Young Avengers Appreciation - 2021

[scourge]

This irrational worry some of y'all have about them not eventually showing Billy & Teddy, their go to, most famous gay couple, the blueprint if you will as a couple is ridiculous it'll happen eventually, Young Avengers as a whole is probably at least another 4-5 years away they got time.

I don't think its that irrational. Especially when the only Billy we've had in the MCU is a little kid and there's nothing on Teddy at all. I would say being worried that they'll try to avoid the relationship at all through something dumb or minimize it so its barely there isn't too out there.

I mean how long has the MCU been around and how long has it taken for us to get an openly LGBT hero? Heck they're not even going to be a 'main' character. Having to wait 4-5 more years on top of that doesn't exactly engender trust that they won't screw up on the Teddy/Billy front.

[Marik Swift]

Lemire gave her one of those ''never seen before origins'', where she was kidnapped as a kid due to her father's criminal activities, and ended up rescued by the Avengers. She was specially impressed by Clint and how he was a regular human without powers among powerful people and all that. So he became a childhood inspiration for her of sorts. He never addressed the Young Avengers origin, but he never erased it either, so supposedly the Central Park incident still happened and still was what ultimately pushed her to become a hero. I don't think the Lemire origin was that bad because he didn't try to force the fangirl aspect of it, even if I preferred Kate being the one Young Avenger with no pre-existing tie to any other Avengers heroes. But it seems very possible that the MCU is going down that route.... I don't think her being inspired by him is inherently bad, but there's gotta be a balance. If they're trying to make Kate another Kamala Khan in terms of being a fangirl, that will definitely come off as a misunderstanding of the character.

And like... it's not like the fan aspect can't exist within the Young Avengers. Literally all of other founding members were supposed to be fanboys to some degree. So the fact that they had to take the ONE character who wasn't one and possibly turned her into that is just... why? Billy and Teddy are right there if they want someone to geek out over the Avengers, and their fans wouldn't complain because we know it was their thing in the comics anyway.



Ok, thanks for the explanation. It's hard keeping track of Marvel's messy timeline sometimes.

As for Genis, he is reportedly coming back for the current arc on the Captain Marvel book, which is dealing with multiple characters connected to the Cap. Marvel legacy. He even appeared in an upcoming cover, and it looks like Mar-Vell could be coming back for that arc too (he also got a cover). It's unclear how all of those alleged returns will be dealt with, though, and if any of them will be ''for real'' or something like the Marvel Legacies one-shots was.

I generally interrupt it as that after she saw Clint when she was young, she made a half ass attempt at being a hero. You know, basically like how someone would make a half ass attempt at getting in shape for the new years.

But then the assault years later is what really finally pushed her to become a hero.

NB. Although I generally don't like when her assault is focused upon too much — I hate when female characters are defined as becoming heroes by being sexually assaulted in the past.

[Drops Of Venus]

As much as it would be true to the comics versions, Billy and Teddy will (likely) already have ties to the Avengers / superhero stuff through their heritage, so it makes sense for Kate, the one who *isn't* tied to that whole world, to be the the superhero enthusiast. Billy, son of Wanda, already has an 'in' to that world. He doesn't have to be a superhero fanboy to get involved. I have no idea what the MCU plans for Teddy are (Mar-Vell and Talos' son, to swap the genders of the parents?), but he'd likely also have a built in hook tying him to the superhero life, due to his alien heritage.

As an adaptation, I'm expecting some differences, and Kate being the fangirl more so than Billy or Teddy would bother me a hell of a lot less than some of the crap I've heard speculated (like Billy being a younger kid than young adult Kate and Cassie, and therefore them being able to kick the can down the road and not portray anything other than subtext-y hints of an eventual romance with Teddy).

You have a point there, but the thing, at least for me, that made the fanboy dynamic of Billy and Teddy in the comics special was the fact that THEY DIDN'T KNOW they were ''a part of that world'' when they were fans for the first time. They were fans not because they thought they had some legacy connection to the Avengers like Cassie did, but because they genuinely were into superheroes. In a way, it was a perfect fanboy scenario: you've admired superheroes your whole life, and then suddenly you find out you are the ''heir'' to the legacy of Earth's Mightiest Heroes? It was a special journey of self-discovery for them BECAUSE they were fans. And that's something that can still be done in the MCU. We don't really know how they plan on introducing Wiccan and Hulkling, but they can still go with the ''they don't know the truth about who they are yet'' route.

With Kate, it wasn't like that. Because she wasn't a part of that world, her heroic motivations were a lot more grounded. It wasn't about some pipe cape dream, but something more deeply personal and dark. I liked that about her origin; I think it gave her the kind of maturity the rest of the Young Avengers didn't have. If you take that away from her, then I don't even know if any of the MCU Young Avengers could have that kind of gritty origin story. Maybe Eli? Since his grandpa was never Captain America in the MCU, maybe he'll have less of a reason to be a fan of superhero mantles in that universe, and feel less of a want to ''honor'' a heroic legacy? I guess that could work.

This irrational worry some of y'all have about them not eventually showing Billy & Teddy, their go to, most famous gay couple, the blueprint if you will as a couple is ridiculous it'll happen eventually, Young Avengers as a whole is probably at least another 4-5 years away they got time.

I agree that there is no way Billy/Teddy won't be a thing as long as Young Avengers exist as a project. Completely erasing that relationship within the YA franchise would just cause the kind of backlash that wouldn't be worth the trouble. They could be doing any other teams without queer couples instead of choosing the one where the gay couple is actually the biggest one. So if they're doing YA, I have no doubt in my mind they know they have the responsibility to acknowledge their romantic connection. That being said, I do think that HOW that connection will be fleshed out is a valid concern. It's not beyond Disney to have a gay couple but then shove their relationship to the background in favor of a straight relationship. That is my biggest concern with YA; that we're gonna have to sit through some basic ass Kate/Eli or Nate/Cassie ship while getting Billy/Teddy crumbs.

And if that audition tape for older Tommy is real, I don't think they're waiting 4/5 years. Hailee and Kathryn will be pushing 30 by then. They don't have the luxury of waiting that long for a YA debut. They have to make the most of it while the adult actors are still in their 20s. If some actors being too young is a problem right now, replacing them with older actors is the best option.

NB. Although I generally don't like when her assault is focused upon too much — I hate when female characters are defined as becoming heroes by being sexually assaulted in the past.

I don't think her assault has ever been ''focused upon too much'', though. We had one page about it on Young Avengers Special and then it was literally never brought up again, which I actually dislike. Like, it shouldn't be a defining factor in her stories, but considering we learned she had to go to therapy because of it and confided her story to Jessica Jones, who is also a fellow sexual assault survivor, at least a follow up on her mental health would've been appreciated. But Marvel just swept it all under the rug, which is just a weird way to deal with such a pivotal plot point. I think there needs to be a balance; you don't need to censor these type of stories, but you also have to make sure you tell them in a sensible way, without coming off as ''trauma porn''. There is a reason why Kate's backstory didn't cause as much backlash as the recent X-Factor #10 controversy with Prodigy.

[Marik Swift]

I don't think her assault has ever been ''focused upon too much'', though. We had one page about it on Young Avengers Special and then it was literally never brought up again, which I actually dislike. Like, it shouldn't be a defining factor in her stories, but considering we learned she had to go to therapy because of it and confided her story to Jessica Jones, who is also a fellow sexual assault survivor, at least a follow up on her mental health would've been appreciated. But Marvel just swept it all under the rug, which is just a weird way to deal with such a pivotal plot point. I think there needs to be a balance; you don't need to censor these type of stories, but you also have to make sure you tell them in a sensible way, without coming off as ''trauma porn''. There is a reason why Kate's backstory didn't cause as much backlash as the recent X-Factor #10 controversy with Prodigy.

I think a writer will definitely inevitably expand upon it. I just hope it doesn't open Pandora's box to writers always bringing it up.

But yea, "trauma porn" describes it perfectly I think. I personally think the best way to handle it is maybe having Kate confront her attacker(s) and show she has made peace with it. And I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to make light of rape, but maybe she forgives them? Again I'm not trying to make light of the subject, but I feel like Kate would kind of feel like the incident made her stronger and made her into the person she is so she no longer bares resentment. Like she track them down, forgives them, decides not to report it (cause maybe they turned their life around), but still beats their ass just to prove they could never do that to her again even on their best day.

Considering how much writers tend to throw sexual assault into female characters history (which isn't all too unrealistic from real life since most women have experienced such their entire lives), it would be nice to see it handled differently.

They definitely won't make the assault a part of her history for the MCU though.

Again, I can't stress enough, that I'm not trying to make sexual assault seem like something light, it's just a thought.

[Fokken]

Yeah, they're clearly going the long way around with the YA

Given the quality of the Disney+ series thus far, I'd prefer the Young Avengers land their own series, as they progressively get introduced over time, and if they later get incorporated into the films, so be it.

Unrelated: Shang Chi was SICK! I hope y'all get a chance to see it. I went in with very little familiarity with the character, and having only seen the teaser trailer ages ago and what a delight!

[Drops Of Venus]

I think a writer will definitely inevitably expand upon it. I just hope it doesn't open Pandora's box to writers always bringing it up.

But yea, "trauma porn" describes it perfectly I think. I personally think the best way to handle it is maybe having Kate confront her attacker(s) and show she has made peace with it. And I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to make light of rape, but maybe she forgives them? Again I'm not trying to make light of the subject, but I feel like Kate would kind of feel like the incident made her stronger and made her into the person she is so she no longer bares resentment. Like she track them down, forgives them, decides not to report it (cause maybe they turned their life around), but still beats their ass just to prove they could never do that to her again even on their best day.

Considering how much writers tend to throw sexual assault into female characters history (which isn't all too unrealistic from real life since most women have experienced such their entire lives), it would be nice to see it handled differently.

They definitely won't make the assault a part of her history for the MCU though.

Again, I can't stress enough, that I'm not trying to make sexual assault seem like something light, it's just a thought.

I personally wouldn't write any story focusing on her assaulter, 'cause to me, they don't matter. Like, sure, it would be nice to see Kate kicking their ass and all, but what I liked about how Heinberg wrote her backstory is that the focus was never on the assault or the assaulter. It was about Kate and how she was stronger because of it. It was her journey of healing and picking up the pieces afterward, and that's what I would like to see more of: her moving forward, and not having to look back. Once upon a time, it was stated that Kate was a volunteer on women shelters, so I think that's a good place to start: a story in which she dedicates her time to help vulnerable women who might have gone through something similar to her. I would also like to see more of her going to therapy and just talking about her feelings now that she's older.

As a matter of fact, therapy is something a lot of the YA members could use. Like, how has Cassie dealt with coming back from the dead? How has Billy dealt with... everything? Teddy, surprisingly, never had too much focus on his mental health either, despite probably needing it ever since witnessing the murder of his mother. If Tommy and David didn't need therapy before, they certainly will after X-Factor. And I guess we can throw America in that mix now too after finding out her whole life has been a lie. I would love if an upcoming YA book just opens with all of them sitting down and talking about their feelings for once.

Given the quality of the Disney+ series thus far, I'd prefer the Young Avengers land their own series, as they progressively get introduced over time, and if they later get incorporated into the films, so be it.

Unrelated: Shang Chi was SICK! I hope y'all get a chance to see it. I went in with very little familiarity with the character, and having only seen the teaser trailer ages ago and what a delight!

The more I think about, the more that's what I want too. Streaming is the future, and now that Disney allegedly sees Disney+ as their biggest asset in the current, post-pandemic market, YA getting their own show could really be just as huge as them getting their own movie. They can always guest or even star in spin-off movies later on, but I really want Young Avengers to be a special event series, much like Avengers feels like an event movie franchise.

[Digifiend]

I don't think its that irrational. Especially when the only Billy we've had in the MCU is a little kid and there's nothing on Teddy at all. I would say being worried that they'll try to avoid the relationship at all through something dumb or minimize it so its barely there isn't too out there.

I mean how long has the MCU been around and how long has it taken for us to get an openly LGBT hero? Heck they're not even going to be a 'main' character. Having to wait 4-5 more years on top of that doesn't exactly engender trust that they won't screw up on the Teddy/Billy front.

Over a decade, started in 2008.

Though that's small potatoes... Power Rangers is 28 years old and just got it's first LGBTQ (lesbian) ranger.

[Journey]

Like I said it's irrational this fandom is in such a rush to get to the gay people were sending Julian Hillard death threats & **** that's weird, you can't have Billy without Teddy he'll come when he comes. And considering YA will probably be a Disney plus show especially since all the characters so far exception being Cassie & America are being introduced through Disney plus. I'm sure Billy & Teddy will get to fall in love on screen everyone just needs to chill out it's years away I'm sure of it just be patient.

[Will Evans]

Over a decade, started in 2008.

Though that's small potatoes... Power Rangers is 28 years old and just got it's first LGBTQ (lesbian) ranger.

Actually the 2017 movie had a lesbian Ranger.

[Journey]

Kate & America had a cameo in Champions today cheering for the Repeal of Kamala's Law. Considering their both well over the age of 21 IDK why but ya know here we are.

[Drops Of Venus]

Kate & America had a cameo in Champions today cheering for the Repeal of Kamala's Law. Considering their both well over the age of 21 IDK why but ya know here we are.

Back in Outlawed #1, there was this cover that featured some of the Young Avengers (I think it was Kate, America and Tommy) and people wondered what role they could have on this story. At the time, someone even said that Outlawed was supposed to affect everyone, even young heroes who were 21 or more. Ultimately, it doesn't seem like the event ended up being as encompassing as originally planned, but maybe some ideas were thrown in there towards the end. Or maybe all they were ever supposed to do was be a moral support for the younger heroes. lol

[Dermie]

Yeah, just because the law didn't impact them directly doesn't mean they wouldn't have friends and fellow heroes who would be directly affected (Cassie Lang, for starters). Plus it wasn't all that long ago (Marvel Time) that the Young Avengers were starting out and had older heroes trying to shut them down, so they would certainly empathize all too well with young heroes being restricted and controlled.

[Digifiend]

Kate & America had a cameo in Champions today cheering for the Repeal of Kamala's Law. Considering their both well over the age of 21 IDK why but ya know here we are.

They're NOT well over 21. They should be around 20.

Outlawed #1 also had a panel showing the West Coast Avengers base about to be raided. Everyone except Clint on that team was affected by the law (and it did end up disbanding, Kid Omega joined X-Force and Gwenpool also went to Krakoa).

Back in Outlawed #1, there was this cover that featured some of the Young Avengers (I think it was Kate, America and Tommy) and people wondered what role they could have on this story. At the time, someone even said that Outlawed was supposed to affect everyone, even young heroes who were 21 or more. Ultimately, it doesn't seem like the event ended up being as encompassing as originally planned, but maybe some ideas were thrown in there towards the end. Or maybe all they were ever supposed to do was be a moral support for the younger heroes. lol

Don't forget COVID affected Outlawed. We know New Warriors was cancelled. But were other books planned that were never announced? Maybe the ex-YAs were meant to get something?

[Journey]

They're NOT well over 21. They should be around 20.

Outlawed #1 also had a panel showing the West Coast Avengers base about to be raided. Everyone except Clint on that team was affected by the law (and it did end up disbanding, Kid Omega joined X-Force and Gwenpool also went to Krakoa).

Don't forget COVID affected Outlawed. We know New Warriors was cancelled. But were other books planned that were never announced? Maybe the ex-YAs were meant to get something?

Again Kate turned 21 on Panel in Volume 2.

[Digifiend]

That contradicts everyone else's ages, as she would've needed to be 19 in volume 1 and yet appeared in a school uniform (she was actually 16). She should've been 18 in volume 2.