The Defenders Appreciation 2021

[Phoenixx9]

Was the Surfer one of the original Defenders? I always thought that Dr Strange,the Sub-Mariner and the Hulk were the 3 original members

Good question Ken Ashcroft. You may get 2 answers: No and Yes.

The team of Dr Strange, Namor and Hulk (no SS) first appeared in Marvel Feature stories (3 in total, if I remember correctly) as the Defenders.

However, when the official Defenders book started shortly thereafter, Silver Surfer was indeed present. Within a few issues, Valkyrie became the fifth member of the Defenders.

[Ken Ashcroft]

Good question Ken Ashcroft. You may get 2 answers: No and Yes.

The team of Dr Strange, Namor and Hulk (no SS) first appeared in Marvel Feature stories (3 in total, if I remember correctly) as the Defenders.

However, when the official Defenders book started shortly thereafter, Silver Surfer was indeed present. Within a few issues, Valkyrie became the fifth member of the Defenders.

Hmm... it sounds more of a no than a yes but thanks for the reply anyway, Phoenixx9.

[Phoenixx9]

Hmm... it sounds more of a no than a yes but thanks for the reply anyway, Phoenixx9.

Most fans, even many fans of Defenders (excluding the most astute Defenders Fans on here of course!) are not aware of the Marvel Feature arc. If that is the case, they would count SS. Indeed, MF seems to have been a "test run" to see if an ongoing book would do well. It did, but of course others members were part of the team for it to do well.

[Ken Ashcroft]

I guess it’s kind of like Captain America with the Avengers. He wasn’t there at the beginning but in subsequent years was granted ‘founders status’ and is probably the member that fans associated most with the group to such an extent that most would name him as an original Avenger if asked who they thought the original team were.

[Phoenixx9]

I guess it’s kind of like Captain America with the Avengers. He wasn’t there at the beginning but in subsequent years was granted ‘founders status’ and is probably the member that fans associated most with the group to such an extent that most would name him as an original Avenger if asked who they thought the original team were.

True.

In the reverse, I also know fans that do not consider Hulk a founder of the Avengers because he left after the very first issue.

In a combination, I have heard people state the 5 Avengers founders were Thor, Iron Man, Cap and Antman and the Wasp.

[Dermie]

True.

In the reverse, I also know fans that do not consider Hulk a founder of the Avengers because he left after the very first issue.

In a combination, I have heard people state the 5 Avengers founders were Thor, Iron Man, Cap and Antman and the Wasp.

In-story, the founders are officially consider Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Pym and Wasp. That was established during the Busiek/Perez run. Cap was retroactively granted founder status.

Hulk's standing with the Avengers has improved (off and on) since that time, with him actually serving a stint or two as an active member again--so his founder status may have been officially reinstated as well.

[Gaastra]

Didn't hulk ask cap to restore his avengers status in return for helping fight thanos in infinity guantlet?

[Phoenixx9]

In-story, the founders are officially consider Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Pym and Wasp. That was established during the Busiek/Perez run. Cap was retroactively granted founder status.

Hulk's standing with the Avengers has improved (off and on) since that time, with him actually serving a stint or two as an active member again--so his founder status may have been officially reinstated as well.

Yes, officially, as you state, this is true.

But I was referring to fans (unofficially) and how they view the members.

[Kurt Busiek]

In-story, the founders are officially consider Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Pym and Wasp. That was established during the Busiek/Perez run. Cap was retroactively granted founder status.

In-story, the founders are Thor, Iron Man, Hank, the Wasp and the Hulk. The Hulk's founder status -- in terms of having Avengers-charter founder powers -- was revoked and Cap was given those powers. But that's about Avengers bureaucracy, not history.

Cap has the powers and privileges of a founder, but he wasn't there. The Hulk is a founder who has been stripped of those powers/privileges, but was historically there.

Kind of like how Rob Liefeld will always be an Image founder, but he's no longer an Image partner.

[Reviresco]

Was the Surfer one of the original Defenders? I always thought that Dr Strange,the Sub-Mariner and the Hulk were the 3 original members

Good question Ken Ashcroft. You may get 2 answers: No and Yes.

The team of Dr Strange, Namor and Hulk (no SS) first appeared in Marvel Feature stories (3 in total, if I remember correctly) as the Defenders.

However, when the official Defenders book started shortly thereafter, Silver Surfer was indeed present. Within a few issues, Valkyrie became the fifth member of the Defenders.

Hmm... it sounds more of a no than a yes but thanks for the reply anyway, Phoenixx9.

I don't think Silver Surfer actually appears in the first issue of the Defenders book, except as someone who attacked Namor off panel, IIRC.

Well, it's even a bit more complicated than that. There were two proto-Defenders groups also. The first was a weird cross over between the Doctor Strange, Hulk and Sub-Mariner titles. Basically, Roy Thomas 'started' a story in the last issue of Doctor Strange, the plotlines showed up in Hulk, and then finished off in Subby 22 -- AND it involved Barbara Norriss (and the Nameless One), so technically Val's body is involved.

After that, there was a two issue arc in Namor's book (33 and 34 IIRC), where Namor gathered the Hulk and Silver Surfer together (in an issue titled Titans Three) to save earth from a dysfunctional weather control station the Americans were about to go online with, and they fought the Avengers!

In none of these stories are they referred to as the team Defenders, but they are often included in Defenders collections.

[Phoenixx9]

I don't think Silver Surfer actually appears in the first issue of the Defenders book, except as someone who attacked Namor off panel, IIRC.

Well, it's even a bit more complicated than that. There were two proto-Defenders groups also. The first was a weird cross over between the Doctor Strange, Hulk and Sub-Mariner titles. Basically, Roy Thomas 'started' a story in the last issue of Doctor Strange, the plotlines showed up in Hulk, and then finished off in Subby 22 -- AND it involved Barbara Norriss (and the Nameless One), so technically Val's body is involved.

After that, there was a two issue arc in Namor's book (33 and 34 IIRC), where Namor gathered the Hulk and Silver Surfer together (in an issue titled Titans Three) to save earth from a dysfunctional weather control station the Americans were about to go online with, and they fought the Avengers!

In none of these stories are they referred to as the team Defenders, but they are often included in Defenders collections.

Ah, my thanks, Rev. I thought you would have it together! I knew there was more, but could not quite remember it all, lol. I really need my Defenders Omnibus!

I personally always consider Doc, Subby, SS, Hulk and Val as the original core members, so I am all good.

[Dermie]

In-story, the founders are Thor, Iron Man, Hank, the Wasp and the Hulk. The Hulk's founder status -- in terms of having Avengers-charter founder powers -- was revoked and Cap was given those powers. But that's about Avengers bureaucracy, not history.

Cap has the powers and privileges of a founder, but he wasn't there. The Hulk is a founder who has been stripped of those powers/privileges, but was historically there.

Kind of like how Rob Liefeld will always be an Image founder, but he's no longer an Image partner.

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. Sorry I wasn't clear enough there--I didn't mean to imply the Avengers were trying to do some revisionist history to the actual forming of the team.

[Ken Ashcroft]

I personally always consider Doc, Subby, SS, Hulk and Val as the original core members, so I am all good.

I would consider Nighthawk as well, especially as he was the first one that really tried to organise the group as a genuine established team. Plus he’s probably the only longtime member (along with the Surfer) that never ran off to join the Avengers.

I would love Kyle Richmond, whether in his Nighthawk guise or not to come back and be part of any new Defenders book.

[Reviresco]

In-story, the founders are Thor, Iron Man, Hank, the Wasp and the Hulk. The Hulk's founder status -- in terms of having Avengers-charter founder powers -- was revoked and Cap was given those powers. But that's about Avengers bureaucracy, not history.

Cap has the powers and privileges of a founder, but he wasn't there. The Hulk is a founder who has been stripped of those powers/privileges, but was historically there.

Kind of like how Rob Liefeld will always be an Image founder, but he's no longer an Image partner.

The Hulk as the Rob Liefeld of the Avengers. LOL!

Until the movies, I never really thought of the Hulk as an Avenger. I mean, he didn't really show up again with them in the comics until then, IIRC. Hulk has always been a Defender, IMO.

[Reviresco]

I would consider Nighthawk as well, especially as he was the first one that really tried to organise the group as a genuine established team. Plus he’s probably the only longtime member (along with the Surfer) that never ran off to join the Avengers.

I would love Kyle Richmond, whether in his Nighthawk guise or not to come back and be part of any new Defenders book.

I tend to agree. I think Nighthawk and Val are pretty much core Defenders.