Young Avengers Appreciation - 2021

[Digifiend]

It's not that Wanda hasn't aged up enough. The ages were messed up from the start, this affects Wiccan, Speed and Hulkling. The writer of YA vol 1 didn't seem to realise that only about 14 years had passed in-universe since Fantastic Four #1. And logically, Billy and Tommy wouldn't have been born until about 8 years ago - and neither would Teddy who has to be from after the Kree-Skrull War started and Mar-Vell arrived on Earth. It took until Empyre for Teddy's to be explained (he was sent through space and time, and ended up arriving on Earth before Mar-Vell did).

[CosmiComic]

It's not that Wanda hasn't aged up enough. The ages were messed up from the start, this affects Wiccan, Speed and Hulkling. The writer of YA vol 1 didn't seem to realise that only about 14 years had passed in-universe since Fantastic Four #1. And logically, Billy and Tommy wouldn't have been born until about 8 years ago - and neither would Teddy who has to be from after the Kree-Skrull War started and Mar-Vell arrived on Earth. It took until Empyre for Teddy's to be explained (he was sent through space and time, and ended up arriving on Earth before Mar-Vell did).

That was kinda my point. Maybe if Marvel heroes actually aged at closer to normal, they wouldn't have to worry about stuff like this. The twins were born in the mid-80s and appeared roughly 2 decades later as teens. That's enough time for SW and Vision to age enough to be parents of teens, had Marvel actually allowed instead of keeping them in perpetually vague early 30s

[Drops Of Venus]

Just wanted to get some more information to relay to G. Boney about a question he had in a different thread.



Can anyone help me out? I originally told him that they twins were essentially reality warped into existence as teens, but...

There isn't a 100% certain answer to this, because Marvel never actually bothered to explain how exactly Billy and Tommy Maximoff became Billy Kaplan and Tommy Shepherd. Allan Heinberg originally wanted them to be THE Billy and Tommy Maximoff, explaining that they survived somehow and were adopted by the Kaplans and Shepherds, but they ended up not going in this direction, so the official canon is that Wiccan and Speed are just described as reincarnations of Wanda's original children, although there isn't any more clear explanation about how the reincarnation process happened and how it makes sense, chronologically wise. The only writer who came close to explain that was James Robinson on his Scarlet Witch series, where he raises two possibilities about the origins of Billy and Tommy (those explained by Journey on the last page). Al Ewing also wrote Billy referring to himself as a ''retro-reincarnation'' during his New Avengers run, implying time-travel was involved in his origin.

That was kinda my point. Maybe if Marvel heroes actually aged at closer to normal, they wouldn't have to worry about stuff like this. The twins were born in the mid-80s and appeared roughly 2 decades later as teens. That's enough time for SW and Vision to age enough to be parents of teens, had Marvel actually allowed instead of keeping them in perpetually vague early 30s

But then they would have to worry about other stuff, like the fact that the heroes would age out of their prime very quickly, leading to possible deaths or retirement of many characters. That would essentially force Marvel to stop publishing some of their most iconic characters, which I don't think was ever a viable option for them. I mean, even Billy and Teddy would be affected by that, since they would now be in their 30s and would probably never be allowed to be Young Avengers again. Sliding timescale actually gave the team an opportunity to exist for longer without things getting weird.

[CosmiComic]

There isn't a 100% certain answer to this, because Marvel never actually bothered to explain how exactly Billy and Tommy Maximoff became Billy Kaplan and Tommy Shepherd. Allan Heinberg originally wanted them to be THE Billy and Tommy Maximoff, explaining that they survived somehow and were adopted by the Kaplans and Shepherds, but they ended up not going in this direction, so the official canon is that Wiccan and Speed are just described as reincarnations of Wanda's original children, although there isn't any more clear explanation about how the reincarnation process happened and how it makes sense, chronologically wise. The only writer who came close to explain that was James Robinson on his Scarlet Witch series, where he raises two possibilities about the origins of Billy and Tommy (those explained by Journey on the last page). Al Ewing also wrote Billy referring to himself as a ''retro-reincarnation'' during his New Avengers run, implying time-travel was involved in his origin.



But then they would have to worry about other stuff, like the fact that the heroes would age out of their prime very quickly, leading to possible deaths or retirement of many characters. That would essentially force Marvel to stop publishing some of their most iconic characters, which I don't think was ever a viable option for them. I mean, even Billy and Teddy would be affected by that, since they would now be in their 30s and would probably never be allowed to be Young Avengers again. Sliding timescale actually gave the team an opportunity to exist for longer without things getting weird.

I think they could compromise with a shorter sliding time scale. Maybe each year is 4 years.

What I'm saying is, eventually these characters need to age and make room for newer ones

[Drops Of Venus]

I think they could compromise with a shorter sliding time scale. Maybe each year is 4 years.

That is the ''official'' sliding timescale, actually. I mean, it's a rule that they break all the time for convenience, but it has worked for some characters, like the Young Avengers themselves. Through the 1:4 timescale, the original team (other than Cassie) would turn 21 later this year, which is roughly the age Billy and Teddy are supposed to be at the moment.

What I'm saying is, eventually these characters need to age and make room for newer ones

I can understand why some fans would want that, out of a need of a beginning/middle/end type of narrative, but at the end of the day, Marvel is a company which sees them as IPs that make them money, so they will inevitably have to think about how to squeeze as much as they can from them in the long run. It's how businesses work.

I think if people want a more realistic/grounded approach towards time in a superhero narrative, they probably should stick to the MCU instead of comics, since they have actors who age alongside those roles over the years and eventually have to leave.

[CosmiComic]

That is the ''official'' sliding timescale, actually. I mean, it's a rule that they break all the time for convenience, but it has worked for some characters, like the Young Avengers themselves. Through the 1:4 timescale, the original team (other than Cassie) would turn 21 later this year, which is roughly the age Billy and Teddy are supposed to be at the moment.



I can understand why some fans would want that, out of a need of a beginning/middle/end type of narrative, but at the end of the day, Marvel is a company which sees them as IPs that make them money, so they will inevitably have to think about how to squeeze as much as they can from them in the long run. It's how businesses work.

I think if people want a more realistic/grounded approach towards time in a superhero narrative, they probably should stick to the MCU instead of comics, since they have actors who age alongside those roles over the years and eventually have to leave.

Well the Ultimate line was supposed to be that, but the writers confused gritty violence fir realism

[Wiccan]

There isn't a 100% certain answer to this, because Marvel never actually bothered to explain how exactly Billy and Tommy Maximoff became Billy Kaplan and Tommy Shepherd. Allan Heinberg originally wanted them to be THE Billy and Tommy Maximoff, explaining that they survived somehow and were adopted by the Kaplans and Shepherds, but they ended up not going in this direction, so the official canon is that Wiccan and Speed are just described as reincarnations of Wanda's original children, although there isn't any more clear explanation about how the reincarnation process happened and how it makes sense, chronologically wise. The only writer who came close to explain that was James Robinson on his Scarlet Witch series, where he raises two possibilities about the origins of Billy and Tommy (those explained by Journey on the last page). Al Ewing also wrote Billy referring to himself as a ''retro-reincarnation'' during his New Avengers run, implying time-travel was involved in his origin

I feel like Ewing using "retro-reincarnation" soon after Robinson came up with that "theory" on the Scarlet Witch solo isn't a coincidence. It's basically him pushing the idea that that's the right one.

Though, recently, I've been thinking about a whole story where the "real" Billy Kaplan whose body got stolen by Billy Maximoff(who didn't even know anything about all that as in a way he was still Billy Kaplan with all the memories and everything with just a little soul transplant), comes back in a new body as an ally of Mephisto trying to kill Billy and collect his soul for him.

[Drops Of Venus]

And speaking of chronological inconsistencies within Young Avengers lore, I wonder when Marvel will fix Eli's origin story for that same reason. People don't talk about it often enough, but his age also doesn't line up with his family's history at all. His grandparents met in the 40s and had children not too long after that. That would make his mom way too old to have mothered someone in his early 20s. At one point someone needs to retcon the Bradleys so the generation that came after Isaiah can age more in line with the sliding timescale. Now that the Bradleys are about to get an updated origin for the MCU, it's probably a good time to do the same in the comics.

I feel like Ewing using "retro-reincarnation" soon after Robinson came up with that "theory" on the Scarlet Witch solo isn't a coincidence. It's basically him pushing the idea that that's the right one.

I felt that too, and I'm ok with that. As I've said before, I like the time travel theory way more than the possession one.

Though, recently, I've been thinking about a whole story where the "real" Billy Kaplan whose body got stolen by Billy Maximoff(who didn't even know anything about all that as in a way he was still Billy Kaplan with all the memories and everything with just a little soul transplant), comes back in a new body as an ally of Mephisto trying to kill Billy and collect his soul for him.

I actually had a similar idea about Mephisto having minions trying to retrieve Billy's and Tommy's souls for him, but instead of another Billy/Tommy, I was thinking of creating new original characters who would be the remaining three fragments of his soul. For anyone who doesn't remember, Mephisto's soul was shattered in 5 different fragments by Franklin Richards, and two of them, as we know, became Billy and Tommy. We never got a story about the other three fragments, so I thought it would be cool if we got a reveal that those 3 other fragments became sentient beings as well, but instead of becoming good people like Billy and Tommy, they ended up being raised by Mephisto himself as his demonic children. So, obviously, they would have a very different upbringing and world view compared to Billy and Tommy, and would've grown up being trained by Mephisto to eventually go after their ''soul siblings'' to take them down.

[CosmiComic]

And speaking of chronological inconsistencies within Young Avengers lore, I wonder when Marvel will fix Eli's origin story for that same reason. People don't talk about it often enough, but his age also doesn't line up with his family's history at all. His grandparents met in the 40s and had children not too long after that. That would make his mom way too old to have mothered someone in his early 20s. At one point someone needs to retcon the Bradleys so the generation that came after Isaiah can age more in line with the sliding timescale. Now that the Bradleys are about to get an updated origin for the MCU, it's probably a good time to do the same in the comics.

If the serum makes them age slowly, couldn't they easily have kids in their 50s?

[Drops Of Venus]

If the serum makes them age slowly, couldn't they easily have kids in their 50s?

The issue here is that only Isaiah has the serum, not Faith (Eli's grandma). So even if you wanna argue that he aged slowly, you can't use that same argument for her. I think the best solution here is to say Isaiah aged very slowly and met Faith decades after the war, so they could keep shifting her age without having to change his connection to WWII. Or they could just cut any of his ties to WWII altogether and tie him to some other fictional war that can shift alongside the sliding timescale.

[CosmiComic]

The issue here is that only Isaiah has the serum, not Faith (Eli's grandma). So even if you wanna argue that he aged slowly, you can't use that same argument for her. I think the best solution here is to say Isaiah aged very slowly and met Faith decades after the war, so they could keep shifting her age without having to change his connection to WWII. Or they could just cut any of his ties to WWII altogether and tie him to some other fictional war that can shift alongside the sliding timescale.

They should've had the two meet during the 60s then

[MaximoffTrash]

I'm just glad to see him included in those type of things. A while back they were teasing a magic squad of sorts (that never came to be, unfortunately) and I was pissed at how Billy was never included. Recognize your magical majesty, Marvel!



I know Ewing had his own sci-fi take on Billy's powers, but I don't think anyone at Marvel considers him to not be a magic user. He wouldn't even be on that cover if that was the case.



LOL. I absolutely LOVE the idea of Billy just being a super privileged magic user who never needed to study for anything and just make things happen on the go with his reality warping, and most of the other magic users low-key can't stand his ass because they had to train hard for that **** instead of just being born with a infinite supply of chaos magic at their disposal, and he's like, super clueless about it. ''Wait, you guys read books for your spells? That's crazy... I never needed that, haha.'' [Everyone glares at the twink in a judgmental way]

I mean, if anything I will think most magic users will be used to this kind of stuff.
There are a lot of magic users who has innate magic advantage over others just because they are born that way.
Examples being Wanda, Daemon, Satana, Clea, Storm etc, while it's not exactly pleasant to be half-demon or cursed by one, they do have powers kinda not earned.(Storm being from the line of Priests of Oshtur doesn't really have drawbacks, but it's a weak buff compared to others if you know what I mean.)
Though Billy is kinda an extreme case with his natural power level and little to no worries about some ill-meaning deity/demon on his ass.(Like seriously, Mephisto doesn't seem to care, and Chthon also doesn't make a fuzz about his "indirect creation" who may become the Demiurge one day.)

[Journey]

Man I feel like writers are sitting on gold, like I know people are sick of Mephisto, but like he could be the perfect enemy for Billy & Tommy, like a shadow that hangs over both their heads. It seems very inconsistent to say the least that dude went through all that trouble to "kill" them & take their souls back the first time, that now he just ignores them in current time. With as powerful as Billy is, & as potentially powerful Tommy could be why wouldn't he want them back? I feel like Gillen was like the only writer to even imply on the Mephisto connection when he had that "Multiverse Billy who looked like a Mini Mephisto" during the final battle with Mother. IDK I feel theirs a story to be told I know Billy's off earth, but Tommy could get a great story out of it though I would prefer them both, have the twins be twins (ride or die) and go against Mephisto I would read TF out of that. *shrugs*

[Fokken]

I mean, truly, I would loooooove to see a Billy & TOMMY mini series dealing with the complexities of their existence and the challenges said existence produces by way of Mephisto. I want to say Sutekh(?) may have suggested once upon a time that if not Mephisto, then Mephisto's SON could be their Big Bad? Black Heart? I think he appeared not too long ago in a Miles Morales story? Might've been the Ultimate verse still so maybe it WAS a long time ago hahaha.

Anyway, point being, their lingering connection -- however that translates-- could be viewed as this wretched perversion because they are essentially living embodiments of LOVE crafted from a literal embodiment of evil and so there's some heavy themes to tackle in how such an entity (or their son) would feel resentment, disdain, fury, etc. and want to punish and/or corrupt and/or reclaim the source of that angst?
Maybe their respective bio-parents are targeted to punish them for their continued existence. Bring in Wanda and Vision in some capacity to entice freshly indoctrinated MCU stans.

I'd read that.

[Digifiend]

Or they could just cut any of his ties to WWII altogether and tie him to some other fictional war that can shift alongside the sliding timescale.

They can't. It's a point of Isaiah's backstory that he got the super soldier serum before Steve Rogers did.