Matt Murdock: Daredevil Appreciation 2021

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

I'm also quite the fan of the current MCU with the exception of a couple of titles, but like I and others have said, PG does not warrant the secret identity reveal. Matt Murdock is NOT Tony Stark. One can't keep comparing the "working" life of two totally different individuals.

[Albert1981]

Folks, I'm going to recommend my article again. It talks about the problems Matt Murdock faced in the comics AS A LAWYER when his secret identity was revealed, and how he constantly bent and outright broke the law as an attorney -- as a member of the New York Bar -- while engaging in his vigilante activities. He's an excellent lawyer in terms of skill, but often a very bad one in terms of following the law and the oath he took -- kind of like Jimmy McGill/Saul Goodman.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3389544

And as much as I love Daredevil, I would rather never see him in live action again than see him as another wisecracking superhero with a public identity, having unmasked wacky adventures in the MCU. It would undo 40 years of character development. He isn't a blank slate like Ant-Man or the Guardians, where Feige and crew could just rewrite them from the ground up because nobody knew or cared about them before. I'd rather have him be an outlier -- someone who's always in the shadows, in the background, fighting his own small-scale fights in more of a dark, mature, neo-noir context than the family-friendly MCU allows. If they turn him into another glib Tony Stark wannabe, I'd rather they don't use him at all.

Thank you for sharing this article for new visitors to this thread like myself. I really appreciate the recommendation, but I must warn you: I am a VERY slow reader. It will take me a while to get through that document. But it sounds extremely interesting!

I found a quote online which really articulated better than I could why I think the secret identity trope might actually be more problematic than "relatable" to viewers and readers:

"Very rarely is a secret identity the kind of positive thematic force its advocates try to paint it as in this thread.

Most of the time I'd say it's an active detriment. Like we've got a hero in this battle between good and evil but on the side they've got this whole Mrs Doubtfire-esque scheme going on. "Oh no! How will Peter explain to his friends why he left the party early?"

Like if you wanna show that anybody can be a hero, you just show anybody being a hero. This whole "The man becomes a god and the god becomes a man" shtick only shows that heroes aren't ordinary joes like you and me. They're some bullshit out of a Greek Pantheon that only occasionally plays at wearing our clothes."

I personally think Daredevil belongs in the MCU because he is such an important and influential character in Marvel Comics. And also one of its most consistently popular and famous ones as well. I think comic book fans deserve to see him be a part of the greatest entertainment franchise of all-time. Maybe Feige and company will surprise viewers by giving his fans a dark and gritty version of DD in the MCU. But I doubt it very much at this point. For the same reason why I don't think the Punisher will be joining the MCU's ranks anytime soon (despite him being a definite Marvel A-lister and obvious fan favorite). Frank Castle would have to be DRAMATICALLY changed as a character for him to be a "Disney character". Daredevil doesn't need to change as radically as the Punisher would have to and he could still remain true to how he is represented in the source material. But yes, street-level heroes and anti-heroes like Daredevil and Punisher are not "easy" individuals to introduce into the family-friendly MCU.

I'm not saying that Marvel Studios should turn Murdock into a typical MCU quip machine. I absolutely think he should be funny though. Humor is a huge part of the MCU and I don't think that's changing. I don't think Daredevil will be immune to this particular quip-happy cinematic universe. And plus, as DD fans, don't you wanna see Matt get a happy ending for once as opposed to so many miserable ones? I certainly do.

[Albert1981]

I'm also quite the fan of the current MCU with the exception of a couple of titles, but like I and others have said, PG does not warrant the secret identity reveal. Matt Murdock is NOT Tony Stark. One can't keep comparing the "working" life of two totally different individuals.

Well, some comic book fans have been loud in their criticism of the MCU turning Strange, Thor, War Machine, the Hulk, and Star-Lord into "quip machines". I, like you, think it's awesome to see these superheroes (and supervillains) cracking SO many jokes. Many folks have said that first Avengers movie was one of the funniest films they've ever watched. And I agree, it is. I don't think superhero films and shows should take themselves too seriously. And the MCU doesn't. As long as DD can be portrayed as a fella who can overcome his disability with courage and dignity, I'll be happy and content.

[phantom1592]

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Most of the time I'd say it's an active detriment. Like we've got a hero in this battle between good and evil but on the side they've got this whole Mrs Doubtfire-esque scheme going on. "Oh no! How will Peter explain to his friends why he left the party early?"

Like if you wanna show that anybody can be a hero, you just show anybody being a hero. This whole "The man becomes a god and the god becomes a man" shtick only shows that heroes aren't ordinary joes like you and me. They're some bullshit out of a Greek Pantheon that only occasionally plays at wearing our clothes."

I think that's one of the things we differ on. I HATE the whole 'anyone can wear the mask' concept. I much prefer, "I do this because I'm the only one can,' mentality. Heroes ARE better than the ordinary joes. They've had a life time of training, courage and of course POWERS... that do set them above the readers. It's an escapism and fantasy to see people we wish we could be... not to see people who are just like us.

I personally think Daredevil belongs in the MCU because he is such an important and influential character in Marvel Comics. And also one of its most consistently popular and famous ones as well. I think comic book fans deserve to see him be a part of the greatest entertainment franchise of all-time. Maybe Feige and company will surprise viewers by giving his fans a dark and gritty version of DD in the MCU. But I doubt it very much at this point. For the same reason why I don't think the Punisher will be joining the MCU's ranks anytime soon (despite him being a definite Marvel A-lister and obvious fan favorite). Frank Castle would have to be DRAMATICALLY changed as a character for him to be a "Disney character". Daredevil doesn't need to change as radically as the Punisher would have to and he could still remain true to how he is represented in the source material. But yes, street-level heroes and anti-heroes like Daredevil and Punisher are not "easy" individuals to introduce into the family-friendly MCU.

I agree with most of this. Frankly I think ANY characters can fit perfectly well in an MCU setting. The Spider-man animated series is a great example. They had Punisher, Morbius, Blade, CARNAGE... they had everyone in a legit 'kids show' that wouldn't allow 'punching' in it. ANything is possible and it would be awesome!

That said, I still stand by that DD already IS part of the MCU. The netflix series were pretty blatant that they took place in the same world and dealt with the aftermath of Avengers 1. It fit just fine. PG-13 has a LOOOOOT of wiggle room in it.

I'm not saying that Marvel Studios should turn Murdock into a typical MCU quip machine. I absolutely think he should be funny though. Humor is a huge part of the MCU and I don't think that's changing. I don't think Daredevil will be immune to this particular quip-happy cinematic universe. And plus, as DD fans, don't you wanna see Matt get a happy ending for once as opposed to so many miserable ones? I certainly do.

Bring on the quips, Bring on the funny! Daredevil should always be quick witted and clever. I have zero problem with him being a happier more heroic character. I hated the torture porn that Netflix turned out to be.... that was not Daredevil.

But none of that has anything to do with him wearing a mask. It's two entirely different arguements. Two completely different discussions. I would much prefer the Karl Kessel, Mark Waid, Stan Lee style of Daredevil. Even Frank Miller wrote a funny Daredevil! Daredevil can live in a dark gritty dangerous world... without falling into the darkness himself. He rises above the crap in his world, he doesn't wallow in it. We can have a 'fun' Daredevil and it would be completely natural and in character.

But he still has the secret identity.

Well, some comic book fans have been loud in their criticism of the MCU turning Strange, Thor, War Machine, the Hulk, and Star-Lord into "quip machines". I, like you, think it's awesome to see these superheroes (and supervillains) cracking SO many jokes. Many folks have said that first Avengers movie was one of the funniest films they've ever watched. And I agree, it is. I don't think superhero films and shows should take themselves too seriously. And the MCU doesn't. As long as DD can be portrayed as a fella who can overcome his disability with courage and dignity, I'll be happy and content .

Comics should NEVER take themselves too seriously. Comics by nature are absurd and silly. Taking them too serious just makes them look dumber and dumber. Batman is a guy who dresses like a bat and punches clowns... Adding too much angst doesnt' change the fact that it's ridiculous. The best stories are the ones that accept that and lean into it.

I love the quips... I think some of the slapstick in Ragnarok went too far... but the tone was great

Murdock 'seeing' 360' in a world that thinks he's blind always leads to some great comedic opportunities. I always felt that Affleck's movie balanced that really well with him an Foggy. Netflix did too. At times anyways.

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

Daredevil & Kingpin by Dan Panosian:

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

LITTLE NEMO & DAREDEVIL Commission by JOLTIN' JOHNNY LUCAS:

[John Venus]

Re: Quipping

I think it would be out of character for DD to not throw a quip every now and then. Even his darkest iterations have occasionally maintained a sense of humor. In fact, I think one of the areas where the Netflix show dropped the ball was not focusing on Matt's swashbuckler side. Matt would be the guy who does something dangerous and then laughs it off. It's the loss of his humor over time when he goes through the crap life throws at him which highlights the seriousness of the situation.

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

Well, some comic book fans have been loud in their criticism of the MCU turning Strange, Thor, War Machine, the Hulk, and Star-Lord into "quip machines". I, like you, think it's awesome to see these superheroes (and supervillains) cracking SO many jokes. Many folks have said that first Avengers movie was one of the funniest films they've ever watched. And I agree, it is. I don't think superhero films and shows should take themselves too seriously. And the MCU doesn't. As long as DD can be portrayed as a fella who can overcome his disability with courage and dignity, I'll be happy and content.

Although I quite like Mark Ruffalo as Banner/Hulk, I do think the Edward Norton Hulk movie was very very good (with the exception of the miscasting of Tim Roth) with a serious/tragic Banner which is very true to the comics. Daredevil, however, can be jokey in his own way. If done well, then he will fit in the MCU very nicely.

As I said before, I'm all for the PG MCU as I've started to rewatch the MCU movies but this time chronologically and with my young teenager sons as they were too young to watch them earlier. I'm having a blast with them. We watched all the non-Disney MCU movies previously as well as all the Bill Bixby/Lou Ferrigno TV movies and about 30+ or so key episodes of the Incredible Hulk series (I have the complete set on dvd). My boys actually took a big liking to the Rex Hunter Daredevil from the The Incredible Hulk movie moreso than to Ben Affleck

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

Daredevil: The 8 Most Iconic Comic Book Panels

https://screenrant.com/daredevil-bes...ok-panels/amp/

[Nanashi]

Daredevil: The 8 Most Iconic Comic Book Panels

https://screenrant.com/daredevil-bes...ok-panels/amp/

#6 is my favorite there.

[Nanashi]

So does Elektra resume her own identity during Devils Reign?

https://twitter.com/gerryduggan/stat...564658690?s=21

[Albert1981]

I'm actually a little bit surprised that so many participants on this thread actually WANT Murdock to be funny and charming. From what I've read elsewhere, they would like him to act like the DCEU's Batman. I think that would be a HUGE mistake. We've seen the "darker" Matt in the 2003 movie, I think a new take is in order. People complain how the MCU's movies are "too funny", but I don't get that argument at all. Superhero stories are like as Stan Lee put it: Fairy tales for grown-ups. They are MEANT to be ridiculous, and I'm glad Feige and his team have embraced the sheer silliness of the genre (while making it extremely palatable for audiences all across the globe). That's a remarkable feat. I also caught up on a lot of superhero content during the pandemic. I had dropped out of it after watching the SONY Amazing Spider-Man movies. But now I'm fully up to speed and having a great time (thanks to using the time I had gained while under lockdown to watch DC and Marvel productions. They've improved a LOT since 2014). I was sort of unhappy that Marvel Studios even consented to making Deadpool 3 into an R-rated movie, but I feel they will tone things down. The Spider-Man cartoon from the 90s was indeed great. I liked how they portrayed Blade, Venom, Morbius and Carnage too. I just think SONY's Venom and Carnage are pretty violent characters that might not fit well with the tone of the MCU. Probably Morbius will be too. I think Punisher might be excluded from future MCU projects solely for one reason: Politics! I don't wanna get into it here, but I imagine folks on this thread know what I'm talking about. So we largely agree on having a PG-13 DD in Disney's Marvel Universe.

As I said previously, I don't think secret identities work in Feige's MCU. He's made it ABUNDANTLY clear that he dislikes the trope. And obviously he believes getting rid of it made Iron Man WILDLY popular and played a key role in the success of the MCU. I happen to agree with that position. Plus, it saves us from the WAY overdone trope of heroes agonizing over how to tell their girlfriends who they really are. As lousy as that Green Lantern movie was (and it definitely was that), I loved that scene with Hal's pathetic attempt to maintain his secret identity:

"I've known you all my life, you think a small mask over your eyes is going to fool me?! (or something to that effect)"

Secret identities CAN work in the comic books and cartoons, but I find them to be EXTREMELY unconvincing in live-action formats. Here's a quote I will share that sums up my position on this issue:

"Secret identities aren't logical when you have real human beings. Clark Kent doesn't stop looking like Clark Kent just because he's taken his glasses off. In the comics they can draw the characters differently depending on which persona they're in (Clark Kent certainly doesn't have the same build as Superman!), but that fails when you have a real human being. Lois Lane would have had to be completely blind to fail to notice the similarity between Christopher Reeve in Superman mode and Christopher Reeve in Clark Kent mode. That's one of the few things the otherwise-awful Green Lantern movie was right about - simply wearing a mask across your eyes doesn't stop you being recognizable!"

Noted comic book writer/artist Brian Michael Bendis made some valid (in my view) complaints about the hubris of the conceit (regarding secret identities), and I think I like it more when the heroes (and even the villains) are more truthful about who they are:

https://www.supermanhomepage.com/bri...et-identities/

I know Feige bases a LOT of his cinematic universe from the comic books of the 21st century (which I have missed since I stopped reading them in the late 90s), so I imagine he was influenced by Bendis's disdain for secret identities (I hear Bendis was quite influential at Marvel during the 2000s). I personally am NOT a fan of the idea that superheroes are "chosen" by fate and destiny to become that way. I like it when regular folks can become heroes too (after extensive training and practice of course).

I also don't want Moon Knight and Ms. Marvel (a new character to me but one which has a secret identity from what I understand) to keep their secret identities either. Hell, Spector often doesn't even know who HE is a lot of the time!

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

So does Elektra resume her own identity during Devils Reign?

https://twitter.com/gerryduggan/stat...564658690?s=21

I'm hoping she resigns the Daredevil mantle (when oh when will Betsy Braddock resign the CB mantle???sigh) or it could be just be art for art's sake i.e. not related to the interior.

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

Daredevil commission by Juan Ferreyra:

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

A new DD MMW on the way:

Marvel Masterworks: Daredevil Vol. 16 - collects Daredevil (1964) #173-181; material from What If? (1977) #28 & 35, Bizarre Adventures #28 and Marvel Fanfare (1982) #1