Duke Thomas: We are Robin, The Signal, Final Knight Appreciation 2021

[Lal]

I feel a big problem is that it feels like most of the development of his relationships with the other Batfamily members happened of panel.
I mean there was for example that issue in Tom Kings Batman run were Bruce was telling him, Dick, Jason and Damian that he would marry Selina, where was directly treated by other 3 like one of them, even if they had basically next to no on panel interaction with him since the met him the first time in Robin War.
.

Yes, and that's why it doesn't feel believable.
It seems like DC is going back and forth with whether Duke is part of the inner circle of batfamily or not, and it's not very consistent.
From what it looks like recently, I'd say that the immediate circle of the batfmily is the Robins and Barbra, and Duke isn't really there anymore.
Cass and steph now seem to be included more, but Duke actually feels less included in the family than them.

I'm not sure how it could be solved. Maybe letting him interact more with the batfamily in Urban legends?
Or maybe DC just want him as part of the outsiders rather than a regular batfamily character, that's also an option.

[Rac7d*]

I agree.

He needs to interact more, not be isolated.
The daylight niche is cool, but it seems bizarre that he does it alone, as he is right now the least experienced of the batfamily.

Fans asked Taylor for Tim and Jason in Nightwing's run and received both. Nightwing now sells more than the Justice League, so that's great exposure. But no one asks for Duke because of all the "better than Robin" nonsense that just isolated him and antagonize fans.
Same with the Robins reunion in Robin's book this week and with the Robins' series.

Tim and Babs appear every where becuase they are apart of that inner circle,
How does Duke get their?

[Lal]

Again, I think that DC did a lot of damage to Duke with the entire "better than Robin" angle. They could just have made him Signal and said he's different because of his powers without angering established fanbases.

Also, as long as he's pushed as part of the outsiders, it seems more like they are his main team over the batfamily (like in the upcoming story in Urban legend).
But at least he'll be interacting with Tim there, that's already a nice start.

[Restingvoice]

Tim and Babs appear every where becuase they are apart of that inner circle,
How does Duke get their?

Duke was trained by Jason and Dick. Duke and Damian reached an understanding and hung out after their first meetings. Duke is closest to Cass since they're on the same team, but Cass also fighting for page time right now.

That said, the set up of those members of the Bat family after Fear State would be Dick returning to Bludhaven, Jason traveling with his zombie crew, and Damian traveling with Bruce most likely reconciling and having personal bonding time. So those last two scenarios are not really open for additional supporting cast.

Dick having his own city and a whole apartment block is the most likely to take in guest stars like he already has with Babs and Tim, but Taylor in Nightwing is more about paying homage to the Dixon era Bat family, so I'm not seeing signs that he's interested. Duke is not in the Bat fam group chat, for example, just the Dixon era Bat fam members.

Like he has the relation, but I don't know if the writers have the interest to develop that relation.

Edit: I forgot that Taylor features Duke in that medieval Dark Knight thing, so he's probably open for suggestion

[Korath]

Again, I think that DC did a lot of damage to Duke with the entire "better than Robin" angle. They could just have made him Signal and said he's different because of his powers without angering established fanbases.

Also, as long as he's pushed as part of the outsiders, it seems more like they are his main team over the batfamily (like in the upcoming story in Urban legend).
But at least he'll be interacting with Tim there, that's already a nice start.

If established fanbase can't accept that Signal is better than Robin (a sidekick character whom you're supposed to outgrow at some point) the problem is on them, not Duke.

[Aahz]

Duke was trained by Jason and Dick. Duke and Damian reached an understanding and hung out after their first meetings.

But those were all used things that happened just once on panel, not like with other Batfamily members where you saw relationsships develop over several stories.

[Lal]

If established fanbase can't accept that Signal is better than Robin (a sidekick character whom you're supposed to outgrow at some point) the problem is on them, not Duke.

Again, that's the attitude that gets Signal to be sidelined because the stronger fanbases don't like him.

The Robin book sells almost 50k copies a month, Nightwing sells even more. The Robins book won the round robin fan choice tournament. The Robins are popular.
The signal isn't well-received even after a crazy push, and his creator just left DC, so there's no one to really push him anymore. If he won't interact with the batfamily, things don't look too promising for him.
He also has less experience than basically any of the other Robins/ ex-Robins, maybe with the exception of Damian.

[Restingvoice]

But those were all used things that happened just once on panel, not like with other Batfamily members where you saw relationsships develop over several stories.

So develop them.

[Korath]

Again, that's the attitude that gets Signal to be sidelined because the stronger fanbases don't like him.

The Robin book sells almost 50k copies a month, Nightwing sells even more. The Robins book won the round robin fan choice tournament. The Robins are popular.
The signal isn't well-received even after a crazy push, and his creator just left DC, so there's no one to really push him anymore. If he won't interact with the batfamily, things don't look too promising for him.
He also has less experience than basically any of the other Robins/ ex-Robins, maybe with the exception of Damian.

What crazy push ? Duke has never been pushed correctly by DC. His mini was shortened, he wasn't used enough in Batman and in Outsiders his portrayal was abysmal. And yet he's gotten far more stuff to work on in three issues of his mini than Tim Drake had since Rebirth, basically.

And, again, Signal is meant to be better than a sidekick character. He's supposed to be a Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, semi-independant hero.

[Aahz]

And, again, Signal is meant to be better than a sidekick character. He's supposed to be a Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, semi-independant hero.

Since the late 60s Robin has basically been semi independent with exceptions of Jason's (reactively short) time as Robin, and short periods at the beginning of Tim's and Damian's time as Robin.

And Duke was in Rebirth also initially filling the sidekick role for Bruce (while Damian had adventures somewhere else).

There is really not much of difference between how Bruce treated Duke and how he treated Tim pre flashpoint.

[Restingvoice]

What crazy push ? Duke has never been pushed correctly by DC. His mini was shortened, he wasn't used enough in Batman and in Outsiders his portrayal was abysmal. And yet he's gotten far more stuff to work on in three issues of his mini than Tim Drake had since Rebirth, basically.

And, again, Signal is meant to be better than a sidekick character. He's supposed to be a Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, semi-independant hero.

If established fanbase can't accept that Signal is better than Robin (a sidekick character whom you're supposed to outgrow at some point) the problem is on them, not Duke.

The problem here is that quote happened while he's still an apprentice. I myself has no problem with that since I take it as Bruce training him to be better than Robins, he should do that, it's progress, but Snyder has a history of doing this with his original characters that leads to people taking it that way.

Harper was assigned to be Nightwing when Dick became a secret agent. It was protested because Nightwing is Dick's chosen identity and not something Bruce has a right to hand over to a rookie.
Harper then was build up in a story of Robins anniversary, viewed by Mother and Bruce to be the image of perfect Robin during the time Dick is still Robin, and on top of that, the other Robins don't get to be main characters in that story. Even though it's their anniversary.
Duke was made to be the one who return Bruce's memory, during the time Alfred was made to keep the rest of the Robins away from recovering Bruce's memory. During the time Damian was just resurrected and missing his dad but not allowed to go near him.

So by the time we hit All-Star, with Duke being Batman's main apprentice and Damian's just going in and out the Bat fam book while staying mainly in Titans with Bruce forgetting his birthday, it's just another moment on top of everything else created by Snyder/Tynion that festers a resentful feeling.

No, this is not Duke's fault. It's not even all Snyder/Tynion's fault, it's the whole creative direction the last 5-10 years. But the experience is tainted, so when they look at the characters involved, people are just "I don't give a **** about you" and people are made of emotion, not just logic, and we're talking about fandom, who's all about emotion.

It's basically like when Damian came when Tim was Robin. It's a combination of everything that separates fans of before to fans of now.

[Wingin' It]

If established fanbase can't accept that Signal is better than Robin (a sidekick character whom you're supposed to outgrow at some point) the problem is on them, not Duke.

Duke was no more or less a sidekick than any of the Robins were; sometimes they work with Bruce, sometimes they have solo stories. The problem isn't the fan base, who are responding accordingly defensive, the problem is DC is setting Duke up for failure putting him against far more popular characters.

[Lal]

Duke indeed seems no more or less sidekick than the others. I think he mostly differs from them in that he didn't have as much time as they had - either in world or in the stories.

He's also amongst the least experienced members of the batfamily. Yes, even if he trained with the Outsiders and Cass. He's still had only about 3 years of experience, didn't he? At best, it puts him on par with Tim.

Since Snyder is gone, and it seems like Jace is receiving the next big push, I wonder if Duke has a chance of becoming again a prominent member of the batfamily (like it was implied he was at the beginning or Rebirth). Right now he's more or less like Batwoman - appearing in splash pages and in Urban legends.

Maybe if Jace would join the outsiders he could also be a part of his team.

[Lal]

What crazy push ? Duke has never been pushed correctly by DC. His mini was shortened, he wasn't used enough in Batman and in Outsiders his portrayal was abysmal. And yet he's gotten far more stuff to work on in three issues of his mini than Tim Drake had since Rebirth, basically.

And, again, Signal is meant to be better than a sidekick character. He's supposed to be a Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, semi-independant hero.

Seriously? Duke was pushed really hard. It was confirmed that he was pushed really hard.
He was a major character at the end of Snyder's run. Then he was Batman's partner in the all-star Batman series that was supposed to introduce Batman to a new audience, but it didn't take. Then he got a mini (with the name "Batman" to guarantee sales), that by issue 3 sold only ok-ish, but nothing more. Then he got to be a part of a team, and the sales were low, but the team still appears in Urban legends. He also received backups in future state event in "The Next Batman" title.

Even this year, after years of most fans showing no real interest in him, Snyder confirmed that he'll try to push Duke again, and Duke indeed had 3-4 stories in the Metal / Death metal events this year, including a story in tales from the Dark multiverse, in which he was the main hero and Dick Grayson, the Flash, Hawkgirl and the rest of the JL were nothing but depressed incompetent heroes without his help.

So even if after all that, Duke still can't sell, there is a bigger problem with the direction he's heading, and he needs a change.

[Askia]

I agree, Duke hasn't gotten a big push. He needs an actual solo with a writer that cares about his character and will actually make him cool. He already has a dope theme with being Gotham's daytime protector, but they need to go all in.

Give him some badass moments where he has some dope fight scenes that will get people interested in his character. Duke using his powers in a cool way that really sets him apart from the bat family.

Like no more training and him getting his ass beat with someones foot on his head while he's unconscious. From detective comics, to outsiders, to his mini, Duke takes too many L's and really needs a chance to shine.