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  1. #1711
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    Btw. I still don't get why they can write Ghostmaker as competent Anti-Hero in Batman, but can't do the same with Jason.

  2. #1712
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    He was running around beating people up, then he killed Taylor's dad and spent an entire issue boring on his hideout thinking about how badly he had messed up. Bruce is the one that procures a sample f Cheer, analyzes it, and makes the connection with Crane's toxins. He then goes with Jason and tries to speak with him but Jason once again lashes out and is until Taylor gets involved that they stop and agree to work together. Bruce then shares the results of his analysis with Jason who only points out the obvious connection with Gotham U. They go there and interrogate one of the researchers, but they can't get useful information from her, this infuriates Jason again and he decides Bruce's methods don't work and that he will do things his way. He beats another guy up who tells him the address of one stash of Cheer, which ends up being an ambush by Freeze who then captures him. Jason admits he's filed and sent his location to Oracle so she can contact Bruce. Bruce saves Jason but gets captured in the process and is only then that Jason finally decides to follow Bruce's methods and what lets him find Cheer's base.

    Overall, Jason is written like a dumbass that only is able to help Bruce because Bruce already did the legwork for him.

    As for TFZ, he did such a great investigation that he failed to find the whole thing was an undercover FBI operation and he refused to hear Bruce when he tried to warn him, leading to his capture and posterior drafting into the TFZ program. Again, not a great show of Jason's detective skills.
    The thing is, I think it was clear that there was not such FBI investigation. The guy just wanted to catch Jason for his organization, the same one that's stealing the bodies. For me, it's clear that it was implied that it all was a cover for the current Task Force Z, FBI agent included. And Bruce was warning Jason about it all being fishy and dangerous enough because there was, and is, something dirty, gov santioned operation going on and Bruce can't help Jason if he falls then in their hands. Whatever those hands are.

    You read Cheer one way, with a mindset, and I read it with a different one. It's been clear before, and it still is now. And I'm discussing this with you in two places at the same time and I know I'm not invested enough in dragging it any more. So I'll stop here. I think we've to agree to disagree in this stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Still it felt kind of unbalanced.

    I mean other writers have done worse, but in a team up like that I feel you should highlight at leat something cool about the guest character, and have him at least contribute something that ideally the main character can't do.

    The whole thing comes of a little bit like Dick needing to help Jason because he has no idea how to solve this case on his own. Compare that with the appearances of Tim and Barbara on this book, they are there because Dick needed their help.
    To be honest, I feel the same. But it could have been so much, much, much worse, that I'm going to take what I can get here. It was enjoyable, and that's it.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 11-30-2021 at 03:02 PM.
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  3. #1713
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    Btw. what also annoyed my about the Nightwing Annual is that while Preston Payne is a Clayface, his powerset is complelty differnt from the standard version.
    He is not able to shape change and even if he could he is would be way to insane to actually execute a plan like that.

  4. #1714
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Btw. what also annoyed my about the Nightwing Annual is that while Preston Payne is a Clayface, his powerset is complelty differnt from the standard version.
    He is not able to shape change and even if he could he is would be way to insane to actually execute a plan like that.
    Should've just brought Matt Hagen back.

  5. #1715
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    I read the Nighwing annual already. It was ok. Not much subtle writing there, but I don't think it needs to be. It's better than what I've read of Taylor in Jason before, for sure. Taylor's Jason is a brawler, an acrobatic brawler, but he's definitely not the one doing detective work in this story. Or leading the investigation, or even being analytical and strategical. But alas, this is to be expected, and I guess it's fair: it's Dicks book after all. I wish it was like in Seeley's short story for Gotham Nights where they shared the investigation, but, well... Again, it's fair: it's Dicks book \o/. He leads and does most of the shinny work.

    I enjoyed this read. I hold small "but"s, like revisiting again the "Jason was a violent kid because of his personal trauma", but it is again a thing that's going to be repeated now and them because that's one of his usual themes for most writers. If it wasn't really a problem for me in Cheer with Zdarsky, isn't do here either. Also, I liked how Taylor acknowledged that, for all the blame they put on Jason being brutal with his weapons, it's not like any of them are soft either. Those sticks hit hard, same as any or Bruce punches, or Damian's swords, or Tim's staff.. It was a nice nod.

    At the moment, this is third place for me on the scale of "What writer I'm enjoying more writing Jason". A bit above Seeley's Robins, but below Rosenberg's and Williamson's work.
    Comic Damian's weapon of choice aren't swords. He uses his fists or robinarangs.

    However that is a valid point. all the bat's use brutal, potentially lethal weapons/methods.
    Last edited by Fergus; 11-30-2021 at 03:22 PM.

  6. #1716
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Comic Damian's weapon of choice aren't swords. He uses his fists or robinarangs.
    They were, for a while as far as I recall. Duly noted that it's not the case anymore.
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  7. #1717
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    They were, for a while as far as I recall. Duly noted that it's not the case anymore.
    No they weren't. Unless you are talking about Damian before he joined the Bat family. Once he joined the family his signature weapons have been the Batarangs or his hands.

    Damian very very rarely in comics uses swords. Outside media that lean into his heir to the Demon heritage have him use a katana. That must be what's given you that perception. Comic Damian uses swords as much as Jason uses a bo or blades.

  8. #1718
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    No they weren't. Unless you are talking about Damian before he joined the Bat family. Once he joined the family his signature weapons have been the Batarangs or his hands.

    Damian very very rarely in comics uses swords. Outside media that lean into his heir to the Demon heritage have him use a katana. That must be what's given you that perception. Comic Damian uses swords as much as Jason uses a bo or blades.
    No, I'm talking about around Tomasi's era in Batman and Robin, during New 52. I can remember him with a sword back then. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I got used to him with a sword from those days. And judging by the fanfics I often read that get a lot of content from then, it's a common conception, mistaken or not. You guys are the hardcore (ok, not the word I mean... In Depth fans? Damn, I suck at English) Damian fans, so I'll trust your word on it, but I remember him like that back then. Maybe it was because covers, or Damian in other media. Hmmm... Could be the case.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 11-30-2021 at 05:30 PM.
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  9. #1719
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    As an aside, I was finally linked to concrete evidence about WB's new stance on guns

    https://www.toyfarce.com/news/dcwarn...s-toys-protest
    Oh, that's why the Gotham Knights Red hood figure doesn't come with guns? So weird!
    DC: Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Yara Flor, Titans | Marvel: Ben Reilly, Laura Kinney, Gabby Kinney

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  10. #1720
    Astonishing Member RedBird's Avatar
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    This comic was all in all mainly meh, for Jason. This annual was basically filled to the brim with common grievances I have with Jason in current comics, without quite being the most egregious example of any. Like Aahz mentioned, the tendency for Jason to be all round useless in his appearances, whereas other guest characters often get to flex some sort of skill or get to be highlighted in some way, Jason just gets to be useless. Contributing nothing to the task at hand, and if anything simply being a burden on the hero.

    There's also more of Jason justifying using a crowbar, it's always obnoxious in comics when stupid outside decisions are then justified by stupid answers in the narrative.

    There's more misinterpretation of Jason's stance as Red Hood, which was about a loss of faith in the system to keep criminals from repeating their crimes (and even cheating the system), leading to more and more victims, not just Jason not being convinced that prison time was a satisfyingly harsh enough punishment for bad guys. As Red Hood, it wasn't about specifically seeing criminals suffer, it was about searching for a more permanent solution (typically death sentences) to decrease the number of victims, for this to be watered down into a 'huh I guess seeing bad guys go to prison is rewarding enough' moment, is insulting and a ridiculous attempt at 'insight'.

    There's more of 'bad robin' Jason, although, I give it slightly more credit here for not just ending the moment with Dick reprimanding Jason and shaking his head, but actually delving a little into Jason's reasoning and sympathising with the character, which is more than he usually gets.

    This felt more in line with BWFAs writing than anything, basic, with surface level understandings of characters, which is absolutely fine for light hearted webtoons, but knowing that THIS is the new standard for Jason in main continuity is, tiring. Though I suppose, this could have been worse, and in general at least this comic can still be enjoyed as a simple read, just don't think too hard about any of the characterisation, cause you know DC sure don't, so why should you waste the energy.
    Last edited by RedBird; 11-30-2021 at 11:32 PM.

  11. #1721
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Comic Damian's weapon of choice aren't swords. He uses his fists or robinarangs.
    "robinarangs" and the equivalents of the other Batfamily members are also not exactly harmless weapons.

  12. #1722
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    This felt more in line with BWFAs writing than anything, basic, with surface level understandings of characters, which is absolutely fine for light hearted webtoons, but knowing that THIS is the new standard for Jason in main continuity is, tiring. Though I suppose, this could have been worse, and in general at least this comic can still be enjoyed as a simple read, just don't think too hard about any of the characterisation, cause you know DC sure don't, so why should you waste the energy.
    This is generally my main complain with anything Taylor writes. That, his surface dealing of not-really subtle messages, and that he doesn't plot whole stories all that well. He's a fun read, and usually knows the characters to some degree even if it's not in depth. But... I get why people say he feels fanfictioney. He's alright, but I don't feel he's very good writing certain types of stories and genres.

    I bet he's great once he starts writing his own characters withing his own fictional universes. He feels like he could be one of those writers who shine doing creator owned works, to be honest.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 11-30-2021 at 11:47 PM.
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  13. #1723
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    No, I'm talking about around Tomasi's era in Batman and Robin, during New 52. I can remember him with a sword back then. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I got used to him with a sword from those days. And judging by the fanfics I often read that get a lot of content from then, it's a common conception, mistaken or not. You guys are the hardcore (ok, not the word I mean... In Depth fans? Damn, I suck at English) Damian fans, so I'll trust your word on it, but I remember him like that back then. Maybe it was because covers, or Damian in other media. Hmmm... Could be the case.
    It's ok, my English isn't so good either. Yes those click bait covers did contribute and fan fics also link him with the sword. I guess it due to people associating Ninja's and LOA with swords and such. So Damian is always given a sword in fan works despite him rarely ever using em.

    As a fan who is into Jason big time the B&R issue where Damian ambushes Jason with a sword and crowbar under the pillow likely help that perception of Damian=sword stick in your mind.

  14. #1724
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    It's ok, my English isn't so good either. Yes those click bait covers did contribute and fan fics also link him with the sword. I guess it due to people associating Ninja's and LOA with swords and such. So Damian is always given a sword in fan works despite him rarely ever using em.

    As a fan who is into Jason big time the B&R issue where Damian ambushes Jason with a sword and crowbar under the pillow likely help that perception of Damian=sword stick in your mind.
    Ah, yeah, that probably helped as well.
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  15. #1725
    Bajuszbetyár The Invincible Beawulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    This is generally my main complain with anything Taylor writes. That, his surface dealing of not-really subtle messages, and that he doesn't plot whole stories all that well. He's a fun read, and usually knows the characters to some degree even if it's not in depth. But... I get why people say he feels fanfictioney. He's alright, but I don't feel he's very good writing certain types of stories and genres.

    I bet he's great once he starts writing his own characters withing his own fictional universes. He feels like he could be one of those writers who shine doing creator owned works, to be honest.
    So I'm not the only one thinking of Taylor as a fanfiction writer.



    btw I'm interested in Jason Todd's character, but I don't know much about him - could you recommend good comic book stories with him?
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