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  1. #46
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    My words were regarding Restingvoice's mostly. My apologies, I should've quoted.

    Hmmm, I don't think the stuff with Artemis was really big, or the thing with the meta kids, or the last part with the all-caste stuff. They were isolated incidents that didn't affect more that a part of some country at worst. And contained to Jason's and Artemis stories. They weren't street level, but they weren't epic either. Just average superheroic stories you see in stuff like Blue Beetle or Shazam, for example. The part with Kori in the space did fall more into the epic cathegory (by being more apace opera-like). Or the part with Jason fighting Ra's in the original New 52 story.
    My bad really, I should have taken a better look at the thread myself

    And yeah, while there were other arcs in between (and you didn't see, say, Essence or an Untitled for a long time), it was still the most prevalent running thread throughout the run (correct me if I'm wrong, my memory is really bad) to the point of ending 9 years of storylines with hell, Trigon, past versions of the Outlaws and all of that. I guess that's what I mean, I could do with a lesser degree of crazy comic shenanigans so that when they happen, they hit better instead of it being yet another occurrence.

    But yeah, I did like Artemis' story, not only because I found it interesting (and loved how he wrote Artemis), but it was also very self-contained in both scale and narrative placing within the book.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Sorry for all this posting, I'm in a rush and can't post properly.

    You all know, what annoys me a little bit? That we're discussing what Jason's stories should be and shouldn't be about, what settings and villains he should or shouldn't face, like is a fundamental part that defines his character... but you rarely see that discussion brought to other character's thread. I don't mean you never see them, but it's more rare to be put in doubt.
    I've see this kind of discussion in Nightwing thread.

    In other appreciation threads, fans are usually more worried that the character appear on something.


    Honestly, the reason why people want Jason as a street level vigilante is because his most popular stories belong to this kind (not to mention his connection to Batman), so many fans think that is "his place". If Jason was part of a really popular team book or a story with magical elements, fans will likely accept that.

    Even with Batman, fans prefer him as a "street level" for his solo, but accept him in the big supernatural elements for Justice League.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    "a white streak" - Otto Schmidt
    Eqk7hhtW4AMf4qy.jpg

  4. #49
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I've see this kind of discussion in Nightwing thread.

    In other appreciation threads, fans are usually more worried that the character appear on something.


    Honestly, the reason why people want Jason as a street level vigilante is because his most popular stories belong to this kind (not to mention his connection to Batman), so many fans think that is "his place". If Jason was part of a really popular team book or a story with magical elements, fans will likely accept that.

    Even with Batman, fans prefer him as a "street level" for his solo, but accept him in the big supernatural elements for Justice League.
    Dick is the only one I can think comes close to being discussed as much, and what's discussed has more to do with him staying in blud or not, or if he needs some job, or if he can do more spy stories or not. The thing about being a spy is the only one similar, I think. But besides that, it's rarely discussed if he should stay just street level. Or at leaat I don't see it discussed when I visit his thread.

    Bruce does get some discussion about it sometimes.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-04-2021 at 06:42 AM.
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  5. #50
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Double post
    Last edited by Rise; 01-05-2021 at 02:23 AM.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
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  6. #51
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    From Dexter Soy:
    Eq5BNJSVQAcZiNR.jpg

    Best Jason and Red Hood designs tbh.

  7. #52
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    I checked the march solicits and I was pleasantly surprised to find out that Jason is the only one who has an interesting premise because nothing else interested me. I actually don't mind that his book was cancelled and I'm not worried about his future because he is in better place than many other characters (including favourites).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Sorry for all this posting, I'm in a rush and can't post properly.

    You all know, what annoys me a little bit? That we're discussing what Jason's stories should be and shouldn't be about, what settings and villains he should or shouldn't face, like is a fundamental part that defines his character... but you rarely see that discussion brought to other character's thread. I don't mean you never see them, but it's more rare to be put in doubt.
    Because he is the one who went through so much different settings in a single run compared to the rest and they weren't excatly well received.

    Lobdell replaced lost days with the all-caste which lets be honest here, the former is the better story. He has a bad habit of changing/fixing things that don't need changing/fixing (like his origin, lost days and utrh) and leaving things that actually need fixing (like post UTRH period) while throwing bunch of ideas that either went nowhere or had an unsatisfying conclusion. It's no wonder why many people want a return to the basics.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
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  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Lobdell replaced lost days with the all-caste which lets be honest here, the former is the better story. He has a bad habit of changing/fixing things that don't need changing/fixing (like his origin, lost days and utrh) and leaving things that actually need fixing (like post UTRH period) while throwing bunch of ideas that either went nowhere or had an unsatisfying conclusion. It's no wonder why many people want a return to the basics.
    How so? Lost Days is just six issues where the only thing that happens is Winnick going "see how badass Jason is. He's a tough guy that doesn't care for anything" To not mention eh whole "sleep with Talia" thing that no one really liked. It doesn't elaborate upon Jason's mindset nor the experiences he went through, Jason remained the same character throughout the entire series with no growth or evolution. It didn't explore Jason's reactions to the major events that transpired on Gotham over the years, and it even failed to properly bridge its narrative to Hush, which arguably, it was the whole damn point of the mini in the first place.

    The All-Caste backstory main focus is making him grow as a character by having a positive influence in the shape of Ducra (and Essence to a certain degree) the mythical elements of the story are honestly superfluous and just there to add flavor, it was never the focus. The biggest flaw is how little we actually know from that period of time but that is somewhat understandable, both Lobdell and the editorial wanted to focus on the present rather than the past. And I can't say I entirely disagree with that approach.

    Anyways, the ending of Death Metal confirmed that Future State is an alternate universe, so yeah. There goes any concern about Jason's characterization in Dark Detective.

  9. #54
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    It does? So it's analternate continuity now?

    Btw, I haven't read Death Metal, and have no interest in it, but I keep reading that it goes again for the "everything happened." So I was guessing Lost Days was again in canon oficially, however that would work. Does it not? Edit: nevermind. It's remembering stuff, not adding back.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-05-2021 at 10:17 AM.
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  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    It does? So it's analternate continuity now?

    Btw, I haven't read Death Metal, and have no interest in it, but I keep reading that it goes again for the "everything happened." So I was guessing Lost Days was again in canon oficially, however that would work. Does it not? Edit: nevermind. It's remembering stuff, not adding back.
    Yeah at the end

    spoilers:
    The Justice League talks about how the Multiverse has been completely restored but not only that, that now there's multiple multiverses and among the worlds shown there's a panel of Tim Fox Batman and Dark Detective Bruce
    end of spoilers

  11. #56
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    It really wouldn't be that hard to mesh the bulk of Lost Days with the newer All-Caste background if they wanted to. All they would need to do is make Ducra be the last teacher Talia brings Jason to before he goes to confront Bruce in UTH.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    It really wouldn't be that hard to mesh the bulk of Lost Days with the newer All-Caste background if they wanted to. All they would need to do is make Ducra be the last teacher Talia brings Jason to before he goes to confront Bruce in UTH.
    Or the first. In the end of the ceremony of Jason's "graduation" in the all caste he shows that he still wants to kill Bruce and the Joker like in the beginning of lost days. Maybe he felt their teachings weren't brutal or technologically advanced enough to his liking and asked Talia for more training. There's no need to choose one or the other, he could've had both.

  13. #58
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trt-R5 View Post
    Or the first. In the end of the ceremony of Jason's "graduation" in the all caste he shows that he still wants to kill Bruce and the Joker like in the beginning of lost days. Maybe he felt their teachings weren't brutal or technologically advanced enough to his liking and asked Talia for more training. There's no need to choose one or the other, he could've had both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    It really wouldn't be that hard to mesh the bulk of Lost Days with the newer All-Caste background if they wanted to. All they would need to do is make Ducra be the last teacher Talia brings Jason to before he goes to confront Bruce in UTH.
    They need to either age up Jason under Ducra or deage the Jason in Lost Days. And a few other tweaks, actually. It's doable, but it's not an easy task. Also, Talia's relationship is of a different nature. Being the first probably fits better overall, I guess.

    Now, how do we reconcile pre and post-crisis Jason... Or, heck, it he just remembers that stuff too, it could give a new layer to how he sees and deals with Croc. It gives me a few nice ideas.
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  14. #59
    Astonishing Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    It really wouldn't be that hard to mesh the bulk of Lost Days with the newer All-Caste background if they wanted to. All they would need to do is make Ducra be the last teacher Talia brings Jason to before he goes to confront Bruce in UTH.
    Honestly outside of a few tweaks here and there, between the two training stories, that's pretty much how I've been accepting the stories all this time, as both of them being canon. Firstly because it really isn't too much of a stretch (again with a few tweaks) to slot Lost Days as taking place before the All-Caste or even after the All-Caste, since in secret origins #5 we see Jason thank Ducra for all her help but then brush her aside and still move on with his plans, aka UTRH. So the idea that he would move on to learn more deadly skills even after his experiences with an enlightened teacher isn't too much of a stretch. And secondly because Lost Days is just too good of a character study story to just cast aside in favour of only having the mystical monk training, the majority of which is severely underdeveloped anyway. I prefer a complete story that's able to give me the full picture of a character, their intentions, their limits, their abilities and behaviour as opposed to a story of just training delivered in bits and pieces.
    Last edited by RedBird; 01-05-2021 at 01:20 PM.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    Honestly outside of a few tweaks here and there, between the two training stories, that's pretty much how I've been accepting the stories all this time, as both of them being canon. Firstly because it really isn't too much of a stretch (again with a few tweaks) to slot Lost Days as taking place before the All-Caste or even after the All-Caste, since in secret origins #5 we see Jason thank Ducra for all her help but then brush her aside and still move on with his plans, aka UTRH. So the idea that he would move on to learn more deadly skills even after his experiences with an enlightened teacher isn't too much of a stretch. And secondly because Lost Days is just too good of a character study story to just cast aside in favour of only having the mystical monk training, the majority of which is severely underdeveloped anyway. I prefer a complete story that's able to give me the full picture of a character, their intentions, their limits, their abilities and behaviour as opposed to a story of just training delivered in bits and pieces.
    What part of Lost Days is a good character study exactly? The only thing it shows is that Jason is a petty, vindictive guy with no loyalties to anyone but himself, with any good deeds he makes being just things he stumbled upon entirely by coincidence. That aside, Tynion did try to add his own spin of Lost Days during his tenure as writer and went as well as everything else he tackled in those issues. Unsurprisingly, Lobdell made sure to establish a timeline afterward saying that Jason went from the All-Caste to China to extort money from the Familia De Flores and then to Gotham to face Bruce.

    Honestly, I find both backstories being at odds with each other since the training angle would just repeat itself from the All-Caste to a bunch of random OCs making Jason go to training twice and if you rework the events of Lost Days just keeping Jason saving the kids on prague and stopping the bombing in England, then you might as well for a whole new story to showcase Jason's noble intentions anyways.

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