The Kurt Wagner / Nightcrawler Appreciation 2021

[Anduinel]

First scripted pages up at AIPT.
Si says they’re out of order.
Beware of spoilers.
https://aiptcomics.com/2021/03/26/ma...ok-way-of-x-1/

Ooooh, yeah. This is the good stuff. <3

[Su_Whisterfield]

Ooooh, yeah. This is the good stuff. <3

Sounds interesting, sounds like the sort of Krakoa story I’ve been hankering for.
Apparently it’s the last day to order Way of X. Not that it much use to me, our comics shop is still closed until mid-April, even though lockdown is starting to ease.

4014F85F-0581-474D-BB79-4D892168EE51.jpg

[cinnaminion]

I only ever get digital comics anymore. All the comics stores in the area I grew up closed when I was in college. The nearest one left was an hour's drive and I don't know if it's still open anymore. Then I moved overseas and it got way harder to find English comics, especially new ones. So now I'm only digital. I would probably prefer digital comics anyway - it's nice not to have clutter from single print issues, and it's nice not to have to go out and find them, etc - but some of them are really small on my screen and hard to read. Sometimes I can't even zoom in! (Not sure how it is with Marvel comics, but I bought The Adventure Zone for Kindle and you only zoom in on the text boxes and they're STILL too small to prevent eye strain :P) And even when I can... you don't get to enjoy the art in the same way. Digital still isn't tailored well enough to comics in most cases. Bit of a bummer.

[Su_Whisterfield]

I only ever get digital comics anymore. All the comics stores in the area I grew up closed when I was in college. The nearest one left was an hour's drive and I don't know if it's still open anymore. Then I moved overseas and it got way harder to find English comics, especially new ones. So now I'm only digital. I would probably prefer digital comics anyway - it's nice not to have clutter from single print issues, and it's nice not to have to go out and find them, etc - but some of them are really small on my screen and hard to read. Sometimes I can't even zoom in! (Not sure how it is with Marvel comics, but I bought The Adventure Zone for Kindle and you only zoom in on the text boxes and they're STILL too small to prevent eye strain :P) And even when I can... you don't get to enjoy the art in the same way. Digital still isn't tailored well enough to comics in most cases. Bit of a bummer.

Yeah, the tech is a bit behind the curve, 99% of my comics are digital now too.

[Proxy]

I only ever get digital comics anymore. All the comics stores in the area I grew up closed when I was in college. The nearest one left was an hour's drive and I don't know if it's still open anymore. Then I moved overseas and it got way harder to find English comics, especially new ones. So now I'm only digital. I would probably prefer digital comics anyway - it's nice not to have clutter from single print issues, and it's nice not to have to go out and find them, etc - but some of them are really small on my screen and hard to read. Sometimes I can't even zoom in! (Not sure how it is with Marvel comics, but I bought The Adventure Zone for Kindle and you only zoom in on the text boxes and they're STILL too small to prevent eye strain :P) And even when I can... you don't get to enjoy the art in the same way. Digital still isn't tailored well enough to comics in most cases. Bit of a bummer.

I buy digital mostly, but some of my comic shops deliver so I’ve pre-ordered Way of X book. (I prefer actually holding a book and hoarding it away when possible). Hoping this is good book, I want to support Nightcrawler getting some spotlight!

[taozen]

Over the last few years, Kurt has barely been used in any significant way. What was the most recent significant character development that Kurt has received and how long ago was it?

[cinnaminion]

Depends what you count as character development. Some might say it was when he came back soulless and immortal from being dead, but since they didn't do anything with that angle (like all his storylines), it's hard to say that "developed" him. After that, he sided with I think Magneto? instead of Ororo in the battle with the Inhumans... which could have been interesting, but had no effect after the fact. And he had a mental breakdown in Extraordinary that eventually led to an uneasy recovery and then him killing the weakened Apocalypse to save Piotr... which also could have been interesting but had no effect after the fact. In Gold he dated Rachel and enjoyed it apparently to point of planning on proposing, until she broke it off. That could have been development if their relationship had been handled better and if he... referenced at all afterward... (He did at least once to Jean in Red though.) Lol. That's the big problem with X-books, I would say, between Schism and until HoxPox - what happened in them just didn't matter.

I personally really loved him in Age of X: Amazing Nightcrawler, so for me, I would say that's what I'd count as real character development. Obviously, that was Age of X... so... Even so, it was a fun, fresh take on him that didn't betray who I think he really is. It's downside is, since it was just an side story to the main Age of X adventure, what happened in it didn't matter. And then since it was Age of X, it ultimately didn't matter at all, lol. Sensing a theme...

Things I've enjoyed during the two year "dry spell" we've had while he does basically nothing in Krakoa: I liked his "make more mutants" edict lol. I liked his moment with Scott discussing the No Place and Crucible. And I liked his letters with Kate... ok, the last is definitely not development but it was a nice touch. The former two I will count as minor development because I think they are going to matter to certain degrees in the future. But I can't say for sure it'll be "significant" development.

[Proxy]

Depends what you count as character development. Some might say it was when he came back soulless and immortal from being dead, but since they didn't do anything with that angle (like all his storylines), it's hard to say that "developed" him. After that, he sided with I think Magneto? instead of Ororo in the battle with the Inhumans... which could have been interesting, but had no effect after the fact. And he had a mental breakdown in Extraordinary that eventually led to an uneasy recovery and then him killing the weakened Apocalypse to save Piotr... which also could have been interesting but had no effect after the fact. In Gold he dated Rachel and enjoyed it apparently to point of planning on proposing, until she broke it off. That could have been development if their relationship had been handled better and if he... referenced at all afterward... (He did at least once to Jean in Red though.) Lol. That's the big problem with X-books, I would say, between Schism and until HoxPox - what happened in them just didn't matter.

I personally really loved him in Age of X: Amazing Nightcrawler, so for me, I would say that's what I'd count as real character development. Obviously, that was Age of X... so... Even so, it was a fun, fresh take on him that didn't betray who I think he really is. It's downside is, since it was just an side story to the main Age of X adventure, what happened in it didn't matter. And then since it was Age of X, it ultimately didn't matter at all, lol. Sensing a theme...

Things I've enjoyed during the two year "dry spell" we've had while he does basically nothing in Krakoa: I liked his "make more mutants" edict lol. I liked his moment with Scott discussing the No Place and Crucible. And I liked his letters with Kate... ok, the last is definitely not development but it was a nice touch. The former two I will count as minor development because I think they are going to matter to certain degrees in the future. But I can't say for sure it'll be "significant" development.

I’m torn on the subject. On one hand I agree that Kurt hasn’t had much development in a good while and what he does get (or could get) sort of fizzles out and is never brought up again. But I’m not sure I would want all development to stick. Writers get to really mess with the characters and sometimes I’m glad when what’s been done is never spoken of. On the other hand there’s plenty I wish was permanent. Sadly I can’t have it both ways

[From The Shadows]

I’m torn on the subject. On one hand I agree that Kurt hasn’t had much development in a good while and what he does get (or could get) sort of fizzles out and is never brought up again. But I’m not sure I would want all development to stick. Writers get to really mess with the characters and sometimes I’m glad when what’s been done is never spoken of. On the other hand there’s plenty I wish was permanent. Sadly I can’t have it both ways

Ignoring things never really erases it though, for me I would rather they retcon things or things back because I'll always be aware. I usually don't like them but... and plenty I wish was permanent and stuck... Nightcrawler keeping with his evolution that happened overseas in Excalibur like Reload, Revolutions, Amazing etc.

[cinnaminion]

I’m torn on the subject. On one hand I agree that Kurt hasn’t had much development in a good while and what he does get (or could get) sort of fizzles out and is never brought up again. But I’m not sure I would want all development to stick. Writers get to really mess with the characters and sometimes I’m glad when what’s been done is never spoken of. On the other hand there’s plenty I wish was permanent. Sadly I can’t have it both ways

Maybe not, but I’d pick the messy side for sure. It’s not that I worship continuity. Comic writers may not be familiar with X-history and it’s looong so I don’t blame them for picking and choosing. I don’t need every detail preserved for posterity.

What I want are compelling stories with a dynamic lead, with the caveat that it’s not just a free-for-all on character traits. They still have to stick to the core concept of who they are. I guess that’s something a bit unique to books that have been ongoing for such a long time like X-men. I doubt I’d feel as BETRAYED! when a character I’m getting to know does something that seems atypical as I might with an X-man who, despite being a 5-mug-a-day caffeine junkie in comics for forty years, now according to Writer-For-Hire-SOMEONESOMEONE absolutely Hates the stuff. :P

Wolverine - love him, but he’s in a category of his own. He’s got TOO much going on. Almost anything that happens to him now is icing on top of icing on top of an icing tower beneath which somewhere we’ve heard tell is a cake. Kurt (really, any other X-man)'s got room to grow - that’s why I buy comics, to freaking read about it. If I don’t like a story, I will get over it. Always have done.

Like, I know lots of people hate his father being Azazel, one of the few “new” things (ok, it happened like… twenty years ago? that’s not so new…) about him that has actually stuck. Heck, Azazel even made it into the movies, and did the dirty with Mystique - and they still hedged on actually connecting movie Crawler to either of them which is endlessly hilarious to me. Anyway, I know people still hate that, but how much has it really changed who Nightcrawler is? The Draco, I think that arc was called, was five issues long and at the end Kurt says to Xavier, “I don’t really care who my biological father is because you’ve been more of a real father to me all along.” So things instantly went back to status quo until… uh, just a few years ago.

Hmm… if nothing else, this conversation serves to remind me that it does often take comic books a long long time to build on “development.” Sometimes decades. Same thing happened with the big reveal that his mom was indeed Mystique, which everyone had already accepted as fact becuase it’d been so very long since the first hint. Heh. I guess I’m just impatient not to be dead before the next Crawler-related bomb goes off

But pretty much, if they tell a story and I hate it, I’ll grumble and then move on. If they tell the story and I LOVE it?? Then I’ll remember it forever.

[Proxy]

Well said 'cinnaminion' and 'From the shadows'.

True ignoring things never erases what happened and I think fans tend to pick and choose what sticks with them so we create our own vision of character development.

Thinking about it I would prefer it when existing developments are re-molded, added to or altered rather than trying to pretend they never happened. Of course you wouldn't be able to please everyone but it would be something towards fleshing out more stories for existing characters and possibly being able to add something fresh.

But I agree it can take forever! Especially when some characters (like wolverine) have had more attention. Maybe it's the sheer number of characters now and the fact writers don't stay with books very long anymore that make long term focus on one character almost impossible.

Whatever development happens I agree that I would at least like writers to stick to their core concept. People can change and grow over time (yay! character development) but not to the point where someone becomes unrecognizable. Especially from one book to another.

This is not the only way to develop a character of course but one thing that continuously bugs me about Kurt's consistency is the sporadic power set (which I'm sure a lot of characters suffer from too). He gets an 'upgrade' then it's removed without explanation (Bamfs, lost soul immortality). What happened? Could he still summon bamfs if he wanted? Where is his soul now? Even way back when he could once turn invisible in the shadows, then he couldn't; and it appears from Bobs art in Way of X that he can do that again. I personally enjoy a little context and it gives writers a chance to explore how physical changes affects us emotionally and psychologically. How do we adapt to life with new skills/bodies/abilities?

What I thought was really interesting was when he died saving Hope and teleported miles to get back to the X-men (I can't remember exact distance but way beyond his usual capabilities). I wanted that to be brought up again, how did he do that? It implies Kurt's actually capable of it but what holds him back from achieving it? Sadly, he was busy being dead so it's not been brought up again.

[cinnaminion]

Thinking about it I would prefer it when existing developments are re-molded, added to or altered rather than trying to pretend they never happened. Of course you wouldn't be able to please everyone but it would be something towards fleshing out more stories for existing characters and possibly being able to add something fresh.

That's a good idea. Exactly - nothing's set in stone, it's both a curse and a blessing - if a story is disliked someone new could come along with a fresh take on it. That's the advantage of being a never-ending story lol.

This is not the only way to develop a character of course but one thing that continuously bugs me about Kurt's consistency is the sporadic power set (which I'm sure a lot of characters suffer from too). He gets an 'upgrade' then it's removed without explanation (Bamfs, lost soul immortality). What happened? Could he still summon bamfs if he wanted? Where is his soul now? Even way back when he could once turn invisible in the shadows, then he couldn't; and it appears from Bobs art in Way of X that he can do that again. I personally enjoy a little context and it gives writers a chance to explore how physical changes affects us emotionally and psychologically. How do we adapt to life with new skills/bodies/abilities?

Super agree. I really disliked the bamfs. They were sort of fun in WatXM, but mostly because I assumed they were leading to something Crawler-related. And they had individual bits I liked - Pickles, and stealing Logan's whiskey, etc. But then in Amazing they were so cute... why? It was more like the style in the old days, sure, but it was drastically different from how they looked in WatXM. And they stayed that way. Idk, I guess also personally, I don't enjoy Crawler having an entourage of baby Crawlers. I felt it was a bit anime. But I'm also not cool with the "the whole kit and caboodle just teleported out of existence!" way of handling it.

Same with the immortality. I guess, what with Krakoa, that issue became moot. But what about the little problem with his soul?? I'm sorta kinda wondering if that miiight turn out to be relevant in Way of X. I admit it's unlikely but you never know. Last I heard, Azazel is in Krakoa, so at least they kept the bit where his dad comes to the human world... that implies that the rest might not be as forgotten as we feel right now. Then again, they do cherry pick.

I loooove when he blends in with the shadows.

What I thought was really interesting was when he died saving Hope and teleported miles to get back to the X-men (I can't remember exact distance but way beyond his usual capabilities). I wanted that to be brought up again, how did he do that? It implies Kurt's actually capable of it but what holds him back from achieving it? Sadly, he was busy being dead so it's not been brought up again.

Another time that springs to mind is when he was on a crashing plane with Chamber, and blind teleported to Germany I think. I forget where they were - somewhere in Europe - but it was an unusually large teleport for him. He seems able to do it under a lot of stress. I prefer power limits so it doesn't bother me that he can't do it more easily, but I def think there could be an interesting story in how he might try to improve his usual distance (which has been rather farther than the original 2 miles for a pretty long time though). Speaking of, I remember he had a teleporting contest with Pixie in Inferno way back when. Memory is hazy but I feel like they pretty much ignored any limits either of them might have. Just confirmed that Pixie is faster haha.

[From The Shadows]

I was just saying I saw Kurt as a bugs bunny. Kurt's line to Scott close to the end and how he says it. LOL.

[From The Shadows]

Kurt's gone up in the world. Latest installment of it will be Way of X hopefully.

[From The Shadows]

TA: Fanon is that Jimaine dyes her hair. How about a "no prize?" Or she uses her powers.