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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Yeah, Gargoyle is pretty cool, too, and I wouldn't mind seeing Cantwell try his hand at a Scarlet Spider series.
    Maybe I'm biased by the artist absolutely nailing the Scarlet suit, but it does seem like Cantwell really gets Ben's voice.

    -Pav, who believes the secret to writing Ben is to actually write Peter...
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Maybe I'm biased by the artist absolutely nailing the Scarlet suit, but it does seem like Cantwell really gets Ben's voice.

    -Pav, who believes the secret to writing Ben is to actually write Peter...
    Maybe, but to expand on that, writing Ben is writing a Peter who didn't have or was cut off from the social support system that Peter usually benefits from, ending up completely alone and adrift in the world and having to rebuild his sense of identity and morality without the touchstones and guideposts he would otherwise depend on for his inner compass.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Maybe I'm biased by the artist absolutely nailing the Scarlet suit, but it does seem like Cantwell really gets Ben's voice.

    -Pav, who believes the secret to writing Ben is to actually write Peter...
    I disagree. If Ben was interchangeable with Peter, then people wouldn’t care about him. Ben has always had a distinct voice. It definitely has influence from Peter, but a bit more cynical, self-deprecating (almost insecure) and world weary. The difference between Peter and Ben is more subtle than Peter and Kaine, but it’s definitely there. Only a handful of writers, such as JM DeMatteis, Todd Dezago and (even though he hated him) Dan Jurgens have nailed Ben’s voice. Cantwell is writing a decent Ben. At least some of the lines seem like things that only Ben would say, not Peter.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    I disagree. If Ben was interchangeable with Peter, then people wouldn’t care about him. Ben has always had a distinct voice. It definitely has influence from Peter, but a bit more cynical, self-deprecating (almost insecure) and world weary. The difference between Peter and Ben is more subtle than Peter and Kaine, but it’s definitely there. Only a handful of writers, such as JM DeMatteis, Todd Dezago and (even though he hated him) Dan Jurgens have nailed Ben’s voice. Cantwell is writing a decent Ben. At least some of the lines seem like things that only Ben would say, not Peter.
    Pretty much, yeah.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Maybe I'm biased by the artist absolutely nailing the Scarlet suit, but it does seem like Cantwell really gets Ben's voice.

    -Pav, who believes the secret to writing Ben is to actually write Peter...
    Honestly, I feel like the only person who gets Ben's voice is DeMatteis.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Maybe, but to expand on that, writing Ben is writing a Peter who didn't have or was cut off from the social support system that Peter usually benefits from, ending up completely alone and adrift in the world and having to rebuild his sense of identity and morality without the touchstones and guideposts he would otherwise depend on for his inner compass.
    Yes, but it's still Peter Parker reacting to this experience. It's Peter Parker not being allowed live his own life and therefore having to create a new path, but it's still Peter.

    Someone said if they were interchangable, nobody would care about Ben. But we care about Ben because he is Peter. He's not a nameless clone to be discarded. He's Peter, trying to do what's right despite having his whole world taken from him.

    Obviously you're allowed to disagree, but I think any writer who forgets that Ben is still very much Peter is going to have problems writing the character.

    -Pav, who *cough* PAD *cough*...
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Yes, but it's still Peter Parker reacting to this experience. It's Peter Parker not being allowed live his own life and therefore having to create a new path, but it's still Peter.

    Someone said if they were interchangable, nobody would care about Ben. But we care about Ben because he is Peter. He's not a nameless clone to be discarded. He's Peter, trying to do what's right despite having his whole world taken from him.

    Obviously you're allowed to disagree, but I think any writer who forgets that Ben is still very much Peter is going to have problems writing the character.

    -Pav, who *cough* PAD *cough*...
    A fair point as well, though I would add that while clones do get a bad rap, they also invoke a lot of interesting philosophical and bioethical discussions and discourse. Given that clones in fiction are usually not just genetically identical, but also psychologically identical, it does bring up certain issues of ethics and responsibility in how they're addressed and treated by their creators and by their "source material," as it were.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Yes, but it's still Peter Parker reacting to this experience. It's Peter Parker not being allowed live his own life and therefore having to create a new path, but it's still Peter.

    Someone said if they were interchangable, nobody would care about Ben. But we care about Ben because he is Peter. He's not a nameless clone to be discarded. He's Peter, trying to do what's right despite having his whole world taken from him.

    Obviously you're allowed to disagree, but I think any writer who forgets that Ben is still very much Peter is going to have problems writing the character.

    -Pav, who *cough* PAD *cough*...
    I agree that in retrospect PAD’s SS series was a failure because he didn’t know (or care about) Ben’s voice. His Ben was TOO different from Peter. No one is saying that’s the way to go with writing Ben. It was a disappointment because of course PAD knows how to write Peter as he wrote some great Spidey stories in the past, but for whatever reason he didn’t know how to approach Ben. My overall point was Ben should be different enough to be distinct, but those differences should be exhibited in subtle ways. But his thought bubbles should never be like generic Peter Parker thought bubbles. Ben should always have his own voice.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    I agree that in retrospect PAD’s SS series was a failure because he didn’t know (or care about) Ben’s voice. His Ben was TOO different from Peter. No one is saying that’s the way to go with writing Ben. It was a disappointment because of course PAD knows how to write Peter as he wrote some great Spidey stories in the past, but for whatever reason he didn’t know how to approach Ben. My overall point was Ben should be different enough to be distinct, but those differences should be exhibited in subtle ways. But his thought bubbles should never be like generic Peter Parker thought bubbles. Ben should always have his own voice.
    All this, exactly.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #100
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    IMO the write way to write Ben is that he is Peter but with different life experiences.
    They still have identical memories up until the cloning took place in college. So Ben should have the same core personalities and feelings for the people that they knew that Peter has. He should love Aunt May as much as Peter, be just as attracted to the women in Peter's life, etc.
    The similarities and differences make Ben a fascinating character.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    IMO the write way to write Ben is that he is Peter but with different life experiences.
    They still have identical memories up until the cloning took place in college. So Ben should have the same core personalities and feelings for the people that they knew that Peter has. He should love Aunt May as much as Peter, be just as attracted to the women in Peter's life, etc.
    The similarities and differences make Ben a fascinating character.
    Pretty much, yeah, and how that core personality and morality would be shaped, or reshaped, by his experiences wandering across the United States trying to make some semblance of a life and purpose for himself after realizing he wasn't the "real" Peter Parker.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Pretty much, yeah, and how that core personality and morality would be shaped, or reshaped, by his experiences wandering across the United States trying to make some semblance of a life and purpose for himself after realizing he wasn't the "real" Peter Parker.
    The question is, if we went back over the stories, how much evidence is there for any real change to the core of who Ben is?

    One point the 90s Clone Saga tried to make was that there was nothing lesser about being the clone -- that both of them had what it took to be both Peter Parker and Spider-Man.

    But only one could live the life of Peter Parker, and so Ben did the very Peter Parkery thing -- sacrificed for someone else -- and justified it by saying he had made peace by living as Ben Reilly. But, again, the point was that they were equal in their Peter Parkeriness.

    This particular choice has always been one of the reasons I find Ben so fascinating.

    -Pav, who admits Ben is presented at times as a Peter who has been down on the worst luck one could pretty much ever conceive for a while...

    ...although then there's Kaine to consider...

    ������
    Last edited by Pav; 04-26-2021 at 07:55 PM.
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  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    The question is, if we went back over the stories, how much evidence is there for any real change to the core of who Ben is?

    One point the 90s Clone Saga tried to make was that there was nothing lesser about being the clone -- that both of them had what it took to be both Peter Parker and Spider-Man.

    But only one could live the life of Peter Parker, and so Ben did the very Peter Parkery thing -- sacrificed for someone else -- and justified it by saying he had made peace by living as Ben Reilly. But, again, the point was that they were equal in their Peter Parkeriness.

    This particular choice has always been one of the reasons I find Ben so fascinating.

    -Pav, who admits Ben is presented at times as a Peter who has been down on the worst luck one could pretty much ever conceive for a while...

    ...although then there's Kaine to consider...

    ������
    They were not equal in their Peter Parker-ness. The point was they were equal in their humanity. But five years of divergent experiences had changed Ben, which goes to the heart of the ‘nature vs nurture’ argument. Ben even says at one point (paraphrasing here, since I don’t have the issue handy) “the fact is... you make a pretty good Peter Parker... and I make a pretty good Ben Reilly. And I wouldn’t have it any other way.” I think this is when Peter thought he was the clone and wanted to give Ben back the Peter Parker identity. Well, Ben rejected it, because it wasn’t who he was anymore. Not completely anyway.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    They were not equal in their Peter Parker-ness. The point was they were equal in their humanity. But five years of divergent experiences had changed Ben, which goes to the heart of the ‘nature vs nurture’ argument. Ben even says at one point (paraphrasing here, since I don’t have the issue handy) “the fact is... you make a pretty good Peter Parker... and I make a pretty good Ben Reilly. And I wouldn’t have it any other way.” I think this is when Peter thought he was the clone and wanted to give Ben back the Peter Parker identity. Well, Ben rejected it, because it wasn’t who he was anymore. Not completely anyway.
    I think I just read into that conversation differently than you do. But I agree that your interpretation is just as valid.

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  15. #105
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    Question to Ben's fans:

    In which superteam(s) would you like to see Ben as a member, and why?

    Related question: would you want Kaine on that team as well?

    -Pav, who is curious of others' opinions...
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