Matt Murdock: Daredevil Appreciation 2021

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

Matt Murdock by Mitch Gerads:

[Spiderfan001]

I liked the first part of the story in ASM just fine. I thought everyone was well done there too and unsurprisingly so since Waid did both issues of this story.

ASM was better than the DD issue

The dynamic between all the characters was excellent and fun. I know them well enough to say that. I think everyone acted as they would.

DD and Spidey's dynamic was fun, everything else was very OOC and not well written.

As a matter of fact, what would be interesting is do you have any recommendations for what you consider to be the ideal characterizations of BC and Spidey since you find them to be out so of character in this storyline?

I'll only mention issues were they weren't in a relationship since it would be unfair otherwise

1.All their interactions in Spencer's ASM run.Specific issue would be 16.HU(shows Black Cat's POV) but there are bits and pieces in others arcs that are well done.
2.Marvel Knights Spider-man has one of the best Felicia MJ and Peter dynamics you'll find.Not to mention the story is great
3.Nothing can stop the Rhino is a great issue that shows Black Cat's POV
4.The Black Cat Annual 1 is also a cool non-dating story that nails the dialogue but doesn't delve to deep into them
5.The recent ASM issue 78 has a great Black Cat(talking to coma Peter) as well, short but very well written

There are a lot more when they aren't dating and way too many where they but I feel these 4 do a good job at summing up there dynamic.There's a stark diff. in the way they interact w/ each other in these and almost ever other apperance as compared to the 2 parter.

Should note that all these are more from Black Cat's POV since it's her character that was extremly OOC here

You haven’t been rude at all. Everything’s good.

Thanks, I def. been more than I should.But thanks for being cool nonetheless

Haha I think we already know things probably wouldn’t go well for Peter.

Yeah lol it was sarcastic, I like that issue.Peter Elektra's dynamic was what I'd call in character, specially since how Peter portrays himself most would think he's a joke before looking into him and/or getting to know him.Even though the Spider-man/Elektra team up issue(maybe it was an annual) has a far superior dynamic but this isn't OOC, and even if it is it's not hurting any characters.

Also for DD Spider-man stuff

1.The classic "you saved that little girl's life"
2.This from their team up one shot. https://twitter.com/watsonparkers/st...31872386625544
3.Chip's Peter and Matt all interaction from the recent run

There are more but these are ones of the top of my head

[Spiderfan001]

When she became a mob boss did it have anything to do with the story of her trying and deciding not to steel the drive from DD?

I can't remember, I don't think so. Slott still did a nasty job on her.

This was the first issue where she was anti-Peter, it started her on the path.

Before this arc she was helping Peter to the point of working w/ MJ to save his life(she even made friends w/ MJ) from Doc Tramma and the Big time team up where they were very friendly and she was helping him.This issue is what changed the tide, Slott just carried it through w/ the Superior punch.

That's why I'm so against this arc, it didn't just further her descent but it started it w/ a complete 180 on her character and all for a cheap gag that never went anywhere.

[marhawkman]

What If... Matt was successful in rehabilitating Mary, and she became a force for good?

Funnily enough as "Mutant Zero" Mary was pretty dangerous.

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

This was the first issue where she was anti-Peter, it started her on the path.

Before this arc she was helping Peter to the point of working w/ MJ to save his life(she even made friends w/ MJ) from Doc Tramma and the Big time team up where they were very friendly and she was helping him.This issue is what changed the tide, Slott just carried it through w/ the Superior punch.

That's why I'm so against this arc, it didn't just further her descent but it started it w/ a complete 180 on her character and all for a cheap gag that never went anywhere.

Thanks for the reply. I think you nailed calling it a cheap gag, because that's what it was as Slott probably couldn't think of anything better and wanted the rest of his story to work. We all knew she would come around at some point.

[Spiderfan001]

Thanks for the reply. I think you nailed calling it a cheap gag, because that's what it was as Slott probably couldn't think of anything better and wanted the rest of his story to work. We all knew she would come around at some point.

Both Waid's and Slott's were cheap gags but Slott's was worse in ways Waid's wasn't.

Waid was using Cat to just further his "Matt fantasy" which harmed her character.Shows a real ignorance and lack of care of the character he used to do so.

Slott's at a much bigger fault because Cat's not a guest character for ASM (which he wrote for more than a decade) but a long standing supporting character.Superior treated supporting characters terribly, the way sp0ck was talking all of them would know it wasn't Peter in minutes in just the tip of the iceberg.

He then goes on to make her even more evil and wanting to unmask Spider-man and that whole thing, which is very hard to justify.Adding insult to injury was the Symbiote Venom Inc. thingy where Flash was treated like Waid treats Matt and Peter and Cat get the short end of the stick.For Peter it's literal, for Cat she's second fiddle to another character even if it makes a bit more sense than w/ Matt.

Ofc. it's Venom who gives Felicia a pep talk at the end, no reconciliation w/ Spider-man and she says that this doesn't change anything.

The way she talks to Flash in comparison to Peter blatantly shows who the writer wants the hero to be.BND writers specially Slott loved to make fun of Peter's character and make him small and jealous, everyone other than him is great and he's the problem.It's sick that someone like that got to write ASM for a decade, Slott has even admitted in tweets that "his job was to make Peter suffer as much as he could".It's such a misunderstanding of the character.



This is what I mean, this is what Slott and co. did to Peter for an entire decade in his own comic book.The reason people who dislike Slott enjoy red goblin is because it's Peter finally doing something after a decade of being humiliated and behaving wildly OOC.

Spencer's black Cat retcon is so genius is because it isn't your run of the mill "it was a phase" thing which would be perfectly fine.Using the loss of Peter's memories as the reason why she did what she did not only justifies her actions, it's a testament to how deep their connection really is and how much Peter changed Felicia for the better(stated by her in stories like the Rhino story I mention before BND).Spencer used a decade of mess that completely ruined her character and her relationship to Peter and turned it into something that solidifies their bond and her actual character in 2 issues.It's beautiful.

What spider-man(and Black Cat and Daredevil) need are writers who respect the characters, not humiliate them and use them as their own private punching bag and/or stepping stone.DD has been lucky in this regard and I hope that never changes, and hopefully Peter and Cat get writers that respect them as their character.

I know this is very long and I'm sorry, but I feel this gets the point I was making at the start in a clear way.

[Nanashi]

ASM was better than the DD issue



DD and Spidey's dynamic was fun, everything else was very OOC and not well written.



I'll only mention issues were they weren't in a relationship since it would be unfair otherwise

1.All their interactions in Spencer's ASM run.Specific issue would be 16.HU(shows Black Cat's POV) but there are bits and pieces in others arcs that are well done.
2.Marvel Knights Spider-man has one of the best Felicia MJ and Peter dynamics you'll find.Not to mention the story is great
3.Nothing can stop the Rhino is a great issue that shows Black Cat's POV
4.The Black Cat Annual 1 is also a cool non-dating story that nails the dialogue but doesn't delve to deep into them
5.The recent ASM issue 78 has a great Black Cat(talking to coma Peter) as well, short but very well written

There are a lot more when they aren't dating and way too many where they but I feel these 4 do a good job at summing up there dynamic.There's a stark diff. in the way they interact w/ each other in these and almost ever other apperance as compared to the 2 parter.

Should note that all these are more from Black Cat's POV since it's her character that was extremly OOC here



Thanks, I def. been more than I should.But thanks for being cool nonetheless



Yeah lol it was sarcastic, I like that issue.Peter Elektra's dynamic was what I'd call in character, specially since how Peter portrays himself most would think he's a joke before looking into him and/or getting to know him.Even though the Spider-man/Elektra team up issue(maybe it was an annual) has a far superior dynamic but this isn't OOC, and even if it is it's not hurting any characters.

Also for DD Spider-man stuff

1.The classic "you saved that little girl's life"
2.This from their team up one shot. https://twitter.com/watsonparkers/st...31872386625544
3.Chip's Peter and Matt all interaction from the recent run

There are more but these are ones of the top of my head

I liked both the ASM and DD issues but the ASM issue does have one of my favorite moments when DD and Spidey leap from the Empire State in a free fall race.

I have a feeling those recommendations won’t deviate too far if at all from how I know the character to be including how she was together with DD and Spidey. I’ll check them out. And those you recommended that I am familiar with I don’t find out of character to how she was with DD and Spidey.

[Nanashi]

Both Waid's and Slott's were cheap gags but Slott's was worse in ways Waid's wasn't.

Waid was using Cat to just further his "Matt fantasy" which harmed her character.Shows a real ignorance and lack of care of the character he used to do so.

Slott's at a much bigger fault because Cat's not a guest character for ASM (which he wrote for more than a decade) but a long standing supporting character.Superior treated supporting characters terribly, the way sp0ck was talking all of them would know it wasn't Peter in minutes in just the tip of the iceberg.

He then goes on to make her even more evil and wanting to unmask Spider-man and that whole thing, which is very hard to justify.Adding insult to injury was the Symbiote Venom Inc. thingy where Flash was treated like Waid treats Matt and Peter and Cat get the short end of the stick.For Peter it's literal, for Cat she's second fiddle to another character even if it makes a bit more sense than w/ Matt.

Ofc. it's Venom who gives Felicia a pep talk at the end, no reconciliation w/ Spider-man and she says that this doesn't change anything.

The way she talks to Flash in comparison to Peter blatantly shows who the writer wants the hero to be.BND writers specially Slott loved to make fun of Peter's character and make him small and jealous, everyone other than him is great and he's the problem.It's sick that someone like that got to write ASM for a decade, Slott has even admitted in tweets that "his job was to make Peter suffer as much as he could".It's such a misunderstanding of the character.



This is what I mean, this is what Slott and co. did to Peter for an entire decade in his own comic book.The reason people who dislike Slott enjoy red goblin is because it's Peter finally doing something after a decade of being humiliated and behaving wildly OOC.

Spencer's black Cat retcon is so genius is because it isn't your run of the mill "it was a phase" thing which would be perfectly fine.Using the loss of Peter's memories as the reason why she did what she did not only justifies her actions, it's a testament to how deep their connection really is and how much Peter changed Felicia for the better(stated by her in stories like the Rhino story I mention before BND).Spencer used a decade of mess that completely ruined her character and her relationship to Peter and turned it into something that solidifies their bond and her actual character in 2 issues.It's beautiful.

What spider-man(and Black Cat and Daredevil) need are writers who respect the characters, not humiliate them and use them as their own private punching bag and/or stepping stone.DD has been lucky in this regard and I hope that never changes, and hopefully Peter and Cat get writers that respect them as their character.

I know this is very long and I'm sorry, but I feel this gets the point I was making at the start in a clear way.

Waid did a masterful job with BC. He created one of my favorite pairings in all of comics.

[Nanashi]

I wonder if Zdarsky will give closure to all of those earlier subplots? I'm sure he will. I especially want to be rid of Mike Murdock.

I expect he will. He is continuing his run after Devil’s Reign after all may continue passed issue 50. In a recent Reddit AMA or video interview I think he said he has some ending planned but he didn’t give an exact issue number for when he thinks he’ll end his run.

[Nanashi]

After watching Black Widow and Shang-Chi recently at the flicks, I'm definitely for Daredevil getting the big screen treatment, and done properly.

Done properly, on TV or film, I’m there either way.

[Nanashi]

What If... Matt was successful in rehabilitating Mary, and she became a force for good?

Beautiful page.

[Spiderfan001]

I liked both the ASM and DD issues but the ASM issue does have one of my favorite moments when DD and Spidey leap from the Empire State in a free fall race.

I have a feeling those recommendations won’t deviate too far if at all from how I know the character to be including how she was together with DD and Spidey. I’ll check them out. And those you recommended that I am familiar with I don’t find out of character to how she was with DD and Spidey.

They do lol, it's like reading another character level bad.

Waid did a masterful job with BC. He created one of my favorite pairings in all of comics.

1)So I'm guessing you ignored where he did a complete 180 on her character for a cheap gag that never went anywhere.

2)Again you only look at the DD side of things and it's blatantly obvious.I already said DD was decent in this

3)"masterful" I dug out and re-read the issues, broke down the timeline of Black Cat and where it all went wrong(this arc), provided examples of how they should be and usually are written and why this handeling of characters is very harmful and that's your takeaway...

Maybe I'm framing it in a way that can't reach you or smth, hopefully Raffi can understand what I mean and maybe try to put it in better words.Because I tried every direction and was as thorough as I can and you just said it was "masterful"....

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

What if Daredevil and Black Cat became regular love interests?

Lol OK. I was hoping for a more out there choice like Sue Storm or Valkryie.

What if Karen page never died
What if Shadow land Matt won
What if Matt was kingpin was done rather well in earth 65
What if Matt was part of the X-men would be cool but not sure how it'd work



Chip also said Devil's Reign is Fisk loosing all restraint because of what happens in the marriage but am I the only one to feel that whole plot is rushed.

Professor X just finds him at the orphanage and thinks he's a mutant.

What If... Matt was successful in rehabilitating Mary, and she became a force for good?

That's cool.

[Nanashi]

Jump to 13:05 for the Soule Daredevil omnibus.

[Raffi Ol D'Arcy]

Both Waid's and Slott's were cheap gags but Slott's was worse in ways Waid's wasn't.

Waid was using Cat to just further his "Matt fantasy" which harmed her character.Shows a real ignorance and lack of care of the character he used to do so.

Slott's at a much bigger fault because Cat's not a guest character for ASM (which he wrote for more than a decade) but a long standing supporting character.Superior treated supporting characters terribly, the way sp0ck was talking all of them would know it wasn't Peter in minutes in just the tip of the iceberg.

He then goes on to make her even more evil and wanting to unmask Spider-man and that whole thing, which is very hard to justify.Adding insult to injury was the Symbiote Venom Inc. thingy where Flash was treated like Waid treats Matt and Peter and Cat get the short end of the stick.For Peter it's literal, for Cat she's second fiddle to another character even if it makes a bit more sense than w/ Matt.

Ofc. it's Venom who gives Felicia a pep talk at the end, no reconciliation w/ Spider-man and she says that this doesn't change anything.

The way she talks to Flash in comparison to Peter blatantly shows who the writer wants the hero to be.BND writers specially Slott loved to make fun of Peter's character and make him small and jealous, everyone other than him is great and he's the problem.It's sick that someone like that got to write ASM for a decade, Slott has even admitted in tweets that "his job was to make Peter suffer as much as he could".It's such a misunderstanding of the character.



This is what I mean, this is what Slott and co. did to Peter for an entire decade in his own comic book.The reason people who dislike Slott enjoy red goblin is because it's Peter finally doing something after a decade of being humiliated and behaving wildly OOC.

Spencer's black Cat retcon is so genius is because it isn't your run of the mill "it was a phase" thing which would be perfectly fine.Using the loss of Peter's memories as the reason why she did what she did not only justifies her actions, it's a testament to how deep their connection really is and how much Peter changed Felicia for the better(stated by her in stories like the Rhino story I mention before BND).Spencer used a decade of mess that completely ruined her character and her relationship to Peter and turned it into something that solidifies their bond and her actual character in 2 issues.It's beautiful.

What spider-man(and Black Cat and Daredevil) need are writers who respect the characters, not humiliate them and use them as their own private punching bag and/or stepping stone.DD has been lucky in this regard and I hope that never changes, and hopefully Peter and Cat get writers that respect them as their character.

I know this is very long and I'm sorry, but I feel this gets the point I was making at the start in a clear way.

You know, that really really annoyed me with Superior, that certain characters couldn't tell the difference and how Black Cat later reacted extremely OTT with Peter. Some of the first Spidey comics I read back in the early 80s were those where BC was introduced and knowing their history together, it just seemed OOC how she responded.

You mentioning Spencer's retcon of BC reminded me of Soule's putting Daredevil's secret identity back in the box after Waid's run. One of the elements I disliked in Waid's run was Daredevil's identity reveal and how the later issues in San Francisco went downhill. Soule did a masterful job.