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  1. #1726
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Invincible Beawulf View Post
    So I'm not the only one thinking of Taylor as a fanfiction writer.



    btw I'm interested in Jason Todd's character, but I don't know much about him - could you recommend good comic book stories with him?
    Under the Red Hood is always good (though the movie cuts out a lot of basically filler stuff, and Jenson Ackles nails the role). Outlaws Rebirth was really good, dipped off a little in the middle, but picked back up. And Future State Gotham has been enjoyable. And Batman: Wayne Family Adventures is basically fanfiction given credibility, but its a fun ride.

  2. #1727
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Invincible Beawulf View Post
    So I'm not the only one thinking of Taylor as a fanfiction writer.
    btw I'm interested in Jason Todd's character, but I don't know much about him - could you recommend good comic book stories with him?
    Watch the Under The Red Hood animated film from 2011, is the definitive telling of his resurrection.
    The two volumes of Red Hood & The Outlaws, and Red Hood Arsenal. That's pretty much it.

  3. #1728
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Invincible Beawulf View Post
    So I'm not the only one thinking of Taylor as a fanfiction writer.



    btw I'm interested in Jason Todd's character, but I don't know much about him - could you recommend good comic book stories with him?
    You have a starting short list in the second post of this thread*. But let's see. My take on it.

    For his Robin days:
    - You can give a try to his pre-crisis time, I guess. It's around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths that he showed up briefly in New Teen Titans and the Superman Annual. Has been referenced quit a lot in the comics, especially lately.
    - Second Chances.
    - Batman The Cult.
    - A Death in the Family.

    Post dead.
    - Batman: Under the Hood
    - Red Hood: Lost Days
    - New 52 Red Hood and the Outlaws (2011).
    - Rebirth Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016)
    - Batman: Urban Legends: Cheer (6 issues)

    Other stuff that may be interesting:
    - Countdown to Final Crisis.
    - Red Hood / Arsenal
    - Batman Incorporated vol. 2
    - Batman and Robin Eternal.
    - Batman: the 3 Jokers

    Stuff I don't think it's really good on Jason but people keep referring to:
    - Batman and Robin (Dick as Batman)

    Current books and ongoing stories:
    - Future State: Gotham (and Future State The Dark Detective issues 1 and 3. I think it was these two.). An alternate future.
    - Task Force Z (and the prelude Road to Task Force Z in the backup stories of Detective Comics 1042 to 4045 if I recall correctly). Current DC universe.
    - Suicide Squad: Get Joker. Alternate continuity, 3 Jokers adjacent. But maybe, also main DCU adjacent. We will see.
    - Titans United. Alternate universe. It has a previous short story arc of two or three issues.
    - Wayne Family. It's a webtoon that's pretty much fanfiction, but official. It's fun and lighthearted.

    Alternate universes:
    - Arkham Origins. Arkham videogames universe.
    - Bombshells unlimited. I think it was unlimited? Has a Kid Jason in a relatively prominent role for the last half.
    - Mother Panic. Same. Alternate universe in an alternate timeline, but has Jason in some relatively prominent role, I guess.
    - Batman: White Knight and Curse of the White Knight, The Murphyverse has Jason in there. It's pretty secondary as far as time in the panels, but he's a plot point.
    - DCeased. Jason is there, sometimes, in some spin offs.

    Other stuff:
    - Gotham Nights, an anthology from last year, has a few stories with Jason that were pretty enjoyable.
    - I think Gotham Knights, another older anthology, has that story with Jason as Robin and Babs as Batgirl that people usually refer to. It's kind of a big retcon with out Jason is portrayed, but it's enjoyable I guess.
    - I remember, I think, it was a Deathman's annual, with Jason as a Ghost helping Bruce.
    - That short storyline with Bruce, Kara, Clark and Jason circa 2014. It crossed two books, I think. It's where the shipping of Kara and Jason comes from.
    - The Robin 80th anniversary has a short, nice story for Jason.

    Things to run from:
    - Battle for the Cowl.
    - Nightwing: Brothers in blood.


    I think that's all I can think about right now.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2021 at 11:53 AM.
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  4. #1729
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    You have a starting short list in the second post of this tread. But let's see. My take on it.

    For his Robin days:
    - You can give a try to his pre-crisis time, I guess. It's around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths that he showed up briefly in New Teen Titans and the Superman Annual. Has been referenced quit a lot in the comics, especially lately.
    - Second Chances.
    - Batman The Cult.
    - A Death in the Family.

    Post dead.
    - Batman: Under the Hood
    - Red Hood: Lost Days
    - New 52 Red Hood and the Outlaws (2011).
    - Rebirth Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016)
    - Batman: Urban Legends: Cheer (6 issues)

    Other stuff that may be interesting:
    - Countdown to Final Crisis.
    - Red Hood / Arsenal
    - Batman Incorporated vol. 2
    - Batman and Robin Eternal.
    - Batman: the 3 Jokers

    Stuff I don't think it's really good on Jason but people keep referring to:
    - Batman and Robin (Dick as Batman)

    Current books and ongoing stories:
    - Future State: Gotham (and Future State The Dark Detective issues 1 and 3. I think it was these two.). An alternate future.
    - Task Force Z (and the prelude Road to Task Force Z in the backup stories of Detective Comics 1042 to 4045 if I recall correctly). Current DC universe.
    - Suicide Squad: Get Joker. Alternate continuity, 3 Jokers adjacent. But maybe, also main DCU adjacent. We will see.
    - Titans United. Alternate universe. It has a previous short story arc of two or three issues.
    - Wayne Family. It's a webtoon that's pretty much fanfiction, but official. It's fun and lighthearted.

    Alternate universes:
    - Arkham Origins. Arkham videogames universe.
    - Bombshells unlimited. I think it was unlimited? Has a Kid Jason in a relatively prominent role for the last half.
    - Mother Panic. Same. Alternate universe in an alternate timeline, but has Jason in some relatively prominent role, I guess.
    - Batman: White Knight and Curse of the White Knight, The Murphyverse has Jason in there. It's pretty secondary as far as time in the panels, but he's a plot point.
    - DCeased. Jason is there, sometimes, in some spin offs.

    Other stuff:
    - Gotham Nights, an anthology from last year, has a few stories with Jason that were pretty enjoyable.
    - I think Gotham Knights, another older anthology, has that story with Jason as Robin and Babs as Batgirl that people usually refer to. It's kind of a big retcon with out Jason is portrayed, but it's enjoyable I guess.
    - I remember, I think, it was a Deathman's annual, with Jason as a Ghost helping Bruce.
    - That short storyline with Bruce, Kara, Clark and Jason circa 2014. It crossed two books, I think. It's where the shipping of Kara and Jason comes from.
    - The Robin 80th anniversary has a short, nice story for Jason.

    Things to run from:
    - Battle for the Cowl.
    - Nightwing: Brothers in blood.


    I think that's all I can think about right now.
    The infamous tentacle monster jason arc! That was a shit show.

  5. #1730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    You have a starting short list in the second post of this thread*. But let's see. My take on it.

    For his Robin days:
    - You can give a try to his pre-crisis time, I guess. It's around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths that he showed up briefly in New Teen Titans and the Superman Annual. Has been referenced quit a lot in the comics, especially lately.
    - Second Chances.
    - Batman The Cult.
    - A Death in the Family.

    Post dead.
    - Batman: Under the Hood
    - Red Hood: Lost Days
    - New 52 Red Hood and the Outlaws (2011).
    - Rebirth Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016)
    - Batman: Urban Legends: Cheer (6 issues)

    Other stuff that may be interesting:
    - Countdown to Final Crisis.
    - Red Hood / Arsenal
    - Batman Incorporated vol. 2
    - Batman and Robin Eternal.
    - Batman: the 3 Jokers

    Stuff I don't think it's really good on Jason but people keep referring to:
    - Batman and Robin (Dick as Batman)

    Current books and ongoing stories:
    - Future State: Gotham (and Future State The Dark Detective issues 1 and 3. I think it was these two.). An alternate future.
    - Task Force Z (and the prelude Road to Task Force Z in the backup stories of Detective Comics 1042 to 4045 if I recall correctly). Current DC universe.
    - Suicide Squad: Get Joker. Alternate continuity, 3 Jokers adjacent. But maybe, also main DCU adjacent. We will see.
    - Titans United. Alternate universe. It has a previous short story arc of two or three issues.
    - Wayne Family. It's a webtoon that's pretty much fanfiction, but official. It's fun and lighthearted.

    Alternate universes:
    - Arkham Origins. Arkham videogames universe.
    - Bombshells unlimited. I think it was unlimited? Has a Kid Jason in a relatively prominent role for the last half.
    - Mother Panic. Same. Alternate universe in an alternate timeline, but has Jason in some relatively prominent role, I guess.
    - Batman: White Knight and Curse of the White Knight, The Murphyverse has Jason in there. It's pretty secondary as far as time in the panels, but he's a plot point.
    - DCeased. Jason is there, sometimes, in some spin offs.

    Other stuff:
    - Gotham Nights, an anthology from last year, has a few stories with Jason that were pretty enjoyable.
    - I think Gotham Knights, another older anthology, has that story with Jason as Robin and Babs as Batgirl that people usually refer to. It's kind of a big retcon with out Jason is portrayed, but it's enjoyable I guess.
    - I remember, I think, it was a Deathman's annual, with Jason as a Ghost helping Bruce.
    - That short storyline with Bruce, Kara, Clark and Jason circa 2014. It crossed two books, I think. It's where the shipping of Kara and Jason comes from.
    - The Robin 80th anniversary has a short, nice story for Jason.

    Things to run from:
    - Battle for the Cowl.
    - Nightwing: Brothers in blood.


    I think that's all I can think about right now.
    To date that is still the biggest and most important story To feature Nightwing and Jason. If only because Bruce is dead so he doesn't hog the spotlight.

  6. #1731
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    To date that is still the biggest and most important story To feature Nightwing and Jason. If only because Bruce is dead so he doesn't hog the spotlight.
    It's still pretty awful for almost all the characters in there, though. Even Dick. Because I think Dick is pretty OOC in that story too.
    And hasn't have been referred in comics the last 10 years, either.
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  7. #1732
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Pre-Crisis Jason, first time donning the costume is collected in Joker: His Greatest Jokes but it's only 2 issues.
    His later time as Robin is in Batman The Dark Knight Detective Vol. 1 (some issues overlap with Legends of The Dark Knight by Alan Davis but Dark Knight Detective has Jason appearances other than the ones drawn by Davis)
    His arc in Teen Titans is in The New Teen Titans Vol. 11
    The Superman Annual is in Superman Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow

  8. #1733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    It's still pretty awful for almost all the characters in there, though. Even Dick. Because I think Dick is pretty OOC in that story too.
    And hasn't have been referred in comics the last 10 years, either.
    That's because they dont like mentioning psycho Jason, whenever Damian says why is he here, its honestly for good reason when you look back.
    Dicks time as batman and Bruce dying has been refrenced many times over the years

    Yeah its a mess but I like the main beats and I do like the concept of it all
    the giant splash page looks great.

    I always wanted a 2 parter animated movie on it that could tidy it up

  9. #1734
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    That's because they dont like mentioning psycho Jason, whenever Damian says why is he here, its honestly for good reason when you look back.
    Dicks time as batman and Bruce dying has been refrenced many times over the years

    Yeah its a mess but I like the main beats and I do like the concept of it all
    the giant splash page looks great.

    I always wanted a 2 parter animated movie on it that could tidy it up
    Jason being an enemy to the batfam has been referred before, though. It's a plot point that stands in Jason's backstory both during New 52 and Rebirth, and it's not just because of the Under the Hood storyline. He was sent to Arkham because of it. Some parts have dissapeared from canon to never show up again, like BftC and that Teen Titans issue with Jason attacking Tim (Life and Death, says the wiki, was the name of the issue). But Jason still attacked Tim in Hush, if I recall, and also probably some other undetermined time. We know he didn't meet Professor Pyg in the New52/Rebirth continuity, because it was also mentioned he didn't met Jason before in Tec, I think it was.

    Well, who knows what's canon anymore, to be honest. But my point is, it's not a good story, it's not referred in comics anymore, and it's not a good idea either, because I can't see myself Jason fighting anyone for Bruce's legacy. It's so out of character for him, as it is for Dick to doubt himself or/and be purposeful cruel to his family, strangled and unhinged or not.

    Think of it this way: would you've enjoyed it if it were a resentful and jealous Dick violently fighting Jason when Jason took over the mantle of Robin? I know I wouldn't*, and that without even entering the murdering territory.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2021 at 02:04 PM.
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  10. #1735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Jason being an enemy to the batfam has been referred before, though. It's a plot point that stands in Jason's backstory both during New 52 and Rebirth, and it's not just because of the Under the Hood storyline. He was sent to Arkham because of it. Some parts have dissapeared from canon to never show up again, like BftC and that Teen Titans issue with Jason attacking Tim (Life and Death, says the wiki, was the name of the issue). But Jason still attacked Tim in Hush, if I recall, and also probably some other undetermined time. We know he didn't meet Professor Pyg in the New52/Rebirth continuity, because it was also mentioned he didn't met Jason before in Tec, I think it was.

    Well, who knows what's canon anymore, to be honest. But my point is, it's not a good story, it's not referred in comics anymore, and it's not a good idea either, because I can't see myself Jason fighting anyone for Bruce's legacy. It's so out of character for him, as it is for Dick to doubt himself or/and be purposeful cruel to his family, strangled and unhinged or not.

    Think of it this way: would you've enjoyed it if it were a resentful and jealous Dick violently fighting Jason when Jason took over the mantle of Robin? I know I wouldn't.
    It was a good concept, it was just messy
    I don't belive it should be forgotten, nor should Jason's criminal past after resurrections
    Hes the blueprint, that Harley Quinn and soon Ivy are following for the redemption angle

  11. #1736
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    It was a good concept, it was just messy
    I don't belive it should be forgotten, nor should Jason's criminal past after resurrections
    Hes the blueprint, that Harley Quinn and soon Ivy are following for the redemption angle
    I disagree. It's not a good concept. When you need to put several characters into OOC characterization for it to work, it's not. Not for me.
    And Jason's past as a criminal hasn't been erased. Him fighting the fam, being antagonistic to them still happened and it's still referred. Heck, it's what happened in the last Nightwing annual when Babs and Dick were looking at the video: they were thinking about Jason's past.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2021 at 02:12 PM.
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  12. #1737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    I disagree. It's not a good concept. When you need to put several characters into OOC characterization for it to work, it's not. Not for me.
    And Jason's past as a criminal hasn't been erased. Him fighting the fam, being antagonistic to them still happened and it's still referred. Heck, it's what happened in the last Nightwing annual when Babs and Dick were looking at the video: they were thinking about Jason's past.
    It did not need to do that, I don't know why they did that.

    For most of Dick career, being Batman when he got older seemed like his next step. As he got older he didnt want that, and went his own way. Then the moment comes and he is wrestling with the choice. It more then being responsible for just gotham, young Damian is now without his father and Dick has to choose to standby for him as well.

    At the Jason was already chracterized as insane and with a jealousy and hatred for Dick. He hates him for being everything jason is not and can't be. It made sense at the time how he acted.

    Tim, cansee Dick hesitating and says Gotham needs a batman and if you don't I will. Similar to how he became robin.



    Damian, not yet robin is the one acting the most out of charcter. I dont even recognize him.

    The background stuff is what really muddles the issue. Gotham is in chaos, and every villain you can think of is running a amok. In the chaos every bat ally and bat adjacent (without flying brick powers) I wish the writer gave the chaos more organization in a sense. The citys at war and its issue but we dont know why. Saying its just becasue batman's gone makes no sense.

    The only one truly out of character at the time was Damian. The story is bad and needs a rewrite and update.
    You probably don't like it because as a Jason fan this was a really ugly period for him.

  13. #1738
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    It did not need to do that, I don't know why they did that.

    For most of Dick career, being Batman when he got older seemed like his next step. As he got older he didnt want that, and went his own way. Then the moment comes and he is wrestling with the choice. It more then being responsible for just gotham, young Damian is now without his father and Dick has to choose to standby for him as well.

    At the Jason was already chracterized as insane and with a jealousy and hatred for Dick. He hates him for being everything jason is not and can't be. It made sense at the time how he acted.

    Tim, cansee Dick hesitating and says Gotham needs a batman and if you don't I will. Similar to how he became robin.



    Damian, not yet robin is the one acting the most out of charcter. I dont even recognize him.

    The background stuff is what really muddles the issue. Gotham is in chaos, and every villain you can think of is running a amok. In the chaos every bat ally and bat adjacent (without flying brick powers) I wish the writer gave the chaos more organization in a sense. The citys at war and its issue but we dont know why. Saying its just becasue batman's gone makes no sense.

    The only one truly out of character at the time was Damian. The story is bad and needs a rewrite and update.
    You probably don't like it because as a Jason fan this was a really ugly period for him.
    This is untrue.
    Jason respected Dick. And he's never been* shown as insane until that moment (unless you count* Brothers in Blood, another awful story for every character in). He was shown psychotic, which is not the same as insane, and antagonistic towards Dick. But he wasn't notably jealous, he didn't hate Dick and he doesn't even hate Dick in this story, funny enough. I just went through a reread a few minutes ago just because apparently my ongoing cold hasn't gave me grieving enough.

    And Dick is pretty OOC until issue 3. He* expends two issues brooding around, doubting himself, doing nothing to help the city in its chaos. Tim and the birds are the ones dealing with it.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2021 at 06:28 PM.
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  14. #1739
    Astonishing Member RedBird's Avatar
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    A comic that is a 'good concept' should not be forgotten? There are hundreds, nay thousands of comics that are 'good concepts', that's not enough to carry a book to the good graces of fans. Actual good comics do that.

    And considering that BFTC was a wholly deliberate character assassination piece for Jason from the author, and a story that was in some way or another bizarrely OOC for almost all the main characters involved. Yeah, I think it would make absolute sense for fans to not have a positive opinion on the book, fans don't tend to view stories that are badly written, OOC, and of all things set up a hit pieces for characters to ruin their reputation, as something 'good'.

    Deliberate character assassination tends to sour things and there's a reason fans and even sometimes comic creators tend to forget, ignore this and move on, it doesn't take much to realise why no one is singing the praises of Heroes in Crisis as a story that finally tackled Wally's trauma.
    Last edited by RedBird; 12-01-2021 at 06:12 PM.

  15. #1740
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    You can skip Battle for The Cowl and still get the same story because I went straight to Long Shadows, which is supposed to be set after Cowl, and they basically do the same plot point. Dick is grieving, Dick is in doubt, before deciding to be Batman and drag/train Damian with him, and he fought an insane person in a Bat costume, this time it's Two-Face.

    No extraneous bit, nobody's out of character, Dick only doubt for one issue which began with the Justice League giving him the cowl. By the end of the issue, he's become Batman.

    Oh, and Long Shadows is written by Winnick, which, even if Jason's not showing up at all in this arc, since he wrote Under The Red Hood and Lost Days, it's an easy choice which cowl inheritance story that's more consistent with everyone's characterization.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 12-01-2021 at 04:38 PM.

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