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  1. #76
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    No offense taken, lol.

    When I say morally ambiguous, I mean not obviously a hero. A very clear anti-hero, who's not afraid to be that in front of other heroes and, most importantly, the Bat Family. Like he's very much willing to work with a Waller or Lex to do what he needs to do. That's the aspect of those guys that I meant, in that he's steady and doesn't falter before his peers. Not saying he should just slaughter everyone, like Frank, or be completely self-serving, like Slade, because, honestly, he's more nuanced than those characters. He's got the mind, experience and the skill to engage with and defend himself from anyone, and should operate like that.
    Oh, I see. My apologies, I understood ambiguous as unclear. Edit: or changing".

    Yeah. Jason can play really dirty and it's very practical, so I see what you mean by that now. I think he also doesn't mind playing the bad guy, or more like he thinks it's worth the pain, I guess, which is something that helps his anti-heric take. And, well, I do think he cares about how others see him, but again, he thinks he has to do whatever he has to do, and that's more important. Or at least half the time is like that. I think it's something that varies from writer to writer a lot. So, well... I guess he sometimes doesn't care and sometimes he cares, hmmm. But he often seemingly doesn't care.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-06-2021 at 07:29 PM.
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  2. #77
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Oh, I see. My apologies, I understood ambiguous as unclear. Edit: or changjng.

    Yeah. Jason can play really dirty and it's very practical, so I see what you mean by that now. I think he also doesn't mind playing the bad guy, or more like he thinks it's worth the pain, I guess, which is something that helps his anti-heric take. And, well, I do think he cares about how others see him, but again, he thinks he has to do whatever he has to do, and that's more important. Or at least half the time is like that. I think it's something that varies from writer to writer a lot. So, well... I guess he sometimes doesn't care and sometimes he cares, hmmm. But he often seemingly doesn't care.
    They just need to get him a writer with enough clout to make his new characterization be respected across the DC line of writers. Warren Ellis, Remender, Priest, Brubaker, etc. The editors just have to be willing to let him be written as a major player, and such writers would be interested.

  3. #78
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    Hopefully Zdarsky is gonna place Red Hood in a good place for a good storyline after Urban Legends, so a good writer could come and pick the ball from the ground and run with it on a RH solo.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
    Hopefully Zdarsky is gonna place Red Hood in a good place for a good storyline after Urban Legends, so a good writer could come and pick the ball from the ground and run with it on a RH solo.
    Can only hope. Hopefully that place is off the streets of Gotham. It's getting stupidly crowded there.

  5. #80
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
    Hopefully Zdarsky is gonna place Red Hood in a good place for a good storyline after Urban Legends, so a good writer could come and pick the ball from the ground and run with it on a RH solo.
    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    Can only hope. Hopefully that place is off the streets of Gotham. It's getting stupidly crowded there.
    Yeah, for the longest I've wanted him to be out of Gotham full time. Preferably outside of America to see the European, Asian, African... side of things superhero/supervillain/crime-related. Like have him establish his operations in other countries, helping the crimefighters there.

    His Urban Legends premise says this: "Renegade vigilante Jason Todd, a.k.a. Red Hood, is investigating a new and lethal drug sweeping through Gotham City. In the course of one night, this investigation will change his life forever—and put him in Batman’s crosshairs".

    But those are mostly hyperbolic words to sell the story. Still, I expect a change in his status quo. It's not like he's not wandering aimlessly right now, returning to Gotham so as to find out who he wants to be.
    Last edited by CorDaytona; 01-07-2021 at 05:25 AM.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    I hope that - after Zdarsky's six-issue-story in Batman: Urban Legends is over - Jason will get a solo run with a creative team that wants to push the character forward (Personally, I don't think Zdarsky is going to stay. There is a rumor that he's going to write something Justice League related).
    Same here, with the whole slower relaunches happening, I'm hoping that whilst this mini series in Urban Legends is released over the course of six months, that it will basically just give DC plenty of time to find a new creative team for the character and provide a more distinctive relaunch for a Red Hood title.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    And no, I don't think All-Caste work well with lost days. The idea itself isn't bad (I actually like it), but I would instead have it post UTRH (the period that actually needed fixing which for unexplained reasons to me, Lobdell refused to do anything about it) where he was found and rescued by All-Caste after a mission went wrong. I would have Ducra (his only wise mentor) be the reason for Jason becoming chill after UTRH and why he accepted Kory and Roy.
    Also whoops, Rise, I completely missed your comment about setting the All-Caste after UTRH before I had posted about that idea as well, my bad. Great minds think alike though, huh?

  7. #82
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    (@TooFlyToFail: Sorry for the lengthy post. I know I disagree with you a lot but please don't take anything about this personal. Any negativity in my post isn't directed towards your post but the state of the DC universe and how DC and their writers handle things. I'm also aware that I often remark that I dislike a lot of things and I swear, normally I'm not that kind of person who dislikes everything but the DC universe is a singularity in that aspect.)

    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    You can get a bigger writer to write a RH book, they just have to give the writer more freedom to write Jason.
    Personally, I don't necessarily need a bigger writer (Who are the biggest writers at DC right now? Snyder, Tynion, King and Taylor? I don't like a single one of them.) - foremost, I want a good writer that is passionate about the character. Like Dexter Soy is as an artist. Even big writers start small until they create their success story/run. But having the freedom to write the character is a very important part and I hope that Jason's next writer is really allowed to have this freedom.
    Like allow him to be written with more moral ambiguity, like Deathstroke or Punisher. Let him not be beholden to Bruce's way or care about what the Bat Family thinks.
    Honestly, I truly believe that Jason as a character isn't that hard to write. He just needs to get away from the bats + their associates. This also includes no more "guest" appearances in their books. He would only be used as a OOC prop anyway. The new writer shouldn't have to face interferences by other writers that contradict or undermine their take on the character.

    Let him be a bigger deal in the DC universe, like Dick and Wally are. I personally say let him be the leader of the League, and thus a major player.

    As long as he's kept fringe af, and not allowed to do anything of consequence, there'll be very few big authors that care to take on the character.
    Here is the thing: I prefer fringe characters or more precisely self-contained characters. I want to read about characters I like without being bombarded with 80 years of DC history that I’ve zero interest in or even partly straight out dislike. The same way I hated all the tie-ins and most influences by other titles in the Outlaws runs, I wouldn't want something in Jason's story to be the reason why another title gets sabotaged. All characters should be treated fairly. Jason - and this is a general rule I wish DC would follow for literally every character - should be a major player within his own sphere but not outside. And of course, Jason should do things of consequence - but within his own sphere. (And no, Jason should not be part of Batman’s sphere. Batman’s sphere is already too big.)

    Currently Jason’s sphere is very small but it’s up to the new writer to use what’s already there (and there were some OCs with great potential in the past runs: the All-Caste, Generation Outlaws, Dog, Isabel, the Su sisters, Tara Battleworth, FBI agent Melissa Mitchell, Crux) and to make the sphere bigger.

    I’m not a fan of the mindset that a character needs to be a "bigger deal", a "major player" or the leader of some prominent group (DC also tends to over-exaggerate the importance of the leader position, in my honest opinion, while underselling other positions in a team) in the DC universe as a whole. The DC universe has probably hundreds of heroes. Should all of them lead the Justice League? This can’t be the solution. DC went the completely wrong way when they created this hierarchy-thinking with a few heroes on the top – with Batman currently overshadowing everyone else – and others on the bottom. All these talks about “pillars”, “A-list heroes” and rankings (who’s the strongest, smartest, fastest, etc.) is just a gigantic pile of rubbish that completely destroys the core essence of heroism – people trying to make the world a better place. Instead we have a competition who’s the biggest power fantasy, who’s the biggest Mary Sue, who has the biggest c*ck, figuratively speaking.

    Also, I don’t really like the Justice League for several reasons. Dick and Wally’s generation neither. Although that’s getting off-topic. But there’s the general problem that there’s the Justice League and then there are Justice League lite versions in the other generations with Titans, Young Justice and Teen Titans – and everything is just mush because everything feels the same. I’d rather read Suicide Squad, Doom Patrol or the Authority because they bring their own flavor to the table.
    Last edited by Sergard; 01-09-2021 at 02:37 AM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    Honestly, I truly believe that Jason as a character isn't that hard to write. He just needs to get away from the bats + their associates. This also includes no more "guest" appearances in their books. He would only be used as a OOC prop anyway. The new writer shouldn't have to face interferences by other writers that contradict or undermine their take on the character.
    I don't mind those but the writers need imo to find a better way to handle Jason in these stories.

    I mean if they can handle characters like Damian, Clownhunter, Harley Quinn (and countless others Darker that are not playing by Bruces rules) in these stories, why is almost every appearance by Jason in other Batman books that terrible?
    Even in stories like DCeased or Injustice, where they didn't really had any of the usual restrictions with regards to killing and with hardly any of the other Bat characters around, he was poorly treated.
    Last edited by Aahz; 01-09-2021 at 03:30 AM.

  9. #84
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    The big negative point in having Jason as a constant guest in these stories (apart from what Sergard said) is his book's storyline being affected by that somehow. Like the whole Joker War thing, most recently. I didn't terribly mind since I wasn't very invested in whatever the last arc was, but it was stupid. But that's DC continuity for you, I don't know if things are gonna get more flexible or not now.

    Now, there could be some good uses for him (like when the Batfamily is talking about what to do with Batwoman) and I guess that him appearing in more popular series can boost his popularity and recognizability, which is good in the long run.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorDaytona View Post
    The big negative point in having Jason as a constant guest in these stories (apart from what Sergard said) is his book's storyline being affected by that somehow. Like the whole Joker War thing, most recently.
    Affected how?

    Joker War was single Tie in issue, that was iirc even set before the arc that was going on in currently in RHatO and didn't affect that stoy at all (apart from interrupting it for one issue).

    The only effect it had out side of this issue was to bring Jokers daughter back for Lobedell's final arc, and that was probably something Lobedell wanted to do.


    Honestly I think off all the Batfamily books Nightwing is the only one where tie ins and cross overs had really big influences on the book going forward. And I think in many cases writers or editors just use the events to achieve a status quo change, they might have wanted anyway.
    Damians deaths and Dick having his identity revealed in Forever Evil and being shot in the head in Kings Batman, are afaik the only really examples where something happend that was outside of the control of their writers.

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    (@TooFlyToFail: Sorry for the lengthy post. I know I disagree with you a lot but please don't take anything about this personal. Any negativity in my post isn't directed towards your post but the state of the DC universe and how DC and their writers handle things. I'm also aware that I often remark that I dislike a lot of things and I swear, normally I'm not that kind of person who dislikes everything but the DC universe is a singularity in that aspect.)



    Personally, I don't necessarily need a bigger writer (Who are the biggest writers at DC right now? Snyder, Tynion, King and Taylor? I don't like a single one of them.) - foremost, I want a good writer that is passionate about the character. Like Dexter Soy is as an artist. Even big writers start small until they create their success story/run. But having the freedom to write the character is a very important part and I hope that Jason's next writer is really allowed to have this freedom.


    Honestly, I truly believe that Jason as a character isn't that hard to write. He just needs to get away from the bats + their associates. This also includes no more "guest" appearances in their books. He would only be used as a OOC prop anyway. The new writer shouldn't have to face interferences by other writers that contradict or undermine their take on the character.



    Here is the thing: I prefer fringe characters or more precisely self-contained characters. I want to read about characters I like without being bombarded with 80 years of DC history that I’ve zero interest in or even partly straight out dislike. The same way I hated all the tie-ins and most influences by other titles in the Outlaws runs, I wouldn't want something in Jason's story to be the reason why another title gets sabotaged. All characters should be treated fairly. Jason - and this is a general rule I wish DC would follow for literally every character - should be a major player within his own sphere but not outside. And of course, Jason should do things of consequence - but within his own sphere. (And no, Jason should not be part of Batman’s sphere. Batman’s sphere is already too big.)

    Currently Jason’s sphere is very small but it’s up to the new writer to use what’s already there (and there were some OCs with great potential in the past runs: the All-Caste, Generation Outlaws, Dog, Isabel, the Su sisters, Tara Battleworth, FBI agent Melissa Mitchell, Crux) and to make the sphere bigger.

    I’m not a fan of the mindset that a character needs to be a "bigger deal", a "major player" or the leader of some prominent group (DC also tends to over-exaggerate the importance of the leader position, in my honest opinion, while underselling other positions in a team) in the DC universe as a whole. The DC universe has probably hundreds of heroes. Should all of them lead the Justice League? This can’t be the solution. DC went the completely wrong way when they created this hierarchy-thinking with a few heroes on the top – with Batman currently overshadowing everyone else – and others on the bottom. All these talks about “pillars”, “A-list heroes” and rankings (who’s the strongest, smartest, fastest, etc.) is just a gigantic pile of rubbish that completely destroys the core essence of heroism – people trying to make the world a better place. Instead we have a competition who’s the biggest power fantasy, who’s the biggest Mary Sue, who has the biggest c*ck, figuratively speaking.

    Also, I don’t really like the Justice League for several reasons. Dick and Wally’s generation neither. Although that’s getting off-topic. But there’s the general problem that there’s the Justice League and then there are Justice League lite versions in the other generations with Titans, Young Justice and Teen Titans – and everything is just mush because everything feels the same. I’d rather read Suicide Squad, Doom Patrol or the Authority because they bring their own flavor to the table.
    No offense taken lol. I do get where you're coming from, but I feel I should clarify a few of my points:

    1) When I said big writer, I don't mean the big mainstream ones. I mean prestige writers and/or writers with a larger footprint in general, like they've done good indie stuff too. I'd pick people like Remender, Warren Ellis, Priest, Brubaker, Lemire, or Cullen Bunn. They can do grander stories, but not lose sight of the plot and the characters...something I felt Lobdell did. Everything builds gradually, even when the story is fast paced, and everything makes sense and is given breathing room with them. Also, they have great dialogue and I feel they'd be perfect for capturing Jason's voice.

    When it comes to artist, I'd prefer artists like Matteo Scalera, Wes Craig, Declan Shalvey, Greg Smallwood, or Nick Dragotta. The bolded can really do great action scenes.

    2) I do want him less involved with his family as well, but that's not the real issue. He just needs to be written as his own man, who doesn't bend the knee to said Bat Family. He stays calm and will do what needs to be done, based on his own assessment of the situation. He's the second most skilled and powerful member of the family, and he should operate as such. He's not going to slaughter everyone (like Punisher) or be selfish (like Slade), but he'll be a nuanced peer to the rest of his family. Like Damian bringing up a crowbar isn't something that would face him, for once.

    3) When I said League, I mean the League of Assassins. That would keep him out of the mainstream stuff, but still make him a major player in the DC universe to be the new head of the LoA. He could be doing a favor for Talia, but ends up wrapped up in an internal conflict that ends with him as the leader, with Talia, Shiva, Essence and Bronze Tiger as his council. Have him try to reform the league, but things are far more complex, and he works with people like Waller, Slade, and Lex. He could have conflicts with the Court of Owls, Order of St Dumas, League of Shadows, Vander Savage, R'as, and then, eventually Batman Inc and then the Bat Family. I feel the writers I mentioned would kill this story path, if it were to happen lol.

  12. #87
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    No offense taken lol. I do get where you're coming from, but I feel I should clarify a few of my points:

    1) When I said big writer, I don't mean the big mainstream ones. I mean prestige writers and/or writers with a larger footprint in general, like they've done good indie stuff too. I'd pick people like Remender, Warren Ellis, Priest, Brubaker, Lemire, or Cullen Bunn. They can do grander stories, but not lose sight of the plot and the characters...something I felt Lobdell did. Everything builds gradually, even when the story is fast paced, and everything makes sense and is given breathing room with them. Also, they have great dialogue and I feel they'd be perfect for capturing Jason's voice.

    When it comes to artist, I'd prefer artists like Matteo Scalera, Wes Craig, Declan Shalvey, Greg Smallwood, or Nick Dragotta. The bolded can really do great action scenes.

    2) I do want him less involved with his family as well, but that's not the real issue. He just needs to be written as his own man, who doesn't bend the knee to said Bat Family. He stays calm and will do what needs to be done, based on his own assessment of the situation. He's the second most skilled and powerful member of the family, and he should operate as such. He's not going to slaughter everyone (like Punisher) or be selfish (like Slade), but he'll be a nuanced peer to the rest of his family. Like Damian bringing up a crowbar isn't something that would face him, for once.

    3) When I said League, I mean the League of Assassins. That would keep him out of the mainstream stuff, but still make him a major player in the DC universe to be the new head of the LoA. He could be doing a favor for Talia, but ends up wrapped up in an internal conflict that ends with him as the leader, with Talia, Shiva, Essence and Bronze Tiger as his council. Have him try to reform the league, but things are far more complex, and he works with people like Waller, Slade, and Lex. He could have conflicts with the Court of Owls, Order of St Dumas, League of Shadows, Vander Savage, R'as, and then, eventually Batman Inc and then the Bat Family. I feel the writers I mentioned would kill this story path, if it were to happen lol.
    Those are good picks for Jason, all of them. Probably Remender is the best fit of them. Brubaker too, but I love noir, so I'm biased. Ellis is what I would choose for Batman, but he probably would do good for Jason too, I guess. Lately he's not so good writing characters, but he's still better than other high profile writers (I'm a fan, totally not biased). Priest, it could be both ways: I could like what he does, or I could hate what he does: it's the cat in the box out of that list for me.

    But, guys, Zdarsky doing a mini for Jason is already way higher than I expected. Even if it's 6 issues in an anthology. Lots of people are following his work nowadays, and not just because DD (I started following his work because that short but fun and touching trade he did for Star-lord).

    I still have hopes for Rosenberg. Ok, he's not high profile, but I like his work and he's a fan. And he said Jason was going to show up in Grifter in some tweet, iirc, idk.

    Also, @Serg, really: go read the Justice League International they did in the 80's. It's domestic, it's team built, it's made of C or even D listers. Batman barely has any pressence. And it's still a nice read. I know I've recommended it before, but never is a bad time to recommend it again .
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  13. #88
    Amazing Member CorDaytona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Affected how?

    Joker War was single Tie in issue, that was iirc even set before the arc that was going on in currently in RHatO and didn't affect that stoy at all (apart from interrupting it for one issue).

    The only effect it had out side of this issue was to bring Jokers daughter back for Lobedell's final arc, and that was probably something Lobedell wanted to do.


    Honestly I think off all the Batfamily books Nightwing is the only one where tie ins and cross overs had really big influences on the book going forward. And I think in many cases writers or editors just use the events to achieve a status quo change, they might have wanted anyway.
    Damians deaths and Dick having his identity revealed in Forever Evil and being shot in the head in Kings Batman, are afaik the only really examples where something happend that was outside of the control of their writers.
    It wasn't a big deal, but changing gears and switching the story so that there could be a tie-in issue felt weird (I'm gonna be frank, however: didn't remember it had been set up earlier).

    Lobdell's run, to me, felt rushed and unfocused during big chunks of it imo, so that issue could have been used to properly develop some stuff before the ending if the intent was always him leaving after 50 (as that's a "beautiful" number to call quits). It's also a filler issue that might annoy people waiting a month to read the actual story and are instead greeted by something they either don't have much context on or simply don't care. I can't say I was too sad about that one personally, though, especially since my investment with the regular RH wasn't very high.

    That said, it might not have been the best example considering how standalone it was, yeah. Other tie-ins actually had to develop some stuff to get to the particular storyline that one was about iirc.
    Last edited by CorDaytona; 01-09-2021 at 07:11 AM.

  14. #89
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    No offense taken lol. I do get where you're coming from, but I feel I should clarify a few of my points:

    [...]

    3) When I said League, I mean the League of Assassins. That would keep him out of the mainstream stuff, but still make him a major player in the DC universe to be the new head of the LoA. He could be doing a favor for Talia, but ends up wrapped up in an internal conflict that ends with him as the leader, with Talia, Shiva, Essence and Bronze Tiger as his council. Have him try to reform the league, but things are far more complex, and he works with people like Waller, Slade, and Lex. He could have conflicts with the Court of Owls, Order of St Dumas, League of Shadows, Vander Savage, R'as, and then, eventually Batman Inc and then the Bat Family. I feel the writers I mentioned would kill this story path, if it were to happen lol.
    First of all, thank you for the clarifications.
    Second, sorry for the misunderstanding. When I read "League" I automatically think of the Justice League. Regarding the League of Assassins, I have to say that I don't see the point of trying to reform them (It's like reforming the Joker.). And to be honest, the League of Assassins feels very old-fashioned and even boring. Furthermore, the League of Assassins belongs to Ra's, the same way that Gotham belongs to Batman/Bruce Wayne. You can change the character for a short period of time but in the long run the original will always return. And Jason needs a sustainable foundation that will be respected by other writers. I like Bronze Tiger though - Slade and Lex too (I don't know anything about Waller). I'm tired of Slade fighting Titans and getting his ass kicked by minors (It's dumb.), and I wished Lex Luthor would have stayed more anti-heroic instead of returning to his villain status.

    Like Damian bringing up a crowbar isn't something that would face him, for once.
    Another little info about me in case it wasn't painfully obvious: English isn't my first language. Do you really mean "face"? Or do you mean "faze"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Those are good picks for Jason, all of them. Probably Remender is the best fit of them. Brubaker too, but I love noir, so I'm biased. Ellis is what I would choose for Batman, but he probably would do good for Jason too, I guess. Lately he's not so good writing characters, but he's still better than other high profile writers (I'm a fan, totally not biased). Priest, it could be both ways: I could like what he does, or I could hate what he does: it's the cat in the box out of that list for me.

    But, guys, Zdarsky doing a mini for Jason is already way higher than I expected. Even if it's 6 issues in an anthology. Lots of people are following his work nowadays, and not just because DD (I started following his work because that short but fun and touching trade he did for Star-lord).

    I still have hopes for Rosenberg. Ok, he's not high profile, but I like his work and he's a fan. And he said Jason was going to show up in Grifter in some tweet, iirc, idk.


    Also, @Serg, really: go read the Justice League International they did in the 80's. It's domestic, it's team built, it's made of C or even D listers. Batman barely has any pressence. And it's still a nice read. I know I've recommended it before, but never is a bad time to recommend it again .
    Do you mean this tweet? It says "Grifter/Red Hood" but I think that's misleading and only means that there's a Grifter story and a Red Hood story.

    Thank you for the recommendation . I'll keep it in mind. I still haven't gotten to Moon Knight and Scarlet Spider though.
    Last edited by Sergard; 01-09-2021 at 08:39 AM.

  15. #90
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    Do you mean this tweet? It says "Grifter/Red Hood" but I think that's misleading and only means that there's a Grifter story and a Red Hood story.

    Thank you for the recommendation . I'll keep it in mind. I still haven't gotten to Moon Knight and Scarlet Spider though.
    No, not that tweet. I think I recall a tweet about Jason maybe showing up in the Grifter story like last week or the one before, around New year. But my memory is so unreliable sometimes. Perhaps I mixed up stuff again.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-09-2021 at 09:23 AM.
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