more in the vein of its most recent issue. As I said during voting, Lorna being on both books could help X-Factor without the current problem of her being thrown under the bus in the process.

If she's not on the X-Men team, and she isn't getting something equally good or better (e.g. leading a different team, a solo book, etc), then she's better off not even being on X-Factor at all. All staying on it does to her at that point is drag her down, and she's had too many decades of getting thrown under buses and exploited to benefit everyone that isn't her.

[Lucyinthesky]

Joel Furtado

[jmc247]

Amazon has dropped the price of Avengers Disassembled to 2.99 on Kindle and they are offering it free for those with Amazon Prime.



By Ryan C.

Here is a open poll for those interested to list the best storylines for each member of the family and extended family.

Quicksilver:

Magneto:

Polaris:

Scarlet Witch:

Speed:

Wiccan:

Luna:

Crystal: