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  1. #61
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    I’m just saying there’s no need to pick one of the other when we could easily get the best of both instead. It requires a bit of streamlining of course but at worst that means getting rid of some random OCs in his early pre-hood training days.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    How so? Lost Days is just six issues where the only thing that happens is Winnick going "see how badass Jason is. He's a tough guy that doesn't care for anything" To not mention eh whole "sleep with Talia" thing that no one really liked. It doesn't elaborate upon Jason's mindset nor the experiences he went through, Jason remained the same character throughout the entire series with no growth or evolution. It didn't explore Jason's reactions to the major events that transpired on Gotham over the years, and it even failed to properly bridge its narrative to Hush, which arguably, it was the whole damn point of the mini in the first place.

    The All-Caste backstory main focus is making him grow as a character by having a positive influence in the shape of Ducra (and Essence to a certain degree) the mythical elements of the story are honestly superfluous and just there to add flavor, it was never the focus. The biggest flaw is how little we actually know from that period of time but that is somewhat understandable, both Lobdell and the editorial wanted to focus on the present rather than the past. And I can't say I entirely disagree with that approach.

    Anyways, the ending of Death Metal confirmed that Future State is an alternate universe, so yeah. There goes any concern about Jason's characterization in Dark Detective.
    I know that you aren't his biggest fan, but try to be a bit fair here. I don't know from where did you get that lost days was made to connect to hush because it was clearly done to show us Jason journey into becoming Red Hood which worked pretty well and was a great prequal for UTRH.

    And no, I don't think All-Caste work well with lost days. The idea itself isn't bad (I actually like it), but I would instead have it post UTRH (the period that actually needed fixing which for unexplained reasons to me, Lobdell refused to do anything about it) where he was found and rescued by All-Caste after a mission went wrong. I would have Ducra (his only wise mentor) be the reason for Jason becoming chill after UTRH and why he accepted Kory and Roy.

    And to follow my own advice. I will be fair to Lobdell too. There's a reason why I starting reading RHATO and there are a lot of things I enjoyed about it. He isn't a safe writer and I appreciate his crazy ideas (I just don't like how they went nowhere and had an unsatisfying conclusion). He doesn't get enough credits (even by you guys here) for his writing of emotional scenes. Issue 23 from Rebirth is all time favourite single issue, Jason/Bizarro relationship was simply touching and Roy's issues with addiction was pretty well done. I'm just disappointed that there were so much potential that end up being wasted and the editors excuse doesn't work on me because he isn't a new writer who has no experience in dealing with them (having his run being interrupted many times in 52 is a different matter though which I do excuse).
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
    – Dale Carnegie

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    What part of Lost Days is a good character study exactly? The only thing it shows is that Jason is a petty, vindictive guy with no loyalties to anyone but himself, with any good deeds he makes being just things he stumbled upon entirely by coincidence.
    Honestly the entire thing is good.

    Also, 'stumbling' into them or not, being put into situations where one is faced with making a decision is a great part of building character, as well as how they go about their decision. Jason doing good deeds is exactly what helps to establish his morals for the audience and shows us who he is, as opposed to the dialogue from characters telling us who he is in the book. Also most if not all the good deeds he acts upon in the book is entirely of his own volition, not something he is encouraged to do. He is presented in the book (by Talia and her goon) as sociopathic, a disorder which includes individuals having little regard for their own safety of the safety of others, yet all throughout Lost Days we see that isn't the case.

    I'll give an example, in Lost Days #3, Jason doesn't just 'stumble' across information, he is aware of his surroundings and he suspects Egon, his then teacher, is hiding something and does what any good detective does, he snoops, and ends up finding out that Egon is selling children. He then plans ahead so that even before physically confronting Egon, he ensures that he poisons Egons drink and automatically gives himself the upper hand in the confrontation. After would he drops the kids off at a British Embassy and burns all evidence of his existence there.

    Jason is ultimately confronted with a moral dilemma, the first one in the series that really breaks away from the perceived image of him as a sociopathic character thus far. Jason finds out about these kids, and regardless of whether you consider it to be morally reasonable or not, that surely any heroic character would help, at this point in the story Jason has very much only served himself and is a villain so this is a situation he could very well ignore, it's not his problem, it's not beneficial to his plans. But he still actively chooses to save the children, their situation clearly goes against his morals. He chooses not to just hand Egon over to authorities and escape, but to kill him him for his crimes, despite the fact that he is losing a valuable resource in the form of a mentor. Just from that, we as an audience understand and confirm that Jason does have limits, that he does have moral lines, that he won't allow criminals of that calibre to simply walk away in cuffs either, that he will use lethal measures against them and he is tactical about it. Also that he is inquisitive, he is not just training and moving on, we see that throughout the series, if something else is happening that might go against his morals, he wants to know and be sure. And yes, he doesn't have loyalty to his mentor, he will gladly train alongside someone till he finds particular skeletons in their closet and then get rid of them.

    Even the way he goes about killing Egon shows that Jason isn't a particularly noble character, he will 'cheat' if it means winning in the end and he isn't fussed about it, he is not particularly prideful or egotistical. He then burns all evidence of his existence there to cover his tracks. This isn't a rash decision he is making, it's very much calculated. And as an added bonus, Jason also has conversations with Talia in Lost Days about his training, and Talia at first questions his decision, this wasn't something she necessarily put Jason out to do, even if she later on shows some signs of approval. In their conversation, the one that appears after he kills Egon, it shows Jason rationalising Egons death by stating that he didn't 'murder' him, that you can only murder people. Again, that is telling us that for Jason he can easily justify the deaths of people he takes down by dehumanising them.

    All this insight coming from a moral dilemma from where Jason has to actively make a choice, and of course chooses to help and to kill with no hesitation. From this sequence alone we're given plenty of information about Jason, and how he acts and reacts to the situations around him and how it defines his character.

    Compare that with say, the flashback intro sequence in Red Hood Outlaw #34 which sets up a situation where Jason also comes across children he must save from a 'monster' as part of his All-Caste trials. But notice that despite the fact that the same goal is being achieved here, Jason isn't making any moral decision. There is no dilemma presented to him to see how he will react and whether or not he will do the right thing. Now yes, of course he is doing the more traditionally heroic thing and rescuing children from a monster, that's a brave act, but it isn't an active decision to save the children or a decision made entirely just for their sake since it's undercut by the fact that this is simply part of his trials. There's no moral quandary here or anything to indicate that Jason doing the right thing would not be beneficial to him either, to the contrary, Jason defeating the creature is very much beneficial to him since it also saves his life, also seals his place as an All-Caste member and is a task set up and supported by his mentor Ducra. The only thing we can take from this is that Jason is good at fighting since he does defeat the monster, but do we learn anything about his personality or character other then him being 'a smart talking badass' and able to take on monsters in training. Not really.

    To be clear, I'm not stating that these moments are entirely comparable, this is not a 1 to 1 comparison, and there's nothing inherently wrong with the Red Hood # 34 sequence, I'm just using it as an easy way to point out why Lost Days is a good character study by showing just how much information that series provides to the audience about Jasons character based on the situations it throws at him, especially when compared to a more regular comic scene like #34. Regardless of whether or not you care for this characterisation of Jason in Lost Days is irrelevant, the story is still great at giving a lot of information about it's protagonist in such a short amount of time.


    On a side note though, frankly the majority of Jason's scenes with the All-Caste really do provide little to no insight into his character other than he is stubborn, angry, has little to no respect for authority figures from the get go, and is very much focused on his own goals. Which is all information that is also provided in Lost Days anyway. Otherwise the "see how badass Jason is. He's a tough guy that doesn't care for anything" criticism you hold for Lost Days could very well easily be applied to the majority of the All-Caste training stuff. Where Jason can be broken down to basically just a 'chosen one badass who acts all nonchalant about his abilities and doesn't care for anything'. Now I'm not claiming that to be the case at all, just pointing out that this statement is a very broad simplification that can be applied to both backstories if you try hard enough to look over or brush aside all the developments in both stories.

    In absolute fairness, I don't really think the All-Caste stories were intended to be a character study like Lost Days, most of the All-Caste training seemed to be focused on developing some aspects of the lore and Jasons abilities, most aspects of Jasons positive influence with Ducra seem to appear after the training and after he leaves and turns his back on her. There's only one particular sequence that sticks out as actually providing the audience with character insight and that's in the Red Hood Outlaw #45 intro flashback sequence with Jason and Ducra, where he takes it upon himself to try and rescue Essence despite Ducras warnings. There is an actual moral quandary and one that helps define Jasons character. Similar to Lost Days I might add, Jason is faced with a dilemma, where his morals are not aligning with his mentor, where he is faced with a decision, one that is not benefitting him or his situation but still compels him to act upon it and helps define him better for the audience. Because despite the fact that his mentor is against the decision, despite the fact that it goes against All-Caste rules/traditions, despite the fact that he knows he may very well die or be trapped with Essence at whatever her final trial is, he is still making an active decision to try and save her, and he does it with a smile on his face. It's a short but nice sequence that helps to show the kind of morals Jason has, the kind of risks he will take for others, and the kind of attitude he will do it all with.
    Last edited by RedBird; 01-06-2021 at 08:39 AM.

  4. #64
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    A little fun fact about Red Hood #51.

    Shawn Martinbrough (see tweet for photos)

    "So my incredible sis surprised me with King Koti rolls from my fav Biryani cart on 46th & 6th Ave in Manhattan. I even worked these bad boys into my recent #RedHood story. Art inspires Art."





    Quote Originally Posted by CorDaytona View Post
    From Dexter Soy:


    Best Jason and Red Hood designs tbh.
    Dexter Soy is incredible . I'm still a little baffled that (at least so far) he didn't get a new on-going. His style is especially perfect for a character like Jason. It's modern, nice to look at, conveys emotions well, shows cool fight poses, can emphasize on dark or light moments and offers some great character designs. Dexter Soy's Jason and Artemis are perfection. But of course, colorist Veronica Gandini also plays a big role in this. Her colors make the art shine even more.
    Last edited by Sergard; 01-06-2021 at 02:53 AM.

  5. #65
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    Generally agree with Rise and RedBird about Lost Days and the All-Caste. I felt like the latter was mostly cool window dressing with little to no substance in its developments and characters, all of that despite having a privileged position as the overarching story. Also very rushed, many times going nowhere. The concept I like (I'm a sucker for hidden mystical societies and immortals).

    It's been years, but Jason during LD made sense to me for the reasons explained in this page and as a preamble to UtRH, where he's obsessed and emotionally scarred. He's not at his best. He's not mentally there yet, his new identity and place in the world still to be formed. And, considering how different of a guy he is these days, I'd find his development and progression much more impactful had that background been kept. On that note, that's probably what I appreciate Lobdell's RH the most: taking Jason out of the stupid path he was on before N52.

    As for the things I don't, my main beef with Lobdell's creative decisions might be the whole Willis Todd stuff. That was fucking ridiculous. The entire concept, the Artemis connection, the unfocusedness of it with the rushed bait-and-switch twists, the ending that comes all of a sudden and goes nowhere... I guess editorial mandate might be to blame in some of these, but it still doesn't excuse the premise, which I hate. Same with the Joker thing (although I can't remember if it was a lie, retconned or whatever). Just let Jason be a normal dude.

    In any case, after reading the last Death Metal, I reiterate: his MK outfit reaaaaally needs to go. I can't stand how he looks with most artists, regardless of their talent. I'm sad he's still wearing it in Urban Legends

    Oh, and spoilers for The Next Batman's third story:
    spoilers:
    A version of the Arkham Knight appears. It's not Jason, but it's fun to see the persona again.
    end of spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    Dexter Soy is incredible . I'm still a little baffled that (at least so far) he didn't get a new on-going. His style is especially perfect for a character like Jason. It's modern, nice to look at, conveys emotions well, shows cool fight poses, can emphasize on dark or light moments and offers some great character designs. Dexter Soy's Jason and Artemis are perfection. But of course, colorist Veronica Gandini also plays a big role in this. Her colors make the art shine even more.
    Yeah, I really want him back, especially on RH Can't think of a creative that loves the character as much as he seems to. While it was whatever (I enjoyed it), him drawing Jason again on the Hush Dark Multiverse thing was cool.
    Last edited by CorDaytona; 01-06-2021 at 11:15 AM.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorDaytona View Post
    It's been years, but Jason during LD made sense to me for the reasons explained in this page and as a preamble to UtRH, where he's obsessed and emotionally scarred. He's not at his best. He's not mentally there yet, his new identity and place in the world still to be formed. And, considering how different of a guy he is these days, I'd find his development and progression much more impactful had that background been kept. On that note, that's probably what I appreciate Lobdell's RH the most: taking Jason out of the stupid path he was on before N52.
    Exactly, the whole point of Lost Days was seeing how a kid could become so consumed with pain and emotionally devastated to then go through with this UTRH plan in the first place. And I agree, that Lost Days only helps to make Jasons return to the light more impactful when we know just how dark of a place he had to come back from.

    Honestly as well as having Lost Days take place before UTRH, I think the All-Caste stuff should have been placed squarely AFTER UTRH, as a convenient event to replace all the OOC nonsense (like BFTC etc) that came after would. Would that not have made more sense? That way the All-Caste could have actually been used as a place Jason found that helped to heal his pain and enlighten him and set him on a new anti-hero path. I understand that's the impression the All-Caste content was supposed to give, but it's very much undercut by the fact that it's a place of positive influences that Jason immediately turns his back on to enact his UTRH plans anyway, and to only then return to when his plans don't work out.

    It's a matter of trajectory and where the characters arc is leading to, it makes more sense that Lost Days would set up a negative, yet controlled, downwards trajectory into UTRH, and that the All-Caste could set a positive and upwards trajectory out of Jasons UTRH characterisation. If (ignoring a lot of the nonsense that came after it) UTRH was to be Jasons darkest moment, then we need to see how he got there, and Lost Days served as a great story to show a characters descent into villainy but without them losing all their humanity, if the All-Caste completely replaces that, it only shows that even with a positive influence and mentor that Jason is just predisposed to villainy.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorDaytona View Post
    As for the things I don't, my main beef with Lobdell's creative decisions might be the whole Willis Todd stuff. That was fucking ridiculous. The entire concept, the Artemis connection, the unfocusedness of it with the rushed bait-and-switch twists, the ending that comes all of a sudden and goes nowhere...
    I agree. The "suit man (Solitary) " clue was planted at the very beginning of the Rebirth series and had become a regular "teasing element" as the story went on. I can't remember how many discussions / interpretations were made in RH appreciation thread and monthly issue post. I really miss this period of time.

    But I think the rush-off of the Solitary encounter soon after Jason went solo was a result of Lex Luthor - Leviathan story interference from editorial side. Then this "suit man" line had to be quickly dropped. Then it was patched up by a Wingman who suddenly came out from nowhere without revealing his ture identity. Meanwhile Jason just happened to be not interested enough to know who this guy is...... It's really sad for me to watch this whole "suit man" storyline ending in this weird way after years of expectation. I hate those story cross-over and editorial mandate.

  8. #68
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    Exactly, the whole point of Lost Days was seeing how a kid could become so consumed with pain and emotionally devastated to then go through with this UTRH plan in the first place. And I agree, that Lost Days only helps to make Jasons return to the light more impactful when we know just how dark of a place he had to come back from.

    Honestly as well as having Lost Days take place before UTRH, I think the All-Caste stuff should have been placed squarely AFTER UTRH, as a convenient event to replace all the OOC nonsense (like BFTC etc) that came after would. Would that not have made more sense? That way the All-Caste could have actually been used as a place Jason found that helped to heal his pain and enlighten him and set him on a new anti-hero path. I understand that's the impression the All-Caste content was supposed to give, but it's very much undercut by the fact that it's a place of positive influences that Jason immediately turns his back on to enact his UTRH plans anyway, and to only then return to when his plans don't work out.

    It's a matter of trajectory and where the characters arc is leading to, it makes more sense that Lost Days would set up a negative, yet controlled, downwards trajectory into UTRH, and that the All-Caste could set a positive and upwards trajectory out of Jasons UTRH characterisation. If (ignoring a lot of the nonsense that came after it) UTRH was to be Jasons darkest moment, then we need to see how he got there, and Lost Days served as a great story to show a characters descent into villainy but without them losing all their humanity, if the All-Caste completely replaces that, it only shows that even with a positive influence and mentor that Jason is just predisposed to villainy.
    Yeah, I'm very down with that idea (meant to mention you in my previous post but accidentally deleted it when editing :B). It'd honestly be a nice transition from a not very functional Jason to, progressively, the nice guy he is at heart, but with all the nuance his unique path as a Robin gives him. Like, there are interesting things you could do with the All-Caste, Ducra and Essence to give Jason a mystical edge the other Robins don't really have. Gotta say, seeing the big improvement (during the first arcs mostly) Rebirth meant over N52, I wonder how much better Lobdell would have dealt with that whole thing. It was very awkwardly placed and rushed in N52, much like Jason's encounter with Starfire.

    I really wonder what his approach will be starting in FS and, especially, IF. The premise of both stories indicate something more akin to Gotham shenanigans.

    On that note, I'm very curious to see how WB Montreal deals with Jason in Gotham Knights regarding his background. I honestly don't think they'll do anything with the All-Caste, for they might want to streamline his story a bit and focus on the Lazarus Pit, his League of Shadows connection and this universe's version of the UtRH (I assume). Although I'm bummed about the fact that you can play the whole game with any of them because that'll probably limit the amount of unique, nuance stuff they could do for every character, I'm still very excited to see how he's portrayed, especially in what I assume will be predefined conversations while in the Belfry with Tim, Dick, Barbara and Alfred.

    Also regarding games, I found AK's Jason to be exceedingly whiny, as understandable as that was, and the story to be a watered down, unnecessary take on UtRH, all for the sake of a twist that everybody saw coming a mile away. I did love how he started to progressively break down during his confrontation with Bruce, though. Also, his Transformers guns

    Quote Originally Posted by magpieM View Post
    I agree. The "suit man (Solitary) " clue was planted at the very beginning of the Rebirth series and had become a regular "teasing element" as the story went on. I can't remember how many discussions / interpretations were made in RH appreciation thread and monthly issue post. I really miss this period of time.

    But I think the rush-off of the Solitary encounter soon after Jason went solo was a result of Lex Luthor - Leviathan story interference from editorial side. Then this "suit man" line had to be quickly dropped. Then it was patched up by a Wingman who suddenly came out from nowhere without revealing his ture identity. Meanwhile Jason just happened to be not interested enough to know who this guy is...... It's really sad for me to watch this whole "suit man" storyline ending in this weird way after years of expectation. I hate those story cross-over and editorial mandate.
    Yeah, something definitely happened because I can't believe that was the original plan. I honestly can't recollect my thoughts regarding that storyline as it was being teased. I assume I was curious or even excited to see who it was, but yeah. This plotline would have been even more rushed and unclear in its goals, but I honestly would have closed it off there (repurpose it to have Willis dead for good) and not with Wingman being revealed as Jason's dad.
    Last edited by CorDaytona; 01-06-2021 at 11:43 AM.

  9. #69
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    I hope that - after Zdarsky's six-issue-story in Batman: Urban Legends is over - Jason will get a solo run with a creative team that wants to push the character forward (Personally, I don't think Zdarsky is going to stay. There is a rumor that he's going to write something Justice League related). When they have proven to have a good grasp of the character, then they can make changes to/"clarify" details about Jason's past, not before. But in general, I agree that Lost Days and All-Caste can be mixed together in a meaningful way to benefit from both stories. Whether All-Caste happened before UtRH or after - or maybe even started before UtRH and ended after UtRH - is up to the future long-term writer and isn't something I would consider highest priority for Jason.
    Last edited by Sergard; 01-06-2021 at 02:19 PM.

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    Honestly the entire thing is good.

    Also, 'stumbling' into them or not, being put into situations where one is faced with making a decision is a great part of building character, as well as how they go about their decision. Jason doing good deeds is exactly what helps to establish his morals for the audience and shows us who he is, as opposed to the dialogue from characters telling us who he is in the book. Also most if not all the good deeds he acts upon in the book is entirely of his own volition, not something he is encouraged to do. He is presented in the book (by Talia and her goon) as sociopathic, a disorder which includes individuals having little regard for their own safety of the safety of others, yet all throughout Lost Days we see that isn't the case.

    I'll give an example, in Lost Days #3, Jason doesn't just 'stumble' across information, he is aware of his surroundings and he suspects Egon, his then teacher, is hiding something and does what any good detective does, he snoops, and ends up finding out that Egon is selling children. He then plans ahead so that even before physically confronting Egon, he ensures that he poisons Egons drink and automatically gives himself the upper hand in the confrontation. After would he drops the kids off at a British Embassy and burns all evidence of his existence there.

    Jason is ultimately confronted with a moral dilemma, the first one in the series that really breaks away from the perceived image of him as a sociopathic character thus far. Jason finds out about these kids, and regardless of whether you consider it to be morally reasonable or not, that surely any heroic character would help, at this point in the story Jason has very much only served himself and is a villain so this is a situation he could very well ignore, it's not his problem, it's not beneficial to his plans. But he still actively chooses to save the children, their situation clearly goes against his morals. He chooses not to just hand Egon over to authorities and escape, but to kill him him for his crimes, despite the fact that he is losing a valuable resource in the form of a mentor. Just from that, we as an audience understand and confirm that Jason does have limits, that he does have moral lines, that he won't allow criminals of that calibre to simply walk away in cuffs either, that he will use lethal measures against them and he is tactical about it. Also that he is inquisitive, he is not just training and moving on, we see that throughout the series, if something else is happening that might go against his morals, he wants to know and be sure. And yes, he doesn't have loyalty to his mentor, he will gladly train alongside someone till he finds particular skeletons in their closet and then get rid of them.

    Even the way he goes about killing Egon shows that Jason isn't a particularly noble character, he will 'cheat' if it means winning in the end and he isn't fussed about it, he is not particularly prideful or egotistical. He then burns all evidence of his existence there to cover his tracks. This isn't a rash decision he is making, it's very much calculated. And as an added bonus, Jason also has conversations with Talia in Lost Days about his training, and Talia at first questions his decision, this wasn't something she necessarily put Jason out to do, even if she later on shows some signs of approval. In their conversation, the one that appears after he kills Egon, it shows Jason rationalising Egons death by stating that he didn't 'murder' him, that you can only murder people. Again, that is telling us that for Jason he can easily justify the deaths of people he takes down by dehumanising them.

    All this insight coming from a moral dilemma from where Jason has to actively make a choice, and of course chooses to help and to kill with no hesitation. From this sequence alone we're given plenty of information about Jason, and how he acts and reacts to the situations around him and how it defines his character.

    Compare that with say, the flashback intro sequence in Red Hood Outlaw #34 which sets up a situation where Jason also comes across children he must save from a 'monster' as part of his All-Caste trials. But notice that despite the fact that the same goal is being achieved here, Jason isn't making any moral decision. There is no dilemma presented to him to see how he will react and whether or not he will do the right thing. Now yes, of course he is doing the more traditionally heroic thing and rescuing children from a monster, that's a brave act, but it isn't an active decision to save the children or a decision made entirely just for their sake since it's undercut by the fact that this is simply part of his trials. There's no moral quandary here or anything to indicate that Jason doing the right thing would not be beneficial to him either, to the contrary, Jason defeating the creature is very much beneficial to him since it also saves his life, also seals his place as an All-Caste member and is a task set up and supported by his mentor Ducra. The only thing we can take from this is that Jason is good at fighting since he does defeat the monster, but do we learn anything about his personality or character other then him being 'a smart talking badass' and able to take on monsters in training. Not really.

    To be clear, I'm not stating that these moments are entirely comparable, this is not a 1 to 1 comparison, and there's nothing inherently wrong with the Red Hood # 34 sequence, I'm just using it as an easy way to point out why Lost Days is a good character study by showing just how much information that series provides to the audience about Jasons character based on the situations it throws at him, especially when compared to a more regular comic scene like #34. Regardless of whether or not you care for this characterisation of Jason in Lost Days is irrelevant, the story is still great at giving a lot of information about it's protagonist in such a short amount of time.


    On a side note though, frankly the majority of Jason's scenes with the All-Caste really do provide little to no insight into his character other than he is stubborn, angry, has little to no respect for authority figures from the get go, and is very much focused on his own goals. Which is all information that is also provided in Lost Days anyway. Otherwise the "see how badass Jason is. He's a tough guy that doesn't care for anything" criticism you hold for Lost Days could very well easily be applied to the majority of the All-Caste training stuff. Where Jason can be broken down to basically just a 'chosen one badass who acts all nonchalant about his abilities and doesn't care for anything'. Now I'm not claiming that to be the case at all, just pointing out that this statement is a very broad simplification that can be applied to both backstories if you try hard enough to look over or brush aside all the developments in both stories.

    In absolute fairness, I don't really think the All-Caste stories were intended to be a character study like Lost Days, most of the All-Caste training seemed to be focused on developing some aspects of the lore and Jasons abilities, most aspects of Jasons positive influence with Ducra seem to appear after the training and after he leaves and turns his back on her. There's only one particular sequence that sticks out as actually providing the audience with character insight and that's in the Red Hood Outlaw #45 intro flashback sequence with Jason and Ducra, where he takes it upon himself to try and rescue Essence despite Ducras warnings. There is an actual moral quandary and one that helps define Jasons character. Similar to Lost Days I might add, Jason is faced with a dilemma, where his morals are not aligning with his mentor, where he is faced with a decision, one that is not benefitting him or his situation but still compels him to act upon it and helps define him better for the audience. Because despite the fact that his mentor is against the decision, despite the fact that it goes against All-Caste rules/traditions, despite the fact that he knows he may very well die or be trapped with Essence at whatever her final trial is, he is still making an active decision to try and save her, and he does it with a smile on his face. It's a short but nice sequence that helps to show the kind of morals Jason has, the kind of risks he will take for others, and the kind of attitude he will do it all with.
    Damn, maybe i should finally get around reading Lost Days.
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  11. #71
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    I hope that - after Zdarsky's six-issue-story in Batman: Urban Legends is over - Jason will get a solo run with a creative team that wants to push the character forward (Personally, I don't think Zdarsky is going to stay. There is a rumor that he's going to write something Justice League related). When they have proven to have a good grasp of the character, then they can make changes to/"clarify" details about Jason's past, not before. But in general, I agree that Lost Days and All-Caste can be mixed together in a meaningful way to benefit from both stories. Whether All-Caste happened before UtRH or after - or maybe even started before UtRH and ended after UtRH - is up to the future long-term writer and isn't something I would consider highest priority for Jason.
    I'd be ecstatic if it was Zdarsky, but also very surprised, yeah. Red Hood seems to be a very low profile character for him, considering how hot his name currently is among writers.

    I'm not at peace with the fact that Jason doesn't have a solo confirmed, but I'm relatively confident that it might happen after his Urban Legends story ends (among other reasons, that Tynion interview). If not, well, I'd be dissapointed, but at least he's got it way better than other Gotham characters and will probably show up often enough.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    I hope that - after Zdarsky's six-issue-story in Batman: Urban Legends is over - Jason will get a solo run with a creative team that wants to push the character forward (Personally, I don't think Zdarsky is going to stay. There is a rumor that he's going to write something Justice League related). When they have proven to have a good grasp of the character, then they can make changes to/"clarify" details about Jason's past, not before. But in general, I agree that Lost Days and All-Caste can be mixed together in a meaningful way to benefit from both stories. Whether All-Caste happened before UtRH or after - or maybe even started before UtRH and ended after UtRH - is up to the future long-term writer and isn't something I would consider highest priority for Jason.
    Damn! Would have loved Zdarsky on a Red Hood solo. But Zdarsky is probably to big to only write RH...

    Just hope RH gets his solo back with good writer who believes and knows the character.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
    Damn! Would have loved Zdarsky on a Red Hood solo. But Zdarsky is probably to big to only write RH...

    Just hope RH gets his solo back with good writer who believes and knows the character.
    You can get a bigger writer to write a RH book, they just have to give the writer more freedom to write Jason. Like allow him to be written with more moral ambiguity, like Deathstroke or Punisher. Let him not be beholden to Bruce's way or care about what the Bat Family thinks. Let him be a bigger deal in the DC universe, like Dick and Wally are. I personally say let him be the leader of the League, and thus a major player.

    As long as he's kept fringe af, and not allowed to do anything of consequence, there'll be very few big authors that care to take on the character.

  14. #74
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Damn, maybe i should finally get around reading Lost Days.
    You should. It's a bit too, hum, not edgy but... something around those lines, for my tastes a few times. But it's a nice read (well, an interesting read), and you can get a lot of the character he was around Under the Hood (by the same writer) from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    You can get a bigger writer to write a RH book, they just have to give the writer more freedom to write Jason. Like allow him to be written with more moral ambiguity, like Deathstroke or Punisher. Let him not be beholden to Bruce's way or care about what the Bat Family thinks. Let him be a bigger deal in the DC universe, like Dick and Wally are. I personally say let him be the leader of the League, and thus a major player.

    As long as he's kept fringe af, and not allowed to do anything of consequence, there'll be very few big authors that care to take on the character.
    Frank's and Slade's morals aren't ambiguous at all They have very clear morals. Now, are those morals good? Probably not, most of the time at least. But clear they are. Jason's morals are crystal clear too. They are rather different than those two, also; especially Slade's.

    I don't mean to sound tiresome, but, come on. Comparing Fran's and Jason's, ok; I can see it, yeah. But Slade is nowhere near Jason. He's a selfish man, he is moved by his own interests, and he can do anything to achieve his goals (which are personal gain of various kinds, being material or emotional), anything. Anything.

    (I hope these words don't come across as aggressive, or insulting or. I know Slade can do good, but, he's how he is. Most of the time, anyways)
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-06-2021 at 06:20 PM. Reason: egotistical isn't egoísta, damn it, brain of mine!
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  15. #75
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    You should. It's a bit too, hum, not edgy but... something around those lines, for my tastes a few times. But it's a nice read (well, an interesting read), and you can get a lot of the character he was around Under the Hood (by the same writer) from it.



    Frank's and Slade's morals aren't ambiguous at all They have very clear morals. Now, are those morals good? Probably not, most of the time at least. But clear they are. Jason's morals are crystal clear too. They are rather different than those two, also; especially Slade's.

    I don't mean to sound tiresome, but, come on. Comparing Fran's and Jason's, ok; I can see it, yeah. But Slade is nowhere near Jason. He's a selfish man, he is moved by his own interests, and he can do anything to achieve his goals (which are personal gain of various kinds, being material or emotional), anything. Anything.

    (I hope these words don't come across as aggressive, or insulting or. I know Slade can do good, but, he's how he is. Most of the time, anyways)
    No offense taken, lol.

    When I say morally ambiguous, I mean not obviously a hero. A very clear anti-hero, who's not afraid to be that in front of other heroes and, most importantly, the Bat Family. Like he's very much willing to work with a Waller or Lex to do what he needs to do. That's the aspect of those guys that I meant, in that he's steady and doesn't falter before his peers. Not saying he should just slaughter everyone, like Frank, or be completely self-serving, like Slade, because, honestly, he's more nuanced than those characters. He's got the mind, experience and the skill to engage with and defend himself from anyone, and should operate like that.

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