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  1. #76
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    spoilers:
    Liked her using the shield, it's some really cool symbolism. I want a 'What If?' of her becoming Captain America.
    end of spoilers

    Everything else I didn't like. The issue was meant to be about her yet she still took a backseat to Reed and what he was doing. It's a pattern in the FF that needs to end, I'm tired of it. Plus I hated the ending.
    spoilers:
    Reminds me of how Marvel Mangaverse Carol Danvers became Captain America.
    end of spoilers

  2. #77
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Reposting from Wanda's thread. Preview page from the AU Dark Ages.




    Although it looks like Strange opened the portal while Sue is shielding them, it would be nice if the two can combine their shield powers. Imagine the Shield of the Seraphim synergizing with Sue's force fields.
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  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    That's a pretty cool concept. Am I recalling that during DeFalco years, Agatha was fighting Sue as Malice and thought her powers approached magic levels, or the application of them.

    In other words, we all know that the more Sue is able to 'see' or visualize her constructs, the more powerful they may be or with incredible applications: flying, protecting agains incredible force (Hulk and Thing together, if only for minutes), super bomb blasts, etc.

    These abilities are strengthened by her imagination, which is a magical art in itself.
    I love Sue "getting out more", and the bonus is teaming up with Wanda, another favorite character.
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  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    That's a pretty cool concept. Am I recalling that during DeFalco years, Agatha was fighting Sue as Malice and thought her powers approached magic levels, or the application of them.

    In other words, we all know that the more Sue is able to 'see' or visualize her constructs, the more powerful they may be or with incredible applications: flying, protecting agains incredible force (Hulk and Thing together, if only for minutes), super bomb blasts, etc.

    These abilities are strengthened by her imagination, which is a magical art in itself.
    I love Sue "getting out more", and the bonus is teaming up with Wanda, another favorite character.
    Now magic in the Marvel Universe is a very dynamic and changing concept. What it actually is can't (and probably shouldn't) be defined. But with Sue's abilities tied into hyper-space, there's a possible mix of magic and science for Sue's powers. Not that Sue actually has control of magic with her powers, but she mimics it with her scientific base.

    I see it as a lot like the astral forms of Dr Strange and Professor X. One is a scientific natural ability, the other is the result of magic. Yet both are the same result.
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  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Marvel Knights 4 had a similar view on her powers:

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  6. #81
    Invincible Member juan678's Avatar
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  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    I wish Sue's interactions with Johnny was more like siblings, not solely lecturing him or giving pep talks.

    It's weird that they feel less like family than Johnny and Ben do.

    There needs to be more moments of them having fun together, being petty with each other, arguing like siblings and not teacher/student. Johnny loves pranking Ben and others, but his sister would be target no.1 because that's how siblings usually are. I can't really think of any time that has ever happened... Someone please let me know if there was a time.

    It would be good for Sue because it would show another side to the character. She's the big sister and that should be a completely different dynamic than being a mother, writers often forget that.
    Last edited by Crimz; 07-06-2021 at 07:06 AM.
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  8. #83
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    I wish Sue's interactions with Johnny was more like siblings, not solely lecturing him or giving pep talks.

    It's weird that they feel less like family than Johnny and Ben do.

    There needs to be more moments of them having fun together, being petty with each other, arguing like siblings and not teacher/student. Johnny loves pranking Ben and others, but his sister would be target no.1 because that's how siblings usually are. I can't really think of any time that has ever happened... Someone please let me know if there was a time.

    It would be good for Sue because it would show another side to the character. She's the big sister and that should be a completely different dynamic than being a mother, writers often forget that.
    I mean, some sibling dynamics are like that, but I feel like I've read runs where they showed off different sides of their relationships (couldn't peg exact moments though).

    I thought the flashback to young Sue and Johnny in the recent The Marvels issue was really cute...

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, some sibling dynamics are like that, but I feel like I've read runs where they showed off different sides of their relationships (couldn't peg exact moments though).

    I thought the flashback to young Sue and Johnny in the recent The Marvels issue was really cute...
    Some are like that, but these are fictional characters and I think this is an example of writers not caring beyond having Sue being the "mother" of the team. It's her dynamic with every member of the team, even Reed. They have her play the mother to all of them when she should have more complex and unique relationships with each of them.

    I'm not saying that her relationship with Johnny should mirror Ben's, just that that they should have more interactions that are like siblings instead of mother and child. There have been very few times that a writer has tried to do things slightly different, but it's usually for about an issue at best.

    I just think that Sue's personality needs to be more well-rounded and one of the problems is how her relationship with the other members is written.
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  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Some are like that, but these are fictional characters and I think this is an example of writers not caring beyond having Sue being the "mother" of the team. It's her dynamic with every member of the team, even Reed. They have her play the mother to all of them when she should have more complex and unique relationships with each of them.

    I'm not saying that her relationship with Johnny should mirror Ben's, just that that they should have more interactions that are like siblings instead of mother and child. There have been very few times that a writer has tried to do things slightly different, but it's usually for about an issue at best.

    I just think that Sue's personality needs to be more well-rounded and one of the problems is how her relationship with the other members is written.
    I'm not sure the mother/son description of Sue/Johnny isn't or shouldn't be accurate/ Ages for the FF have been a question and how old they were when is always up for debate. But if Sue played mother and raised Johnny long enough, the mother relationship could have easily been developed. And Sue, doing this at so young an age, may also be over-reacting to her parenting mode. That being said, you have an excellent point about diversifying Sue's relationships. She should be different things to different people.and her being official Marvel MILF/Mother hen shouldn't be 24/7.

    As for Johnny and Ben's pranking, I would LOVE to see an early adventure where they do try to prank Sue and she comes back at them and out does them so badly, they decide it's best "not to f*** with Suzie".
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  11. #86
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I'm not sure the mother/son description of Sue/Johnny isn't or shouldn't be accurate/ Ages for the FF have been a question and how old they were when is always up for debate. But if Sue played mother and raised Johnny long enough, the mother relationship could have easily been developed. And Sue, doing this at so young an age, may also be over-reacting to her parenting mode. That being said, you have an excellent point about diversifying Sue's relationships. She should be different things to different people.and her being official Marvel MILF/Mother hen shouldn't be 24/7.

    As for Johnny and Ben's pranking, I would LOVE to see an early adventure where they do try to prank Sue and she comes back at them and out does them so badly, they decide it's best "not to f*** with Suzie".
    Yeah, isn't it canon that Sue basically raised Johnny since he was really young?

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    She did raise Johnny when they were both young and I'm not saying that history should effect their dynamic, just that it shouldn't be so focused on the mothering aspect. He's still her brother first and foremost and they should have more sibling-like interactions. A good example is Katara and Sokka from the Avatar cartoon (which is amazing if you haven't watched it). They have a really similar situation in that the sister had to grow up fast and practically raise the brother to the point where he says this:



    But that doesn't completely overtake their dynamic as siblings like it does for Sue and Johnny. They still bicker, tease, tell jokes, and do things siblings do. I just want Sue and Johnny's relationship to be more complex and not solely Sue mothering him.

    I want all of Sue's relationships to be more than being a mother (except Frank and Val of course) and help show who she is outside of that role. How she talks to Ben, Johnny, and Reed should be very different to how she talks to the kids. Also, how does she interact with peers? It should all be very different depending on who it is and show the range of her personality because right now that is the most underdeveloped aspect of the character.

    On her relationship with her actual kids, it should be more complex than the cookie cutter mother personality we see everywhere. Her kids are a cosmic god and a super genius, her relationship and interactions with them should reflect how crazy and different that is. Like does she try and talk to Val like an adult because of her intellect or make sure to have Val realize that while smart, she's still just a kid?
    Does she try and empathize with Franklin because of her own immense power? How does she punish them when they do something bad? What they do for fun together?

    All these questions and more should come into play when writing her interactions with her kids. Have it be unique to them because their situation is unique.
    Last edited by Crimz; 07-06-2021 at 07:31 PM.
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  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, some sibling dynamics are like that, but I feel like I've read runs where they showed off different sides of their relationships (couldn't peg exact moments though).

    I thought the flashback to young Sue and Johnny in the recent The Marvels issue was really cute...
    The last/significant time that Johnny was unable to flame off, was, I believe around the Englehart issues and the first Inferno plot.
    Either way I recall a scene where Sue used her FF to coat her as she held hands with Johnny to comfort him.
    It is a small scene but it is one of those ones I remember.

    To me Sue is both super close sister *and* caretaker/almost parent (due to the circumstances that are canon).

    They love each other completely as sibs.

    Another scene or part I remember was during Infinity Crusade, with the Goddess calling certain heroes "of faith" to Her. (I loved this story, as I am a worshipper of "The Goddess" by all Her names, though I didn't like the ending characterization of Her).
    Sue and Johnny shared a panel or two talking about their faith.
    There are probably other bits, over the years. Not enough to be seen as her basic trait, but for readers like me, and perhaps many of you, these moments count.
    Their bond is very close and is a quasi-sib/parent-child thing. Why not both?
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  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    The last/significant time that Johnny was unable to flame off, was, I believe around the Englehart issues and the first Inferno plot.
    Either way I recall a scene where Sue used her FF to coat her as she held hands with Johnny to comfort him.
    It is a small scene but it is one of those ones I remember.

    To me Sue is both super close sister *and* caretaker/almost parent (due to the circumstances that are canon).

    They love each other completely as sibs.

    Another scene or part I remember was during Infinity Crusade, with the Goddess calling certain heroes "of faith" to Her. (I loved this story, as I am a worshipper of "The Goddess" by all Her names, though I didn't like the ending characterization of Her).
    Sue and Johnny shared a panel or two talking about their faith.
    There are probably other bits, over the years. Not enough to be seen as her basic trait, but for readers like me, and perhaps many of you, these moments count.
    Their bond is very close and is a quasi-sib/parent-child thing. Why not both?
    That's what I'm wanting, for it to be both. The parental aspect takes too much precedence. It's 90% parent 10% sibling and I want it be 50/50 at best, 60/40 at worst.
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  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    It would be great if any of the character arcs were compelling.
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