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  1. #31
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    I can't say I'm too worried about the potential writer. I spent the better part of a decade straight-up disliking Jason's stories and following them by pure inertia and love for the character (quite enjoyed the first few Rebirth arcs and spare issues after that, though). I don't think it can get too much worse for me.

    Not knowing is the worst (it'll be like that for a while), but at least we have to look forward to what will probably be a quality story starting March. Other characters have it waaaaay worse.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    The choices editorial has made for the entire line in the last few years has got me extremely jaded and generally waiting for the worse.

    As an aside I just don't understand the feeling of wanting Jason to be entirely a street-level character since that is the easiest way to make him superfluous to the Batman-mythos since the expanded cast is already filled to the brim with street-level vigilantes.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I think it fits his character the best.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
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  4. #34
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    In my case it's because I feel nothing good has come out of his magical connections so far. I find the whole All Caste vs the Untitled thing incredibly boring and uninteresting, even if I don't dislike the concept. It just... I don't know, it's absolutely nothing to me.

    So I guess it all comes down to how it's done: both mystical (he's come back from the dead, after all) and street-level stories can suit him. But I generally have a preference towards street-level characters and I really don't think other Gothamites having that covered is relevant or should automatically mean magical and space adventures for RH.

    I also find Jason's backstory and general M.O. to mix really well with more mundane, crime-related stories. My favourite rendition of him is in UtRH for a reason (also helped by its quality as a comic and movie). Not that I want Jason to be that character anymore (fuck off with Batfamily conflicts and Joker stuff already), but his current persona could still give great stories involving gangsters and criminal supervillains without resorting to ancient wars with high stakes, hell, chosen one treatment and magical swords.
    Last edited by CorDaytona; 01-03-2021 at 04:46 PM.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    The choices editorial has made for the entire line in the last few years has got me extremely jaded and generally waiting for the worse.

    As an aside I just don't understand the feeling of wanting Jason to be entirely a street-level character since that is the easiest way to make him superfluous to the Batman-mythos since the expanded cast is already filled to the brim with street-level vigilantes.
    It goes hand in hand with his first definitive image in UTRH. When All-Caste first appear, I was like... where is this coming from? Wasn't he supposed to use guns? I kinda like it because it's so anime and different but I also feel it came from nowhere, even if there's magic spa in Batman lore, I often forget it because it's only used in Ra's story and Ra's stories aren't as often as Joker and the Arkham folks.

    I think it's the same idea why people don't like Batman use Bat-mech or other Tony Stark level technology, he's supposed to be more dark knight detective than, well, Tony Stark. Different image.

    In the case of Duke, no metas in Gotham and all that.

    Also, I think I'm not thinking of him branching out to be different yet because just having a gun for me is already different. His ideology, as presented in UTRH, is already different, so I don't feel the need to add anything mystical.

    Batwoman on the other hand, became defined by fighting supernatural and I'm okay with that because otherwise she's just gonna be one of the Nightwings, Robins, Batgirls and Huntress.

    Duke I also don't mind being meta even if I want everyone to be street level because he's a newer character and we're really running out of niche.

    TLDR: When Red Hood first appear he already has his niche, so I don't need to add more to that. The other characters that come later like Kate and Duke need that supernatural angle because I'm running out of niche.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 01-03-2021 at 06:46 PM.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorDaytona View Post
    In my case it's because I feel nothing good has come out of his magical connections so far. I find the whole All Caste vs the Untitled thing incredibly boring and uninteresting, even if I don't dislike the concept. It just... I don't know, it's absolutely nothing to me.

    So I guess it all comes down to how it's done: both mystical (he's come back from the dead, after all) and street-level stories can suit him. But I generally have a preference towards street-level characters and I really don't think other Gothamites having that covered is relevant or should automatically mean magical and space adventures for RH.

    I also find Jason's backstory and general M.O. to mix really well with more mundane, crime-related stories. My favourite rendition of him is in UtRH for a reason (also helped by its quality as a comic and movie). Not that I want Jason to be that character anymore (fuck off with Batfamily conflicts and Joker stuff already), but his current persona could still give great stories involving gangsters and criminal supervillains without resorting to ancient wars with high stakes, hell, chosen one treatment and magical swords.
    But what would make worthwhile to use Jason instead of Kate, Dick, Selina, Duke, Damian, Tim or even Clown Hunter at this point?

    Unless writers go explicitly for the conflicting points of views with Bruce, there's really nothing that Jason can bring to the table that other junior bats don't. Just look at Martinbrough story, the one thing that justified Jason's presence was his relationship with Croc and that only happened because of the Outlaws as whole.

    And isn't like a magical background is completely alien to Bruce given the strong connections to Nanda Parbat and other mystical beings/places that writers have added to Bruce's story over the decades. Why is such a controversial thing when it comes to Jason? Jason was mostly a blank slate anyways so giving him new mentors was a good way of expanding his character.

    Oh, and the whole chosen one angle and the wildest magic related ideas that plagued the Outlaws? You can thank Tynion for that. He was the who pushed those ideas during his tenure as writer for the series. When Lobdell returned to the series he made a conscious attempt to distance himself and the series as much as he could from Tynion's ideas since he loathed what Tynion did with them. It was only after a couple of years passed that he started to salvage come concepts and plot points from it and it only really became prominent again until the final arcs of his run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    TLDR: When Red Hood first appear he already has his niche, so I don't need to add more to that. The other characters that come later like Kate and Duke need that supernatural angle because I'm running out of niche.
    But we go back to the same problem, that niche is already swamped with characters (and was already occupied by other as soon as UtRH ended and editorial struggled to do something with Jason).

    Also, focusing only in elements from a popular storyline is how Bane ended just rehashing Knightfall ad nauseum. It simply limits the narrative possibilities a character can have.
    Last edited by Dark_Tzitzimine; 01-03-2021 at 06:57 PM.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    And they should make the Punisher an astronaut.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    But we go back to the same problem, that niche is already swamped with characters (and was already occupied by other as soon as UtRH ended and editorial struggled to do something with Jason).

    Also, focusing only in elements from a popular storyline is how Bane ended just rehashing Knightfall ad nauseum. It simply limits the narrative possibilities a character can have.
    That's why I'm not opposed to it. If we're going fully into the realm of Jason moving on and no longer caring about these clowns in Gotham then sure, let him be a mystical monk... After the option of making him an international crime buster chased by mafia and FBI alike, because that appeals more to me. When I saw his interaction with Suzie Tsu, Black Mask and Penguin and the list of agencies having him as a most wanted, I want to see more of that story.

  9. #39
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Let's stuck every character in only a genre and setting. Sure that will work.

    It will not. For long run stories like these corporate comics, you need to put them into different situations and genres. It's why Batman has changed since the 30's. It's why Dick isn't stuck (or shouldn't) in Bludhaven or the Titans. It's why Spiderman has touched almost every setting and genre. Or the Captain. It's a necessity, and it's not only because they have had a long and rich history; look at Damian, he's relatively new, but he's already starting to suffer from a stranded repeating of genres, setting and themes. It's as simple as that people get tired of reading the same kind of story after a while. Variety is the key, and Jason can pull the mystic warrior card because of his history. He can also pull other cards, too, by the way. And you can also tell street level mystics and magic; look at the older Hellblazer comics, for example, even if those are more magic than mysticals. Or course, changes have to be and feel organic, a natural process or chain of happenings, wherein the character has to remain true to himself. Iron Fist is a character that mixes street level and mysticals and manages to feel himself. Even if he's more often mystical epic than a more, hum, small, humble, day-to-day one.

    In my opinion, at least.

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    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-03-2021 at 07:52 PM.
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  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    And they should make the Punisher an astronaut.
    Wouldn't be the weirdest thing that happened to him. Franken-monster, Angel of Death, Thunderbolt leader, being black (not nearly as awfull as it sounds, but still not great). Dude got range, Jason has a great role model
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  11. #41
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    I don’t see why he can’t (or shouldn’t) have one hand in magical/mystical stuff and the other in the criminal underworld stuff.

    A better executed version of Jason hunting down the Underlife would be a lot of fun to read. Just like the idea that Jason has a weapon that can (only) kill mystical beings at the expense of his soul could lay a foundation for a great story if somebody’s willing to explore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    And they should make the Punisher an astronaut.
    They kinda did when they made him cosmic ghost rider.

  12. #42
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    But what would make worthwhile to use Jason instead of Kate, Dick, Selina, Duke, Damian, Tim or even Clown Hunter at this point?

    Unless writers go explicitly for the conflicting points of views with Bruce, there's really nothing that Jason can bring to the table that other junior bats don't. Just look at Martinbrough story, the one thing that justified Jason's presence was his relationship with Croc and that only happened because of the Outlaws as whole.

    And isn't like a magical background is completely alien to Bruce given the strong connections to Nanda Parbat and other mystical beings/places that writers have added to Bruce's story over the decades. Why is such a controversial thing when it comes to Jason? Jason was mostly a blank slate anyways so giving him new mentors was a good way of expanding his character.

    Oh, and the whole chosen one angle and the wildest magic related ideas that plagued the Outlaws? You can thank Tynion for that. He was the who pushed those ideas during his tenure as writer for the series. When Lobdell returned to the series he made a conscious attempt to distance himself and the series as much as he could from Tynion's ideas since he loathed what Tynion did with them. It was only after a couple of years passed that he started to salvage come concepts and plot points from it and it only really became prominent again until the final arcs of his run.

    But we go back to the same problem, that niche is already swamped with characters (and was already occupied by other as soon as UtRH ended and editorial struggled to do something with Jason).

    Also, focusing only in elements from a popular storyline is how Bane ended just rehashing Knightfall ad nauseum. It simply limits the narrative possibilities a character can have.
    Again (and no offense meant), I don't know why I should personally care about Jason's approach potentially stepping into other characters' shoes. It's the writers' prerrogative to have interesting stories that fit the characters outside of superficial similarities or vibes (otherwise, none of the way too many Batfamily members should ever do anything remotely Batman-like, so why care about one more doing that).

    It's all about good stories at the end of the day, and also focus. A fixation that I want to be placed on more granular stories that still make use of those mystical elements, but not as end-be-all focus. Look at the beginning of Rebirth, which is, by far, the best part of Lobdell's run imo. It dealt with a Kryptonian clone and an Amazon, yet the plot wasn't a centuries-old war that feels tacked-on, underdeveloped and uninteresting. That's the kind of stuff I want. Hell, Jason's time as a teacher for superpowered kids is very cool as a concept, it just was bland and incredibly unfocused (which I guess we can also place some blame in DC's editorial).

    And I never said I don't like Jason's origin being all mystical (like, the thing I hate in his origin is the Willis retcon). I even said I like the concept of it! But the way it was written just gave little reason to care about the All Caste or Essence. They're very ancillary characters when they should be more, and their conflict, even when it actually takes considerable space pages-wise, I read by pure inertia, whereas Jason's dealings with Bizarro and Artemis got me big time, for instace.

    And yeah, I know, don't get me started on Tynion's time on RH lmao.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Let's stuck every character in only a genre and setting. Sure that will work.

    It will not. For long run stories like these corporate comics, you need to put them into different situations and genres. It's why Batman has changed since the 30's. It's why Dick isn't stuck (or shouldn't) in Bludhaven or the Titans. It's why Spiderman has touched almost every setting and genre. Or the Captain. It's a necessity, and it's not only because they have had a long and rich history; look at Damian, he's relatively new, but he's already starting to suffer from a stranded repeating of genres, setting and themes. It's as simple as that people get tired of reading the same kind of story after a while. Variety is the key, and Jason can pull the mystic warrior card because of his history. He can also pull other cards, too, by the way. And you can also tell street level mystics and magic; look at the older Hellblazer comics, for example, even if those are more magic than mysticals. Or course, changes have to be and feel organic, a natural process or chain of happenings, wherein the character has to remain true to himself. Iron Fist is a character that mixes street level and mysticals and manages to feel himself. Even if he's more often mystical epic than a more, hum, small, humble, day-to-day one.

    In my opinion, at least.

    (God lord, I hate posting from my pad)
    Nobody's saying that lmao (not me at least). In fact, one of the reasons I want some more mundane stories is because we've spent 9 years mostly dealing with more grandiose stuff either with the Tamaraneans, the All Caste or Artemis' storyline (this one I liked and it didn't overstayed its welcome though).

    I am advocating for a slight change of tone and having stories that are smaller in scale for a while (biggest stories don't necessarily mean better and when they're awkwardly executed, you grow really tired of them). That doesn't mean you can't have magical or mystical enemies in them. In fact, I'd find it boring if everything was your regular gangsters or criminals. Not even Batman deals with them only, there's a ton of fucked up characters in his gallery, after all. Like, I want Underbelly back, for instance.
    Last edited by CorDaytona; 01-04-2021 at 03:53 AM.

  13. #43
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Wouldn't be the weirdest thing that happened to him. Franken-monster, Angel of Death, Thunderbolt leader, being black (not nearly as awfull as it sounds, but still not great). Dude got range, Jason has a great role model
    Geez. Are we going to cross that land again? He's not the same kind of character than Jason.

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  14. #44
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorDaytona View Post
    Nobody's saying that lmao (not me at least). In fact, one of the reasons I want some more mundane stories is because we've spent 9 years mostly dealing with more grandiose stuff either with the Tamarans, the All Caste or Artemis' storyline (this one I liked and it didn't overstayed its welcome though).

    I am advocating for a slight change of tone and having stories that are smaller in scale for a while, which doesn't mean you can't have magical or mystical enemies in them. In fact, I'd find it boring if everything was your regular gangsters or criminals. Not even Batman deals with them only, there's a ton of fucked up characters in his gallery, after all. Like, I want Underbelly back, for instance.
    My words were regarding Restingvoice's mostly. My apologies, I should've quoted.

    Hmmm, I don't think the stuff with Artemis was really big, or the thing with the meta kids, or the last part with the all-caste stuff. They were isolated incidents that didn't affect more that a part of some country at worst. And contained to Jason's and Artemis stories. They weren't street level, but they weren't epic either. Just average superheroic stories you see in stuff like Blue Beetle or Shazam, for example. The part with Kori in the space did fall more into the epic cathegory (by being more apace opera-like). Or the part with Jason fighting Ra's in the original New 52 story.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-04-2021 at 03:57 AM.
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  15. #45
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Sorry for all this posting, I'm in a rush and can't post properly.

    You all know, what annoys me a little bit? That we're discussing what Jason's stories should be and shouldn't be about, what settings and villains he should or shouldn't face, like is a fundamental part that defines his character... but you rarely see that discussion brought to other character's thread. I don't mean you never see them, but it's more rare to be put in doubt.
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