Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2021

[Pav]

I guess it's the ultimate indictment on how editorial couldn't give less of anything to the PAD run...
I flipped through the run recently one more time and it's kinda shocking just how "do whatever" it was...

I like PAD's Spider-Man work, especially the early stuff, but that series always read like he was phoning it in. Considering he never had warm words for the Clone Saga I wonder if editorial even thought before choosing him.

I concur. The first five issues are a mess (although there’s some decent Bagley art). Without a doubt the best issue was #7, when he confronted Death to save Kaine. The following issue with the editorial laziness about Ben’s hair also really bothered me at the time. But overall I liked the Slingers arc. Then I liked the Mysterio/Sauron/Damnation tie-in stuff less, but still readable. At the time I tricked myself into thinking it was better than it was, because it was PAD and Ben and Kaine, but the truth is these issues were average at best. The art was also very inconsistent around this time, and Ben's supporting cast (Diva, the bodyguard, Aunt June, dying kid) was absolutely charmless and one dimensional. The only one with any depth was Kaine’s veteran center girlfriend. … then issues 24-25 happened, and those two are some of the worst comics I’ve ever read from PAD. Hell, worst comics I’ve read period. Not only was it totally out of character compared to everything PAD had seemingly built Ben towards, but it just read like it had been put together slapdash at the last moment. There was nothing organic about it. And the art was horrid as well. Spidergeddon is written as if those two issues never happened and I like to believe they didn’t either.

PAD was clearly onboard with the Clone Conspiracy version of Ben - someone who's damaged and on the fringe, since all his interviews went on about how he's nearly deranged and just doesn't know what he wants to be.

But then Marvel got cold feet over the backlash to the new costume (I quite liked it mouth aside) and probably to how they were just saying Ben is like Deadpool-lite now or something, and immediately brought the hoodie back and PAD began to swerve his plans pretty early on.

I still think the run has some nice moments in the bulk of it, but that the beginning and end are terrible.

I really think everyone nailed it here, regarding the mess that was PAD's Scarlet Spider series. Putting PAD on the book when he was never a fan of Ben Reilly seems obviously dumb now, but perhaps editorial was interested in his pitch. Perhaps it may be said that an intriguing pitch doesn't matter if the writer doesn't hold a certain amount reverence for the character(s) in question. Personally, I was down for the story -- I've always been interested in the notion of Ben exploring a morality beyond what he inherited from Peter -- but PAD's take on it left a lot to be desired. I do agree that the middle point of the series is the best after a beginning that felt all over the place and subplots seemingly tossed aside, with Damnation being a fun tie-in and the Slingers arc being the highlight of the run; Ben's questionable morality and the fallibility of the Slingers attempts at heroics worked better together than almost any other aspect of the series -- and yes, it's sort of ironic that Kaine's subplots were more interesting than Ben's. That being said, I do diverge from others regarding Ben's supporting cast: I kind of liked the idea of Ben creating a "funhouse mirror" version of Peter's family and friends. But, again, I don't think the execution was there to make it compelling enough. As far as the final issues go, it was clear that PAD only had so much room to wrap up plotlines that were still open. Misty being a robot made absolutely no sense to me; Kaine never found out who tried to hurt his girlfriend's brother. And the finale with Ben going crazy? Yes PAD, you're very clever: how ironic that doing the heroic thing caused Ben to become a villain; it's like an inverse of what happened with Peter and the burglar. But again, I think PAD's take simply failed because he never really understood who the character of Ben had been before; therefore, he wasn't able to take him to the next phase of his existence properly as a character.

FWIW, I choose to interpret that final issue differently than what was intended: Mephisto keeps telling Ben he's a villain, he knows he's a villain, etc. Ben insists this isn't true, and of course, as readers, we know that Ben is a true hero based on his past stories regardless of what PAD might want us to believe for the sake of his story. When Abigail brings him back to life, he 1) punches Misty through the (robotic) stomach, realizing he doesn't care that he acted without worrying about killing her; 2) attacks Kaine and his girlfriend, threatening to kill Kaine; and 3) the issue ends with him laughing hysterically to himself until the laughter turns into sobbing. My purposefully incorrect but necessary reading of this is that Ben's laughter/crying is a result of THINKING about attacking Kaine; I purport that we canonize the notion that he merely IMAGINED attacking Kaine, and that his troubled emotions express his realization that he's not E V I L -- but merely that he is a man who is suffering, emotionally and mentally, and that even heroes can want to do harm to others sometimes, as he did to Misty. It makes no sense that an evil man would lament his fall; he would embrace his "freedom" from the "chains of morality" or some ridiculousness like that. But Ben's emotional reaction may indicate a more nuanced understanding regarding his own moral state: someone who is broken but wants to be healed.

I think this works because of how Ben is portrayed in Spidergeddon: he's clearly not evil, or he wouldn't want to be "fixed" in the first place. Instead, he's willing to die a hero in the hopes that he can be brought back in such a way that the trauma he incurred will no longer affect him, which is what happens. But it's almost like he was already "fixed" before it happened within the context of the plot of that story.

In the end, PAD's series was certainly a dud. But it did give us the Scarlet - Slingers team-up I've always wanted, and I do think PAD did some positive work in the advancement of Ben and Kaine's relationship as brothers (esp. under my reading of the final issue).

-Pav, who appreciates the conversation being had...

[Pav]

The Lost Years and Redemption minis are probably the easiest Ben stories to get into and also quite good. The beginning of the Ben Reilly era (the contents of the first BR omnibus, more or less) is also quite good - you just have to accept that Ben is Spider-man and kind of roll with it.

I think the first part of the Clone Saga (maybe up through the Mark of Kaine or the Trial of Peter Parker? Probably not the Trial . . .) holds up pretty well - Ben and Peter meet in Power and Responsibility (across all 4 titles), then Peter is in ASM and SSM while Ben gets adjectiveless and Web for 4 months. They then get back together for a few issues across the 4 titles, then ASM 400 (May's death, a truly pantheon Spider-man story), Aftershocks, and the Mark of Kaine. The Trial of Peter Parker is a very, very mixed bag, but it closes off a bunch of storylines (the trial, Kaine's identity) which is why I didn't just stop at the Mark of Kaine.

Yeah, I'd second these. The start of the Clone Saga is pretty good, it's a shame that marketing drew it out so badly that it hurt everything in the process.

I guess I'd also reccommend Spider-Man/X-Men #3 (2008) from Gage, it's a well contained enough one-off that was his first story ever since the end of Clone Saga.

Those recommendations you got are pretty good. I also like the early Sensational issues even if they're pretty corny. Jurgens sets up the character well.

I love that Spider-Man/X-Men issue. I was so relieved Gage treated him seriously and not like a joke at the time.

I also thought that ‘Who was Ben Reilly?’ arc from the BND days was decent. The flashback scenes with him taking on Raptor and Kaine were pretty spot on for Ben’s characterization. Nothing special, but worth reading for Ben fans. It was great to see Kaine back after all those years.

'Spider-Man: Lost Years' miniseries
'Spider-Man: Redemption' miniseries
Sensational Spider-Man run (both Jurgens and Dezago/Wieringo's issues are the highlight of the Spider-Ben era for me... enough has been said about Jurgens' great run, but #8 by Dezago and Ringo with Ben taking on the Looter is one of the funniest comics not starring Deadpool)
'Revelations' arc, 'Web of Carnage' arc, 'Blood Brothers' arc are all great from that era as well.
ASM #400, 'Spider-Man: The Final Adventure' miniseries, 'Web of Death' arc are more Peter-centric than Ben-centric, but are from the Clone Saga era and are all worth reading as well.

This is all good stuff.

I agree that, for most people, the strongest and most enjoyable parts of the Clone Saga are going to be the initial arcs up until around The Trial of Peter Parker and then the majority of the issues when Ben takes over as Spider-Man, as well as the Lost Years and Redemption minis. The initial issues and the Ben-focused minis really do a great job of presenting Ben as someone we should care about, and by the time Ben is Spidey, he's become someone that Peter has come to care about. Seeing their dynamic grow is really one of the best aspects of the whole Saga, as is Kaine's whole deal as the damaged and jealous clone.

Of course, the middle is where the Saga tends to get sticky for people. There are certainly some bad stories, with Maximum Cloneage being the most obvious culprit, as well as some absolutely forgettable stories -- anyone remember much about Ben fighting the Lizard with Strongarm Armstrong? -- and I don't think anyone believes the Scarlet Spider issues deserve to win any awards. But consider, if you can, what it was like for a 10-12 year old Pav: seeing the title change to "Scarlet Spider" was mind-blowing to me, and I was enamored with Ben's relationships with both the New Warriors and the Green Goblin. The idea that Ben's adventures would look a little different was exciting -- that his allies and opponents wouldn't always match up with Peter's was something I couldn't wait to see explored (and we did get a little of that).

Also, I want to emphasize how awesome the Web of Carnage arc is. Ben's look as Spider-Carnage is maybe the coolest look in all of Spidey comics.

OH! There's also the Clone Saga miniseries that Tom Defalco and Howard Mackie wrote a few years back, giving us a stripped down version of the Clone Saga that purports to be closer to the initial Clone Saga proposal. It wasn't anything crazy-good or revealing, but for anyone who's looking to better understand Ben, it wouldn't hurt to give this mini a read, even if these aren't the "real" versions of the characters.

-Pav, who needs to get his hands on either the Clone Saga / Ben Reilly Complete Collections or the omnibus collections to replace his destroyed floppies...

[HypnoHustler]

I really think everyone nailed it here, regarding the mess that was PAD's Scarlet Spider series. Putting PAD on the book when he was never a fan of Ben Reilly seems obviously dumb now, but perhaps editorial was interested in his pitch. Perhaps it may be said that an intriguing pitch doesn't matter if the writer doesn't hold a certain amount reverence for the character(s) in question. Personally, I was down for the story -- I've always been interested in the notion of Ben exploring a morality beyond what he inherited from Peter -- but PAD's take on it left a lot to be desired. I do agree that the middle point of the series is the best after a beginning that felt all over the place and subplots seemingly tossed aside, with Damnation being a fun tie-in and the Slingers arc being the highlight of the run; Ben's questionable morality and the fallibility of the Slingers attempts at heroics worked better together than almost any other aspect of the series -- and yes, it's sort of ironic that Kaine's subplots were more interesting than Ben's. That being said, I do diverge from others regarding Ben's supporting cast: I kind of liked the idea of Ben creating a "funhouse mirror" version of Peter's family and friends. But, again, I don't think the execution was there to make it compelling enough. As far as the final issues go, it was clear that PAD only had so much room to wrap up plotlines that were still open. Misty being a robot made absolutely no sense to me; Kaine never found out who tried to hurt his girlfriend's brother. And the finale with Ben going crazy? Yes PAD, you're very clever: how ironic that doing the heroic thing caused Ben to become a villain; it's like an inverse of what happened with Peter and the burglar. But again, I think PAD's take simply failed because he never really understood who the character of Ben had been before; therefore, he wasn't able to take him to the next phase of his existence properly as a character.

FWIW, I choose to interpret that final issue differently than what was intended: Mephisto keeps telling Ben he's a villain, he knows he's a villain, etc. Ben insists this isn't true, and of course, as readers, we know that Ben is a true hero based on his past stories regardless of what PAD might want us to believe for the sake of his story. When Abigail brings him back to life, he 1) punches Misty through the (robotic) stomach, realizing he doesn't care that he acted without worrying about killing her; 2) attacks Kaine and his girlfriend, threatening to kill Kaine; and 3) the issue ends with him laughing hysterically to himself until the laughter turns into sobbing. My purposefully incorrect but necessary reading of this is that Ben's laughter/crying is a result of THINKING about attacking Kaine; I purport that we canonize the notion that he merely IMAGINED attacking Kaine, and that his troubled emotions express his realization that he's not E V I L -- but merely that he is a man who is suffering, emotionally and mentally, and that even heroes can want to do harm to others sometimes, as he did to Misty. It makes no sense that an evil man would lament his fall; he would embrace his "freedom" from the "chains of morality" or some ridiculousness like that. But Ben's emotional reaction may indicate a more nuanced understanding regarding his own moral state: someone who is broken but wants to be healed.

I think this works because of how Ben is portrayed in Spidergeddon: he's clearly not evil, or he wouldn't want to be "fixed" in the first place. Instead, he's willing to die a hero in the hopes that he can be brought back in such a way that the trauma he incurred will no longer affect him, which is what happens. But it's almost like he was already "fixed" before it happened within the context of the plot of that story.

In the end, PAD's series was certainly a dud. But it did give us the Scarlet - Slingers team-up I've always wanted, and I do think PAD did some positive work in the advancement of Ben and Kaine's relationship as brothers (esp. under my reading of the final issue).

-Pav, who appreciates the conversation being had...

I’m fine with your interpretation of the final issues. I’m also fine just pretending Ben cured Abigail and the last 2 issues never even happened. Spidergeddon says his death there was his 28th one, which seems to ignore his death in the Scarlet Spider book. I really was disappointed in those last 2 issues for all the reasons you listed. I think PAD did SS for the paycheck or because Marvel asked him. I never felt he had an affection for the character. The Slingers arc was good though (aside from editorial screwing up Ben’s hair) and I liked the twist of Hornet being Cyber. It’s very hard for me to go back and read those issues now though, knowing how poorly everything ended. Overall, I’d give the series… hmmn… a C grade (without #7 and the Slingers arc, it’d probably be a D-), while I’d give Yost’s SS series an A- (would be A, but the last couple issues weren’t great).

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

And now there’s not much space for Kaine, as Ben’s return has kinda crowded him out and made hime redundant.

I felt that way with Yost's run with Aracely running around with a hoodie and Ben being a perpetual reminder of Kaine's past sins.

I think there's plenty of room for Kaine to stick around, because he's still the spider that is willing to do whatever it takes. Ben always was intended to be more heroic, Miles is basically still brimming with optimism himself, and none of the other Spider girls have any sort of edge like Kaine does. The only thing that seems redundant is the shared name, but with Ben being Spidey for a while that shouldn't be an issue. Provided they even use Kaine again, since he's gone up in smoke since Spider-geddon.

FWIW, I choose to interpret that final issue differently than what was intended: Mephisto keeps telling Ben he's a villain, he knows he's a villain, etc. Ben insists this isn't true, and of course, as readers, we know that Ben is a true hero based on his past stories regardless of what PAD might want us to believe for the sake of his story. When Abigail brings him back to life, he 1) punches Misty through the (robotic) stomach, realizing he doesn't care that he acted without worrying about killing her; 2) attacks Kaine and his girlfriend, threatening to kill Kaine; and 3) the issue ends with him laughing hysterically to himself until the laughter turns into sobbing.

I think Misty being a robot is basically the cherry on top of the "no one is paying attention" sundae that BRSS turned into.

-She tells Mysterio she's searching for the "Wand of Hagatoon" or something that sounds similar to that before they end up in the temple where she is accidentally killed. When they do get to the temple, she's actually after something from Cyttorak.
-They say blood is required and the blood of someone they love IIRC. Mysterio accidentally stabs Misty, so it checks out.
-Then we find out Misty is actually a robot.

So it's magic that accepts artificial (ie inorganic) blood? What?

About the only one way they could try to make sense of this... nonsense is that the Misty Ben punched was a LMD Mysterio built AFTER what happened in the temple, before the start of Spencer's run. But the glowy eyes that were exactly what we were shown when she recovered in the temple don't line up.

And to help matters even further Spencer basically also ignores this take on Mysterio, since he's throwing out quips like nothing happened and loving the super villain life in his first arc. IIRC there was an Old Man Logan finale that had 616 Mysterio in it and he was still pretty fed up with the state of affairs, just trying to stay alive and not quipping left and forth.

Then again, it's not like they know what they're doing with Ben right now- we have to wait until Beyond starts, but we basically had Ben still being based in Vegas in the Conan story, then in Iron Man I think he's described as being in the NY area, and then the FCDB places him in Texas.

Well, anyway.

[HypnoHustler]

Then again, it's not like they know what they're doing with Ben right now- we have to wait until Beyond starts, but we basically had Ben still being based in Vegas in the Conan story, then in Iron Man I think he's described as being in the NY area, and then the FCDB places him in Texas.

Well, anyway.

Well… he is a perpetual nomad, so it kinda fits. At least you can ‘no prize’ it away, based on that aspect of his character. I remember when the Clone Saga had a bit of a re-evaluation in the early 2010s, the ‘Web’ anthology book had a short story with Ben Reilly as a teacher in Italy of all places. Up until then I had always figured his travels kept him to the continental US, but I guess Seward Trainer got him a good enough fraudulent passport.

It was a pretty good story. Much better than the other one that came out at the same time that had him moonlighting as a janitor with a goatee.

[Pav]

Then again, it's not like they know what they're doing with Ben right now- we have to wait until Beyond starts, but we basically had Ben still being based in Vegas in the Conan story, then in Iron Man I think he's described as being in the NY area, and then the FCDB places him in Texas.

Well, anyway.

I suppose this kind of tight continuity amongst every Marvel title was easier back in the days before the internet, when guys were working in the same office building and you could shout down the hall, "Hey bud, where was Ben Reilly stationed in his last appearance?"

Hyp's nomad explanation works just fine though.

Plus, I like to think both Ben and Kaine keep tabs on Peter while also trying to maintain some distance.

-Pav, who remembers that was originally Kaine's whole deal...

[Blanks]

Makes sense. I guess we don’t need to many Spiders running around New York ALL the time, being called Spider-Man/Woman/Girl. New York is big enough to share, but I like the idea of Ben being in his own area to make his “claim”, be it as Spider-Man or the Scarlet Spider. The nomad thing could still work for Ben, but his “aimless years” ended with him becoming Spider-Man before he “died”.

I saw his return as the Scarlet Spider in Vegas, not as nomadic again, but him just trying to catch his breath, again. Ben’s Tragedy is always having to start over again and again when the rug is pulled out from underneath him (in the past though that was mostly due to Kaine sabotaging his efforts).

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

Well… he is a perpetual nomad, so it kinda fits. At least you can ‘no prize’ it away, based on that aspect of his character.

Yeah, that does fit. But it seems like it basically ended up that way by pure chance, more than a deliberate choice to stick true to the character.

Much better than the other one that came out at the same time that had him moonlighting as a janitor with a goatee.

I guess that was also DeMatteis? I remember the Italy one from his backups, but this one skipped me entirely. I even reread the Raptor arc to make sure I wasn't misremembering stuff.

IIRC Slott claimed there was a plan to bring Ben around the BND era which would explain all the backups and "Who was Ben Reilly?" blurbs you'd see in Web or Amazing here and there. Given DeMatteis' backups he was probably involved. With Beyond coming up, it'd be great if anyone could get any info on what those plans that worked were (we do know Yost's whole "Clone Wars" thing so that's one).

[HypnoHustler]

Yeah, that does fit. But it seems like it basically ended up that way by pure chance, more than a deliberate choice to stick true to the character.

That’s Marvel in 2021 for you. The days of continuity police like Mark Gruenwald making sure things add up are looooong gone unfortunately.

I guess that was also DeMatteis? I remember the Italy one from his backups, but this one skipped me entirely. I even reread the Raptor arc to make sure I wasn't misremembering stuff.

I don’t remember who it was. It wasn’t bad, but just pretty generic and forgettable. Here’s a splash page I found. I always have trouble posting pictures here, so hope it shows up.

77192C60-C81F-45C6-B7AE-8C72F3FE034F.jpg

IIRC Slott claimed there was a plan to bring Ben around the BND era which would explain all the backups and "Who was Ben Reilly?" blurbs you'd see in Web or Amazing here and there. Given DeMatteis' backups he was probably involved. With Beyond coming up, it'd be great if anyone could get any info on what those plans that worked were (we do know Yost's whole "Clone Wars" thing so that's one).

Yes, I’m aware of Ben almost coming back during ‘Spider Island.’ They then modified those plans for Kaine instead, which fit well. But if he had to return, Ben coming back as a hero during ‘Spider Island’ would’ve been a far more preferable outcome for the character than his ignoble return as a villain obsessed with cloning during ‘Clone Conspiracy.’

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

Yes, I’m aware of Ben almost coming back during ‘Spider Island.’ They then modified those plans for Kaine instead, which fit well.’

Huh, that's the first time I've heard of it. So I guess there was something to it after all, because with Warren's talk of "true first born" and his obsession of repopulation and whatnot it just seemed like both Ben and Kaine were coming back to the fold as heroes.

[Spiderfang]

So I haven't collected anything Reilly-related since I picked up the final volume of Scarlet Spider, are there any new Ben-heavy trades or issues I should collect?

[HypnoHustler]

So I haven't collected anything Reilly-related since I picked up the final volume of Scarlet Spider, are there any new Ben-heavy trades or issues I should collect?

You mean since the end of PAD’s series? Nothing essential. If you’re a Ben completist (like me), I guess the Spidergeddon miniseries if you want to see how Ben was “reset.” He also randomly appeared in about 3 pages of a ‘Conan’ issue where he had a disposable fight with one of the Mary Sues in the book. He’s been having a nice guest starring role in Cantwell’s ‘Iron Man’ though and that’s run multiple issues. And of course the FCBD just came out.

ThatÂ’s about it since PADÂ’s series.

[Malachi]

I was so excited for Ben to actually be back but then Slott pitched what I'm still assuming is a pitch he wrote when he was 13-14. Or it was editorial mandated. Who knows.

Then PAD launched a comic that was just Marvel doubling down on a wrong decision hoping something good would come out of it. It was a level of stubbornheadness that I had come to expect from the regime that gave us OMD and OMIT.

Comics have this rational that some stories can just be thrown out there and if they don't pan out then just retcon and reverse them. The problem is that some stories just won't die. Shooter never intended for Hank Pym hiting Jan to be the story it became. John Byrne left a mark on Wanda and Vision that took decades to course correct. It's so much easier to destroy then it is to create. Even if you hold the belief that characters are malleable and can be easily changed then readers are another thing entirely. To get them to start reading is hard. To keep them is harder. To get them to come back if you lost them is even harder. To get them to overcome obstacles to come back. Now that is just foolish.

[HypnoHustler]

I was so excited for Ben to actually be back but then Slott pitched what I'm still assuming is a pitch he wrote when he was 13-14. Or it was editorial mandated. Who knows.

Then PAD launched a comic that was just Marvel doubling down on a wrong decision hoping something good would come out of it. It was a level of stubbornheadness that I had come to expect from the regime that gave us OMD and OMIT.

Comics have this rational that some stories can just be thrown out there and if they don't pan out then just retcon and reverse them. The problem is that some stories just won't die. Shooter never intended for Hank Pym hiting Jan to be the story it became. John Byrne left a mark on Wanda and Vision that took decades to course correct.

I agree. The most egregious example of this might be Carol Danvers giving birth to her own rapist.

[Huntsman Spider]

I was so excited for Ben to actually be back but then Slott pitched what I'm still assuming is a pitch he wrote when he was 13-14. Or it was editorial mandated. Who knows.

Then PAD launched a comic that was just Marvel doubling down on a wrong decision hoping something good would come out of it. It was a level of stubbornheadness that I had come to expect from the regime that gave us OMD and OMIT.

Comics have this rational that some stories can just be thrown out there and if they don't pan out then just retcon and reverse them. The problem is that some stories just won't die. Shooter never intended for Hank Pym hiting Jan to be the story it became. John Byrne left a mark on Wanda and Vision that took decades to course correct. It's so much easier to destroy then it is to create. Even if you hold the belief that characters are malleable and can be easily changed then readers are another thing entirely. To get them to start reading is hard. To keep them is harder. To get them to come back if you lost them is even harder. To get them to overcome obstacles to come back. Now that is just foolish.

I agree. The most egregious example of this might be Carol Danvers giving birth to her own rapist.

Pretty much, although I would say that particular incident was even more of a black mark on the Avengers as a whole for ignoring or being unaware of or oblivious to the signs that Carol was under psychic coercion by said rapist. Of course, that just goes to show that comic writers/editorial screwing with/up the characters we all love here is sadly nothing new or unusual.