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  1. #871
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why Jason should care whether they live or die. The guy kills and shot Gotham criminals left and right.

    As for the series, I guess it was only a matter of time before they decided to put Jason on SS book. I will wait for the first issue to see whether the book is worth it or not.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
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  2. #872
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    I'm not sure why Jason should care whether they live or die. The guy kills and shot Gotham criminals left and right.
    Because he needs to be better. Because this is just once again, selling UtRH Jason for the nth time.

  3. #873
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    He needs to (after all, I already said multiple times before that I want Jason to stop killing), but he currently isn't. This isn't "a new low" for him to be surprised and upset by it.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
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  4. #874
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    I'm not sure why Jason should care whether they live or die. The guy kills and shot Gotham criminals left and right.

    As for the series, I guess it was only a matter of time before they decided to put Jason on SS book. I will wait for the first issue to see whether the book is worth it or not.
    Because some of them are still good people and don't deserve to die (especially Harley Quinn and Killer Croc). Jason shouldn't be a character without morals or emotions. Jason befriending ex-enemies in RHatO like Suzie Su, Crux, Ma Gunn and Joker's daughter was one of my favorite character developments.

    How is Jason supposed to get "better" when writers don't let him?

  5. #875
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    As far as I'm concerned, Harley isn't a "good" person because she never really redeemed herself nor DC ever bothered to acknowledge her bad actions. Not sure about Killer Croc nor I care (tho, considering that in his debut issue he brutally killed Jason's parents, I think it's fitting for him not to care about him).

    And you might have missed, but this is a black label book (which means it's not canon unless stated otherwis) by Azzarello nonetheless. This isn't the book that one would expect for Jason to be better.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
    – Dale Carnegie

  6. #876
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, Harley isn't a "good" person because she never really redeemed herself nor DC ever bothered to acknowledge her bad actions. Not sure about Killer Croc nor I care (tho, considering that in his debut issue he brutally killed Jason's parents, I think it's fitting for him not to care about him).

    And you might have missed, but this is a black label book (which means it's not canon unless stated otherwis) by Azzarello nonetheless. This isn't the book that one would expect for Jason to be better.
    Different Jason for that debut though. And that whole background was erased anyway.

    But the only people Jason really goes after are the Untitled (obviously), drug dealers who target kids (though, I can see both sides to that story), and people like a certain diplomat's son...

    But Jason having such tunnel vision to not care about anything else BUT killing Joker, just rings hollow and shallow. And while he would probably be one of the first to celebrate Joker's death, its never been his #1 priority.

  7. #877
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Jason had brutally killed a gang in issue 26 that weren't exactly under the categories you mentioned. Not to mention the countless nameless henchmen he killed that weren't any of that.

    And the series has Joker in the title and the premise is all about hunting him down, so obviously it will have Jason mainly focusing on him and not caring about bunch of criminals he would have killed anyway if they weren't "big name" or "at least named" villains. Jason isn't above this and hasn't been in a long time.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
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  8. #878
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Jason had brutally killed a gang in issue 26 that weren't exactly under the categories you mentioned. Not to mention the countless nameless henchmen he killed that weren't any of that.

    And the series has Joker in the title and the premise is all about hunting him down, so obviously it will have Jason mainly focusing on him and not caring about bunch of criminals he would have killed anyway if they weren't "big name" or "at least named" villains. Jason isn't above this and hasn't been in a long time.
    My problem is with Jason being apparently fine with people being killed because whatever, why not. It's so uncaring, I don't see him being like that, to be honest. Also, it sounds awfully edgy. I know Azzarello is like that, but usually his writing has some style, unlike that overly dramatic summary. What he did to that gang was for a reason, and with a feeling driving action behind. It's not brutal violence for the sake of violence. But not caring about if the people you command gets killed or not, eh, it just doesn't sound right to me. A different thing would be if these people attacked him or were after him: then yeah, I can see Jason being indifferent about them being killed.

    I'm fine with them going after the Joker (again). It's just a story, in an alternate universe. Could be good, could be not. Well, whatever, we will see. I've enjoyed many works of Azzarello, could enjoy this one.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 05-24-2021 at 04:44 PM.
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  9. #879
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    The team is called suicide squad . Whoever the leader of this group isn't tasked with keeping the team alive nor they supposed to. Their only job is to make sure that the mission is accomplished so they can gain their freedom (and Jason had once killed bunch of criminals to get himself free out of Arkham, so as I said before, Jason isn't above this).

    There still could be a twist where Jason would try to save or protect the team (or one of them). It wouldn't be out of character whether he let them die or save them.
    Last edited by Rise; 05-24-2021 at 04:34 PM.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
    – Dale Carnegie

  10. #880
    Astonishing Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Interesting, I've had a theory about how this story might end ever since it was first announced and honestly this description has only added to it.

    But basically if this story is anything like the classic 1971 crime film 'Get Carter', then my guess is that most likely it will end (major spoilers for film ending) spoilers:
    with Jason accomplishing his mission and killing the Joker, and in his moment of celebration for his revenge and victory, he'll also be killed by one of the other characters, most likely by Harley or Waller, though I'm leaning towards Harley due to her history with Joker plus her character being shrouded in darkness compared to the other characters in the preview, as though there's something she's hiding. Or maybe considering both she and Jason are the only characters shrouded in darkness in that panel, that's a visual cue to imply that they have something in common, and maybe the writing will actually surprise us by not having the girl who clearly loved the Joker be the one to betray, and maybe it'll be Waller killing Jason to clean up loose strings, or even another Suicide Squad member.

    Regardless, the point is that the original story of 'Get Carter' ended with the main character (Carter) on a beach, finally killing the man he had been hunting down, beating the man to death with a shotgun, and achieving his revenge, and just as he is about to throw his weapon away into the ocean and finally end this chapter of his life, he is shot and immediately killed by basically a random sniper side character seen earlier in the film. It's a dour yet unceremonious ending as the final scene is of the main character lying dead on a beach as the waves lap around him. It's very much a 'Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves' kind of story, and considering Batman Damned also ended with a sort of 'oh no I guess the main characters efforts were all for nothing', kind of irony, this seems like a fitting ending and something Azzarello might write. It could also be reversed, that Jason is the one killed and Joker is later gunned down by Harley or something, since the character of 'Carter' was actually the main character in the story, not the guy he was after like in this story (Get Joker), but considering this solicitation is confirming that Jason is on a path of revenge, I think it's the first guess and that he will be the one killing Joker before being killed as well.
    end of spoilers

    Anyways, that's just my guess, this theory could be 100% off base, but whether it is or isn't I'm still curious to see how the story unfolds. Personally speaking, a good portion of the Black Label line has been quite enjoyable thus far.
    Last edited by RedBird; 05-24-2021 at 08:57 PM.

  11. #881
    Astonishing Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    The team is called suicide squad . Whoever the leader of this group isn't tasked with keeping the team alive nor they supposed to. Their only job is to make sure that the mission is accomplished so they can gain their freedom (and Jason had once killed bunch of criminals to get himself free out of Arkham, so as I said before, Jason isn't above this).

    There still could be a twist where Jason would try to save or protect the team (or one of them). It wouldn't be out of character whether he let them die or save them.
    Pretty much.

    Besides, as far as collateral damage goes, these aren't innocent civilians, they are Suicide Squad members, and they are most likely there for a reason. Yeah, Jason could try to keep them alive, but I could also see that he wouldn't shed a tear for the death of any other deranged killer, if anything, depending on how they are all characterised, their deaths could just be a perk. Or, their deaths could be a sign of the 'destructive path revenge takes us on' etc.

    Anyways, we don't have much content or context yet, but so far going by just this solicitation, this description alone isn't necessarily OOC, especially considering this is an out of continuity title anyway, so the idea of using a more past version of Jason's characterisation is feasible, for better or worse. That said, I can understand not wanting to read yet another 'vengeful Jason' storyline, that's absolutely fair.

  12. #882
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Well, alt cont story, it's a fair count.

    I guess all of them are fair. Doesn't mean I have to like them.

    Time will tell if I end liking this one or not.
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  13. #883
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, Harley isn't a "good" person because she never really redeemed herself nor DC ever bothered to acknowledge her bad actions. Not sure about Killer Croc nor I care (tho, considering that in his debut issue he brutally killed Jason's parents, I think it's fitting for him not to care about him).

    And you might have missed, but this is a black label book (which means it's not canon unless stated otherwis) by Azzarello nonetheless. This isn't the book that one would expect for Jason to be better.
    Harley is the biggest redemption character DC has. If she doesn't count, what chances does Jason have?

    In this case I consider black label irrelevant. Jason's main-continuity story isn't any different: Jason kills somebody. And before that we had Three Jokers with the same thing. Around the same time, Batman: The Adventures Continue came out with Jason killing people.

    It's very telling that the first thing writers want to write, is Jason killing people. How is Jason ever supposed to move on as a character if every new writer resets him back to square one?

  14. #884
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    DC and her fans pretending that Harley is a victim which somewho is supposed to excuse all her actions isn't what one call "redemption" (she was a fully grown up woman who was completely aware what kind of man the joker was and still decided out of her own free will to follow him. she wasn't a victim, she was just a pathetic and terrible person).

    Jason didn't have any genuine attempts at redemption and the closest thing he got was ironically by Morrison which still was more than Harley's so called redemption.

    And Jason never stopped killing in the main continuity to say that the writers keep returning to sequare one. He only stopped few times because Batman "told him to" or when he wanted to be a good example to the person he is charge of, but it was never because he genuinely wanted to stop and be better than this.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
    – Dale Carnegie

  15. #885
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    DC and her fans pretending that Harley is a victim which somehow is supposed to excuse all her actions isn't what one call "redemption" (she was a fully grown up woman who was completely aware what kind of man the joker was and still decided out of her own free will to follow him. she wasn't a victim, she was just a pathetic and terrible person).

    Jason didn't have any genuine attempts at redemption and the closest thing he got was ironically by Morrison which still was more than Harley's so called redemption.

    And Jason never stopped killing in the main continuity to say that the writers keep returning to square one. He only stopped few times because Batman "told him to" or when he wanted to be a good example to the person he is charge of, but it was never because he genuinely wanted to stop and be better than this.
    Harley Quinn has done enough Suicide Squad missions to receive an official pardon - that's good enough for me and more than anything Jason was ever allowed to accomplish. Furthermore, Harley's case is far less severe than Jason's. If other characters in the DC universe can't forgive and accept that Harley has done enough to redeem herself, how is Jason supposed to ever achieve that status?

    Writers could have used Batman "told him to" or wanted to be a good example to the person he is in charge of as a base and change Jason's worldview in a better direction without resorting to Jason killing/wanting to kill somebody. Jason being obsessed with Barbara/Joker or Batman breathing down his neck won't lead to any genuine attempts at redemption.

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