Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2021

[Lukmendes]

When people collected stuff to do the Life of Reilly articles, they managed to get a hold of Dan. IIRC Dan wasn't fond of the switcheroo reveal and wanted Peter back ASAP. The issue with that, though, is that Dan wouldn't be happy to write Peter as he were either. He said he couldn't get behind a married Spider-Man, and that him having a supermodel wife basically went against a lot of the character's foundation. But getting Peter back in the webs was priority one.

Man, how many people talk **** about MJ with something as superficial as "Peter's supermodel wife"? Sheesh lol.

Might be analogous to how the Star Wars prequels have been re-evaluated in recent years… I’m still not a fan as I was in my late teens/ early 20s when they came out and had already watched the OT. But those who grew up with them are now boldly proclaiming their love for those films, especially in light of how criticized the new Disney trilogy has become (just wait for the kids who grew up with THAT to in turn lead those films to a re-evaluation or re-embrace in two decades).

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug lol.

While I'm affected by it to a certain extent, it's still funny to re-read or rewatch something I liked as a kid, and then come to the conclusion "Man, this is dogshit".

And I'll laugh if sequel trilogy ever gets nostalgic fans praising it, already funny enough that happens with the prequels, though the memes the prequels have are great, at least.

[boots]

When people collected stuff to do the Life of Reilly articles, they managed to get a hold of Dan. IIRC Dan wasn't fond of the switcheroo reveal and wanted Peter back ASAP. The issue with that, though, is that Dan wouldn't be happy to write Peter as he were either. He said he couldn't get behind a married Spider-Man, and that him having a supermodel wife basically went against a lot of the character's foundation. But getting Peter back in the webs was priority one.

Glenn Greenberg, who was the associate editor who contributed the most info to the articles, mentioned that at least as far as his perception goes the current Spider-Man group editor decided to undo the switch so early in Ben's tenure because he spent a whole lot of time with Jurgens at a convention on a weekend, so there is also that. Greenberg also mentions that it was feasible Jurgens could've stuck around as just writer but not writer/penciller for the book, but Dan ended up passing on it (more than likely due to the absolute editorial chaos the books were at the time).

interesting stuff, sounds like it was just the wrong time in the spider offices for jurgens. no matter what they did, he was done.

i'll have to reread life of reilly sometime.

But Jurgens definitely mellowed out about it - I think it might have been the positive response over the years. I recall when they had launched PAD's Ben book that he said he was pretty surprised with how things (some) people regarded as 'stinkers' at the time like Ben's stuff and Superman's "Electric Superman" were very fondly regarded by people he'd meet at cons.

have you got quotes or links from him?

I think the kids who grew up with Ben and Superman Red/Blue are the reason those stories were (at least partially) redeemed; because eventually they became adults and some got jobs in the industry. When we’re kids, we don’t see the flaws in the pop-culture we consume… only the wonderment. So installments of a franchise that gets a mixed, or even negative, reception at the time is more embraced by those who have it as their first exposure to the property. Might be analogous to how the Star Wars prequels have been re-evaluated in recent years… I’m still not a fan as I was in my late teens/ early 20s when they came out and had already watched the OT. But those who grew up with them are now boldly proclaiming their love for those films, especially in light of how criticized the new Disney trilogy has become (just wait for the kids who grew up with THAT to in turn lead those films to a re-evaluation or re-embrace in two decades).

flaws aside, as a kid or as someone first entering a franchise at that point you would be less attached to a status quo or more open to changes. a big part of the ben hate as i recall, wasn't so much about the character himself, it was more about what he represented.

that being said, there is still a big preference for optimus over rodimus prime even today. so even kids get attached.

and to be fair, the original star wars films are not very good either lol.

[Huntsman Spider]

Peter’s streaming suit was okay. Nothing special and already a bit forgotten. But it was fine.

Miles’ new suit on the other hand is a walking tragedy. Who approved that sloppy mess? How could you replace Miles’ sleek original costume with …. that?

did dan not like ben as such...or did he simply just want to write peter (as in the peter that was peter not the peter that was ben. you know what i mean). it's a small distinction but still somewhat important.

and maybe dan has mellowed due to the fact that his stories featuring ben are still so well regarded now and seen as some of the highlights of a messy time.

dan's design is good. there's nothing wrong with it in terms of composition, but it doesn't feel especially ben or peter.

on another note: i think miles' new costume is sik. it feels like an attempt to shift the accepted aesthetics of superhero design and i think it pulls it off. all the stuff people seem to hate about it is why i think it's so strong. it wouldn't work for peter or steve rogers, but for a different generation of heroes? sure. it's better than random pouches.

I can respect that argument. I might not entirely agree, but the idea of doing something different with superhero aesthetics and innovating more as to the idea of what a superhero ought to look like is compelling. While I'd have preferred going with the under-suit in the concept art by the designer as his new costume going forward, that's just my personal preference, and again, you make a good argument for doing something new and different with the general look and design of a superhero.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

Man, how many people talk **** about MJ with something as superficial as "Peter's supermodel wife"? Sheesh lol.

In all fairness, I haven't read what he said in a very long while and I might be misrepresenting his point - it might be more about Peter being married at all to anyone and not specifically MJ as a model.

Might be analogous to how the Star Wars prequels have been re-evaluated in recent years… I’m still not a fan as I was in my late teens/ early 20s when they came out and had already watched the OT. But those who grew up with them are now boldly proclaiming their love for those films, especially in light of how criticized the new Disney trilogy has become (just wait for the kids who grew up with THAT to in turn lead those films to a re-evaluation or re-embrace in two decades).

Yep... history runs in circles.

have you got quotes or links from him?

The trouble with that is that by the time I read those it was 2016/2017 at the tail end of Clone Conspiracy and I didn't save these anywhere, not even to memory, so I don't recall if it was twitter or a bit of an interview somewhere, sorry.

EDIT: nevermind, with some digging I managed to find the breadcrumbs back where that was. Not much but:

The writer/artist, who has famously said he never goes to a convention where he doesn't get at least a handful of "The Death of Superman" issues to sign, told ComicBook.com, "Over the last few years, I’ve seen revived interest in 'Superman Transformed,' just as I have with the Ben Reilly Spider-Man stuff. I get a lot more questions, comments and issues of both to sign these days."

https://comicbook.com/dc/news/dan-ju...tric-superman/

[boots]

I can respect that argument. I might not entirely agree, but the idea of doing something different with superhero aesthetics and innovating more as to the idea of what a superhero ought to look like is compelling. While I'd have preferred going with the under-suit in the concept art by the designer as his new costume going forward, that's just my personal preference, and again, you make a good argument for doing something new and different with the general look and design of a superhero.

yeah, i appreciate you engaging it even if you don't agree. personal tastes aside there's only so much you can do with skin tight lycra. put the spider symbol here, make it smaller, make it bigger, change the colours, make his eyes bigger etc etc. you can get a little wacky by adding pouches and belts and jackets but essentially, superhero costume design hasn't really moved that far from its inception in action comics #1 (barring some of the more military or cyber punk stages in the 90s). the biggest leap forward to my eyes seems to be unlikely muscle definition.

i love both ben's spider-man costumes, but they're just riffs on the classic.

baggy or oversized clothing is huge in fashion and normal street wear so i don't mind that it's crept into designs after 50 years. even in that regard it's not that much of a leap, it's simply taking the jackets and hoodies that are fairly normalised in superhero costumes now and making it an actual part of the costume rather than an accessory. it's like the next step in the scarlet spider>spider gwen > miles morales costume evolution.

any move out of the norm is gonna cop flack. i can imagine the reaction adults had to superman's original outfit when it debuted; like some sort of weird circus strong man /wrestler throwing cars around.

but i'm super casual fan so i might have missed a few innovations along the way. happy to check out any suggestions you might have.

[Huntsman Spider]

yeah, i appreciate you engaging it even if you don't agree. personal tastes aside there's only so much you can do with skin tight lycra. put the spider symbol here, make it smaller, make it bigger, change the colours, make his eyes bigger etc etc. you can get a little wacky by adding pouches and belts and jackets but essentially, superhero costume design hasn't really moved that far from its inception in action comics #1 (barring some of the more military or cyber punk stages in the 90s). the biggest leap forward to my eyes seems to be unlikely muscle definition.

i love both ben's spider-man costumes, but they're just riffs on the classic.

baggy or oversized clothing is huge in fashion and normal street wear so i don't mind that it's crept into designs after 50 years. even in that regard it's not that much of a leap, it's simply taking the jackets and hoodies that are fairly normalised in superhero costumes now and making it an actual part of the costume rather than an accessory. it's like the next step in the scarlet spider>spider gwen > miles morales costume evolution.

any move out of the norm is gonna cop flack. i can imagine the reaction adults had to superman's original outfit when it debuted; like some sort of weird circus strong man /wrestler throwing cars around.

but i'm super casual fan so i might have missed a few innovations along the way. happy to check out any suggestions you might have.

You're very welcome, and as a fan of cyberpunk and how that seems to have been making a resurgence in the last few years or so . . . could stand to see some more influence there.

[boots]

The trouble with that is that by the time I read those it was 2016/2017 at the tail end of Clone Conspiracy and I didn't save these anywhere, not even to memory, so I don't recall if it was twitter or a bit of an interview somewhere, sorry.

EDIT: nevermind, with some digging I managed to find the breadcrumbs back where that was. Not much but:

https://comicbook.com/dc/news/dan-ju...tric-superman/

ah cheers for that, mate. dan doesn't seem to come down firmly on either side with ben from that but if he has mellowed over time, i can imagine positive interactions with fans who were affected by his work would do it.

this from life of reilly where he is just legit cold on ben. interestingly, note his reaction when asked what he sees as fan's perception of his ben work:

Andrew : What was your take on the Clone Saga from a creator's point of view?

Dan : It reflected Marvel's schizoid take on Spidey. On the one hand, they wanted their characters to age. They wanted to have Mary Jane sitting on a bed, in a teddy, waiting to jump Peter's bones every time he walked in the door.

But that was never the essence of Spider-Man. Peter Parker, as originally conceived, would never have married a supermodel. His life was destined to be one of loss, even as Spider-Man's was one of victory. Once Peter married Mary Jane, the classic essence of Peter was lost.

Andrew : What do you think of Ben Reilly as a character?

Dan : A needless reaction to the stifling situation they'd already put Peter in. If they wanted classic Spider-Man, they should have done it with Peter.

Andrew : Do you think Ben Reilly is a viable character even if he's presented as a clone, in a shared existence in the Spider-Man universe?

Dan : No. Not at all.

Andrew : Do you remember the feedback you got at the time? Was it mainly positive regarding your work and the story direction, or by that time was there an overwhelming resentment of the clone?

Dan : My memory is that most of the fans disliked the Clone Saga and Ben Reilly.

Andrew : Would you ever be interested in working with Spider-Man or revisiting Ben Reilly if the opportunity presented itself?

Dan : I'd love to do some Spidey work one day, but I think it's best to leave Ben Reilly in the past.


from another interview at toddmathy in 2012:


How did you come up with Ben’s supporting cast? What made you have Ben take a job at a coffee shop rather then working at the Daily Bugle?

[Dan J] We wanted to change things up a bit. There had been a history of coffee shops being a part of the Spidey-verse, if you go all the way back to Stan’s issues, so we thought that might be fun. It allowed Ben to come into contact with a lot of different people.

Do you think the jettisoning of the familiar Spider-Man supporting cast hurt Ben Reilly’s chances or did you think the character was doomed from the start?

[Dan J] I don’t know that it was doomed from the start. Marvel wanted a younger, unattached Spider-Man. That was their solution at the time and something they would clearly address a few years later.

When did Marvel realize that Ben Reilly wasn’t working and they needed to get Peter back into the costume?

[Dan J] I don’t know that was quite how the decision was made. It involved more than just Ben and whether or not he was working. When I first started, they said Peter Parker was going to go away not be seen. They were going to commit 100% to Ben. But that never really happened. As long as Peter was going to be on the scene, he had to be Spidey.

the thing that stood out to me there was the stuff on whether or not ben worked as a character.

[Spiderfan001]

In all fairness, I haven't read what he said in a very long while and I might be misrepresenting his point - it might be more about Peter being married at all to anyone and not specifically MJ as a model.

The argument is that Peter scoring someone attractive like MJ who works in Modeling/acting is just self insert fantasy.It's BS IMO, because people don't even consider that Peter himself is handsome canonically and MJ knew he was Spidey so the interest was always there.Ofc this line of thinking is all about looks and only looks which I think both Peter and MJ are beyond in the first place.

Also agreed w/ Miles stuff.The sleek black suit is cool but again just a variation of the classic(like the sensational one as well to a lesser extent), and Miles didn't even make that or have a connection w/ that suit in 1610/616 and was given to him by Fury. Atleast this is one is a gift from someone he saved.

I think they need to make a better design but I wouldn't mind him not going back to the Black suit.

Gwen's suit is cool af and a great variation for one

[HypnoHustler]

Yep... history runs in circles.

Ben Reilly as Spider-Man holding vigil by a comatose Peter Parker in hospital…. It sure does! Now I’m just waiting for the issue where he has a fight in hospital scrubs again.

[Spiderfan001]

DeMatties really did say it best.He's Peter and yet he's not, if you just use him as a younger Peter then he's bound to fail.But I'm glad they figured it out

[boots]

DeMatties really did say it best.He's Peter and yet he's not, if you just use him as a younger Peter then he's bound to fail.But I'm glad they figured it out

he does ponder on it, but what he says has some extra nuance. he specifically states that he doesn't know if ben was doomed from the start (or "bound to fail" as you say) and that the final decision wasn't wholly based on whether or not ben was working. at least, that's his response in 2012.

[Spiderfan001]

he does ponder on it, but what he says has some extra nuance. he specifically states that he doesn't know if ben was doomed from the start (or "bound to fail" as you say) and that the final decision wasn't wholly based on whether or not ben was working. at least, that's his response in 2012.

I was quoting him from his recent interview w/ SYFY.The first part that is, and the second part is just me.I don't think that would work, since his identity crisis is what made him a fan-fan from what I here on these boards

[boots]

I was quoting him from his recent interview w/ SYFY.The first part that is, and the second part is just me.I don't think that would work, since his identity crisis is what made him a fan-fan from what I here on these boards

my bad, i was on a jurgens thing and totally missed where you said dematteis.

i'd have been curious to see how long they could have pulled it off for if they had the guts to stay the course. i don't doubt it would have reversed at some point, but it may have had more steam than we'll ever know.

[Spiderfan001]

my bad, i was on a jurgens thing and totally missed where you said dematteis.

i'd have been curious to see how long they could have pulled it off for if they had the guts to stay the course. i don't doubt it would have reversed at some point, but it may have had more steam than we'll ever know.

No problem, happens to the best of us

Could have been cool to see, but I feel that might have also led to Ben's grave being dug deeper as well.

On another note what direction do people want for Ben after Beyond(hoping he isn't killed in this)?

[boots]

No problem, happens to the best of us

Could have been cool to see, but I feel that might have also led to Ben's grave being dug deeper as well.

yeah, it's a hypothetical with way too many variables.

On another note what direction do people want for Ben after Beyond(hoping he isn't killed in this)?

i really have no idea and don't have any strong hopes other than keeping him away from the clone conspiracy type stuff. i'm just curious to see what they do.