Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2021

[CorDaytona]

Could B:UL portray Jason as the less moral of the two? Sure, we already had those previews that could hint at that.

But the quote on its own is harmless, its only problem being that it reiterates a tired storyline/character dynamic. It doesn't foretell that Jason's in the wrong(er) side in whatever conflict he's going to have with Bruce in B:UL (even if it will probably happen). In fact, I'd argue Alfred's words don't put Jason in a bad light, but the opposite: it's just reminiscent of Bruce's terrible mishandling of, well, most things.

In any case, I too liked Jason's voice there. I hated much of it during Lobdell's run, especially the inner monologues, which often tried too hard to be quirky and charming. Now, I guess they did bring a playful/goofy side to Jason that suits him (I would hate it if he was confined to be a dark, brooding character) and I appreciate that.

Come to think of it, appreciating some important stuff that was done for the character in Lobdell's run (like keeping him a hero o an anti-hero at best and not a villain) and disliking/straight-up hating a lot of the actual content sums up my overall feelings for his solo, I guess.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

The preview so far isn't as particularly egregious in Jason's characterization but is leaning way too far towards the angry take of Jason's character that is not only at odds with the way Lobdell wrote Jason but also at how Martinbrough did. Let's not forget that Jason was the voice of the reason between the two sisters and the story ended with Jason in a good place both with himself and with Bruce.

The constant nagging about "I do this because Bruce" it also feels heavy handed and as a cheap way to drive drama between the two of them, something that doesn't really fit the way Jason has been depicted aw being 100% team Bruce in what we've seen in Infinite Frontier so far. And if you assume that the one Jason's talking to in the end of Future State is Bruce, then this take is even weirder since they have a more cordial dynamic there.

I hope that Zdarsaky can turns things around but both the way they're emphasizing Jason's anger as the distinctive element of his personality and the fixation to have him under Bruce's shadow are a huge red flag for me.

I've had enough "Jason and Bruce fight because they do things differently," stories to last a lifetime.

[Zaresh]

The preview so far isn't as particularly egregious in Jason's characterization but is leaning way too far towards the angry take of Jason's character that is not only at odds with the way Lobdell wrote Jason but also at how Martinbrough did. Let's not forget that Jason was the voice of the reason between the two sisters and the story ended with Jason in a good place both with himself and with Bruce.

The constant nagging about "I do this because Bruce" it also feels heavy handed and as a cheap way to drive drama between the two of them, something that doesn't really fit the way Jason has been depicted aw being 100% team Bruce in what we've seen in Infinite Frontier so far. And if you assume that the one Jason's talking to in the end of Future State is Bruce, then this take is even weirder since they have a more cordial dynamic there.

I hope that Zdarsaky can turns things around but both the way they're emphasizing Jason's anger as the distinctive element of his personality and the fixation to have him under Bruce's shadow are a huge red flag for me.

I've had enough "Jason and Bruce fight because they do things differently," stories to last a lifetime.

Fair enough: he does sound a little bit too angry. But he's also dealing with drug dealers and are children involved. Jason would be in an angry mood because of it. The thing is, how he would show that anger. Because, unlike Dick's way of being angry, Jason isn't not the explosive type. It's traditionally the menacing, fearsome, calculated and rather cold one. I still remain pretty hopeful for a good, respectful portrayal.

[CorDaytona]

I'm curious, what kind of new premise/status quo would you all want for Jason after B:UL (knowing little to nothing of this story...)?

Like, regarding state of mind, relationship with other characters, cast, city/cities of operation, level and tone of the threats he'll tackle, outfit and weapons, etc.

I'd start with a more classic getup and him travelling around the world solving conflicts here and there (maybe with a common plot thread), far from Gotham and with a good (without "buts") relationship with the Batfamily, leaving the past behind as well as they can. Also, more grounded stories, which doesn't mean I only want gangsters and not supernatural enemies, it's just that I'm more than ready to let hell, milennia-old magic wars and space adventures rest for a good time.

As for the cast, I'd like for Jason to mostly go solo (so no more Outlaws or derivatives), but still sorround himself with recurring characters that might work with him as a support team that occasionally goes on the field. Also, for as much as I liked Artemis and Bizarro, I'm ready to let them go, although I'd like the relationship to be acknowledged and, maybe down the line, for them to have some guest appareances. Same goes for Roy, although they need to have a reunion now that he's back.

[Zaresh]

I like a wide range of stories. I'm not so fond of big epics, but besides that, anything goes. From adventure, to horror. That being said, I like strong character interactions; so stories in which Jason interacts, works and develops relationships with other characters are up my alley. Maybe not a team book, but some kind of dynamic with other characters more often than not is of my likes. I'm not a solo reader, or at least, not an only solo reader: it kinds of bores me after a while.

[CorDaytona]

I like a wide range of stories. I'm not so fond of big epics, but besides that, anything goes. From adventure, to horror. That being said, I like strong character interactions; so stories in which Jason interacts, works and develops relationships with other characters are up my alley. Maybe not a team book, but some kind of dynamic with other characters more often than not is of my likes. I'm not a solo reader, or at least, not an only solo reader: it kinds of bores me after a while.

I hear you, I too need a strong cast that the titular character can bounce off of. With a rotating cast you get that, but a more permanent group of characters give room to more drama and banter.

Since we've had Jason as part of a team since 2010 (start of Outlaw and other instances aside), I'd like for him to be on the field by himself, but still being sorrounded by an entourage that supports/guides him and occasionally gets in on the action. Preferably brand new characters, for freshness' sake (I like how well used an established character such as Artemis was, though).

Now that you mention horror, I'd like some of that. I guess there are certain horror vibes during Rebirth (the first Outlaw arc), but going further down that path could be cool, especially in places like Europe for a more gothic feel (so you'd get a Gotham vibe without having to share the city with the family).

Oh, and bring the dog back.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Fair enough: he does sound a little bit too angry. But he's also dealing with drug dealers and are children involved. Jason would be in an angry mood because of it. The thing is, how he would show that anger. Because, unlike Dick's way of being angry, Jason isn't not the explosive type. It's traditionally the menacing, fearsome, calculated and rather cold one. I still remain pretty hopeful for a good, respectful portrayal.

That's another thing, thanks to Ducra's teachings and his own growth as an individual, Jason had mellowed out and wasn't so prone to lashing out, being able to take a moment to collect himself and act in spite of his feelings and not because of them. Ironically, that is one of the few aspects that Robinson got right in Future State where he always remained in control of his feelings despite all the crap he got thrown at.

I'm curious, what kind of new premise/status quo would you all want for Jason after B:UL (knowing little to nothing of this story...)?

Like, regarding state of mind, relationship with other characters, cast, city/cities of operation, level and tone of the threats he'll tackle, outfit and weapons, etc.

I'd start with a more classic getup and him travelling around the world solving conflicts here and there (maybe with a common plot thread), far from Gotham and with a good (without "buts") relationship with the Batfamily, leaving the past behind as well as they can. Also, more grounded stories, which doesn't mean I only want gangsters and not supernatural enemies, it's just that I'm more than ready to let hell, milennia-old magic wars and space adventures rest for a good time.

As for the cast, I'd like for Jason to mostly go solo (so no more Outlaws or derivatives), but still sorround himself with recurring characters that might work with him as a support team that occasionally goes on the field. Also, for as much as I liked Artemis and Bizarro, I'm ready to let them go, although I'd like the relationship to be acknowledged and, maybe down the line, for them to have some guest appareances. Same goes for Roy, although they need to have a reunion now that he's back.

I do agree that Jason needs to stay the hell out of Gotham and settle down in a place to call his own, with a good relationship with the Batfamily but otherwise detached from them. But I disagree about the need of keeping Jason alone nor limiting to grounded stories. as it has been proved, again and again, Jason without stable partners (be just one ally or a full team) is pretty limiting narratively especially since he needs people to bounce off and to keep him anchored to a certain degree. Personally, I found that the Red Hood Arsenal period was the best moment in Jason's story, and such, I'd like to see their partnership return. The original run was smothered on the crib by editorial stepping in every time Lobdell tried to do anything so we only saw a fraction of the potential the setting had.

As for the stories themselves, Jason is one of those few characters that can thrive in any setting so I want to see writers take more risks and use him in any stories they can think of, to break from the notion he can only be a Punisher ripoff or the angry Batman with Guns. Want to take him to space? Sure! Go back to fight magic and demons? Let's go. Dismantle an international crime organization? What are you waiting for

The point being, I don't want Jason to go the way of Bane and find himself retreading the same story beats again and again forever.

[CorDaytona]

That's another thing, thanks to Ducra's teachings and his own growth as an individual, Jason had mellowed out and wasn't so prone to lashing out, being able to take a moment to collect himself and act in spite of his feelings and not because of them. Ironically, that is one of the few aspects that Robinson got right in Future State where he always remained in control of his feelings despite all the crap he got thrown at.



I do agree that Jason needs to stay the hell out of Gotham and settle down in a place to call his own, with a good relationship with the Batfamily but otherwise detached from them. But I disagree about the need of keeping Jason alone nor limiting to grounded stories. as it has been proved, again and again, Jason without stable partners (be just one ally or a full team) is pretty limiting narratively especially since he needs people to bounce off and to keep him anchored to a certain degree. Personally, I found that the Red Hood Arsenal period was the best moment in Jason's story, and such, I'd like to see their partnership return. The original run was smothered on the crib by editorial stepping in every time Lobdell tried to do anything so we only saw a fraction of the potential the setting had.

As for the stories themselves, Jason is one of those few characters that can thrive in any setting so I want to see writers take more risks and use him in any stories they can think of, to break from the notion he can only be a Punisher ripoff or the angry Batman with Guns. Want to take him to space? Sure! Go back to fight magic and demons? Let's go. Dismantle an international crime organization? What are you waiting for

The point being, I don't want Jason to go the way of Bane and find himself retreading the same story beats again and again forever.

Oh, I also want to see him interacting with a permanent cast. I guess I'd like to see him mostly on his own on the field while still having a supporting team, as his solo has mostly been as part of a trinity. Basically, him building his own company or network and each member having their own speciality. Although I wouldn't mind him being in another team, be it Outlaws or other.

In any case, the main reason I want something a little bit less grandiose is because how his run mostly went in terms of the big and overarching plot points. While it was somewhat rushed and aimless (wonder how much Year of the Villain factored there) and not as good as the first few Rebirth arcs, I enjoyed Prince of Gotham precisely because of that change of tone, on top of exploring Jason's public persona and relationship with some redeemed villains.

All in all, I'm very open to any ideas they might have as long as they stop retreading old ground over and over. I've had Joker and Batfamily conflicts to last a lifetime and I don't see them topping UtRH in terms of quality, so why bother continuing with that.

[Sergard]

What I would like to see:

1) Jason traveling the world and somewhere along the line finding a new home aka his own city to protect - which is far, far away from Gotham and modeled to fit his character/filled with the kind of injustices he wants to fight the most. Jason won't be restricted to this city but it's his home and base that furthermore allows Red Hood writers to have free reign over everything that happens in the city. It's also a potential starting point for new writers so that they don't default to Gotham anymore. Jason has outgrown Batman's city years ago (Gotham is also a horrible city for several reasons). It's time to allow the character to leave for good and let it stick.

2) Reappearance of old but underused allies like Crux, FBI-agent Melissa Mitchell, "fixer" Tara Battleworth and - of course - Dog. I want to see more of them and together with other characters, like Ma Gunn and the Su sisters, they are good choices for supporting characters. Maybe some writer also remembers Numbers from Steve Orlando's Gotham Nights story.

3) More stories about Jason focusing on saving one person at a time and showcasing how far Jason is willing to go to save/help one person - like he did for Suzie Su.

4) Portraying characters with a variety of morals and presenting moral dilemmas. Jason doesn't always have to be the one who has to face the moral dilemma. It would also be interesting to see Jason's reaction to somebody else who had to face a moral dilemma. Will he understand the difficulty or will he be judgemental?

5) Detective stories. Actual detective stories. Not the stuff that DC has claimed to be detective stories in the last decades.

6) Jason building his own network of allies around the world. Jason and his allies operate completely independently from other superheroes/superhero groups. I've zero interest in seeing appearances by the Justice League, bat-family, Young Justice, Justice something, Titans, Titans something, etc. - and especially: no events, tie-ins or crossovers.

7) Less focus on creating a rogue gallery, more focus on a specific theme/problem/moral of the story. It's more likely for an enemy to be either redeemed/changed into an ally or defeated for good than hanging around for decades without ever undergoing some kind of change/development. NO ARCHENEMY! This is one of the stupidest tropes in the history of superhero comics.

8) Jason has a civilian life. He sometimes struggles with his "work-life-balance" but he's serious about trying to maintain a civilian life.

9) The Red Hood identity is not a mirror of Jason's personality but a tool to save people. Depending on the mission, Jason will create a new identity and maybe even play around with several identities during a case if necessary. This also includes, depending on the mission, a change of weapons.

[Restingvoice]

A fan review is out on Tumblr, and Jason isn't the one they badly depicted. It's Bruce.

Here we go again, Side B.

PS: Said fan prefers gritty urban solo Red Hood, not magic space adventure, though you can already tell that from the preview. No one's posting pages yet, but my impression is I don't think this is for Dark.

[Zaresh]

A fan review is out on Tumblr, and Jason isn't the one they badly depicted. It's Bruce.

Here we go again, Side B.

PS: Said fan prefers gritty urban solo Red Hood, not magic space adventure, though you can already tell that from the preview. No one's posting pages yet, but my impression is I don't think this is for Dark.

Some fans in Tumblr are very passionate and tend to overreact. I'll wait and see. I seriously doubt Bruce would be badly written in a work in which he's the titular character (outside whatever King wrote). Editorial has a too strong hand on those works, I think, to something like that to happen.
But if it does happen, heh, wouldn't be the first time, either. Which is why I don't like Bruce anymore.
But I'll wait and see. Only a few more hours^.

[DragonPiece]

A fan review is out on Tumblr, and Jason isn't the one they badly depicted. It's Bruce.

Here we go again, Side B.

PS: Said fan prefers gritty urban solo Red Hood, not magic space adventure, though you can already tell that from the preview. No one's posting pages yet, but my impression is I don't think this is for Dark.

I read it, don't think anyone is badly decipted. It's a 6 part story, I imagine things will be resolved by the end of it.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I read it. The set-up so far is eerily reminiscent of the way Johns wrote both Jason and Bruce in Three Jokers. Jason is extremely emotional and this leads to him making some pretty stupid mistakes and even though Zdarsky tries to justify his mindset somewhat it still comes across as forced. Bruce is in full "Jason is bad" mode that doesn't make a lick of sense for how they've been depicted in Infinite Frontier so far and since the hook of the story relies completely on the one-shot makes this decision utterly baffling. Too early to say if the story will correct the course but I ma going to keep my expectations low.

That said, Zdarsky seems to have kept the latest revision Lobdell did to Jason's backstory so there's that.

[Arsenal]

Jason was in the IF one shot?

[GSman]

Jason was in the IF one shot?

Yeah for like a panel, which was showing the main players of Gotham in the Batman story, and in a group shot. He wasn't focused on.