Duke Thomas: We are Robin, The Signal, Final Knight Appreciation 2021

[Aahz]

In the story with Duke and Tim and Luke, we learned about Tim and his quirks/traits were showed off and he is the one that stood out (as usual it is always the other person) but nothing about Duke or his own unique approach to the issue. Luke's advice was bland and generic and again contrasted with Tim to show him off. We only barely learned the slightest thing about Luke.

The thing is, in Tim's case the writers used something Tim actually did in the comics, with Duke and Luke simply don't have that much history the writers can pull from.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

The thing is, in Tim's case the writers used something Tim actually did in the comics, with Duke and Luke simply don't have that much history the writers can pull from.

The crew were able to be innovative with Tim's barely-existant relationship with Bernard in a two parter. They could absolutely be innovative with Duke and Luke. The thing is they don't care.

[skyvolt2000]

The thing is, in Tim's case the writers used something Tim actually did in the comics, with Duke and Luke simply don't have that much history the writers can pull from.

Okay

Bernard Dowd's appearances
Before New 52 6 (I own 3 of them)
After New 52 5

That is 11 issues.

Duke Thomas

141 with a lead role in his own mini, We Are Robin, Outsiders (sort of), his one shot & Death Metal one shot.
He's going to be a lead in a Batman cartoon show for kids.
At least 3 action figures (2 for kids)

Luke Fox

110 appearances
18 were his solo run
He was on a tv show
At least 3 figures

So the writers had over 251 books and even a TV SHOW to get material for these two.


What material did they have for Bernard??

This is the SAME mess with Cyborg and you can toss in Bumblebee, Vixen & John Stewart as well.

Something OUTSIDE of mainstream comics can find usage for this guys and yet the mainstream can't.

Then we see cries of John or Cyborg or Duke are boring and tokens. Yeah if you look at the mainstream comics.

[Darkspellmaster]

Okay

Bernard Dowd's appearances
Before New 52 6 (I own 3 of them)
After New 52 5

That is 11 issues.

Duke Thomas

141 with a lead role in his own mini, We Are Robin, Outsiders (sort of), his one shot & Death Metal one shot.
He's going to be a lead in a Batman cartoon show for kids.
At least 3 action figures (2 for kids)

Luke Fox

110 appearances
18 were his solo run
He was on a tv show
At least 3 figures

So the writers had over 251 books and even a TV SHOW to get material for these two.


What material did they have for Bernard??

This is the SAME mess with Cyborg and you can toss in Bumblebee, Vixen & John Stewart as well.

Something OUTSIDE of mainstream comics can find usage for this guys and yet the mainstream can't.

Then we see cries of John or Cyborg or Duke are boring and tokens. Yeah if you look at the mainstream comics.

Agreed, WFA needs to push him more.

[Aahz]

What material did they have for Bernard??

Yeah they also didn't really do anything super innovative with him with him, or gave him a lot of character, he was Tim's generic boyfriend.

And if we compare on the other side Tim with Duke and Luke, he has 1.655 appearances in the main continuities, and about 200 solo issues (any likely a similar number in team books).

And number of appearances is any way not saying much, since a lot of them will be very minor and is some cases just the character standing somehwere in the back ground.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Yeah they also didn't really do anything super innovative with him with him, or gave him a lot of character, he was Tim's generic boyfriend.

And if we compare on the other side Tim with Duke and Luke, he has 1.655 appearances in the main continuities, and about 200 solo issues (any likely a similar number in team books).

And number of appearances is any way not saying much, since a lot of them will be very minor and is some cases just the character standing somehwere in the back ground.

It wasn't him per se but the relationship they were innovative with even though it is barely there. They even went on social media to talk about it yet strangely they never have for Duke the supposed main character when they have for other characters. Again they released concept art of Kate but not Duke.

I'm sure they could find or think of something to do with Duke or Luke but like I said they just don't care.

[lemonpeace]

Duke Thomas (Earth 11) by Otto Schmidt

[J. D. Guy]

Duke Thomas (Earth 11) by Otto Schmidt

Is this official or fanart?

[Frontier]

Duke Thomas (Earth 11) by Otto Schmidt

I...I think something just awakened in me.

Is this official or fanart?

Fanart. Schmidt does a lot of fanart.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Is there a reason why Duke and Luke haven't caught on with fans?

[J. D. Guy]

Is there a reason why Duke and Luke haven't caught on with fans?

Depends on where you look and how you quantify "caught on".

If you're only really looking here and places that tend to congregate old-timey comic book fans, then you might find it harder to notice a character having "caught on", as such fandomspaces tend to be resistant-to-outright hostile towards new characters and new stories, with many being more than willing to downplay and stamp out anything veering towards positivity and fan-love. Still, Luke and especially Duke do have their fanbases, who are quite loyal at that. (The amount of Duke's fans who stayed onto Hill's Outsiders run for Duke's sake to the very end, willing to believe that all the mess Hill was dragging The Signal through was gonna be worth some awesome pay-off and that Hill's lies about "Duke'll get focus later" would come to pass as true is a testament to the loyalty and eagerness and expansiveness of Duke's fanbase.)

And that's another thing; when haters and racists talk louder and longer and/or get platformed higher, fans get drowned out or become exhausted expending energy to combat it all. The end result is that there's not much time or energy left to spend on positive fandom activities and the like. This also acts as a discouraging element that can lead many to keep their fan-love to themselves.

[Aahz]

Is there a reason why Duke and Luke haven't caught on with fans?

I mean with Luke it isn't really a surprise.

- He was a replacement for a new character that had been barely arround for 2 years at this point, and just took over the (already poorly selling) Batwing series from one issue to the next with out any build up.
- His series was overall pretty mediocre, also only ran for less than two years, and he has not really gotten much focus since.
- He doesn't even have a real origin story.
- He had barely any interactions with the rest of the Batfamily on panel, I mean he was even Barbaras Boyfriend for a time and that got next to no focus in the Batgirl series (i think even the Jason/Barbara romance in Batman Eternals that nobody wanted got more development)
- There is also not really much unique or interesting about him, maybe apart from being the son of Lucius Fox

So I'm not really sure how he should have build up a big fan base.

I also don't remember really any racist backlash against him, some people were iirc pissed about him replacing David Zavimbi, and most other didn't really care.

And btw. around the time Luke was introduced they also added with Talon/Calivin Rose a new "straight white male" character to the Batfranchise, and black female one with Strix/Mary Turner, who seem to have been like David Zavimbi been completely forgotten by most fans and DCs at this point. So in comparison to those Duke and Luke seem to have done quite well ...

[ZuLuLu]

Duke Thomas (Earth 11) by Otto Schmidt

She's cute.

[skyvolt2000]

Is there a reason why Duke and Luke haven't caught on with fans?

Someone has to get off their AZZ and be committed to WORK and DEVELOP characters. Doing just enough to get by is not acceptable.

Here is Luke-what have the COMIC BOOK SIDE DONE? Yes he took over for David to no backlash and that book lasted way longer than it should have.

Luke in Batgirl was forced by editors and one of the reasons that creative team left. That is why it wasn't fleshed out because they were fighting with editors-a common trend we have seen way too many times with characters especially black ones.

Outside of comics-he has at least 4 action figures (2 are for kids under the age of 10), was on a tv show, in the webtoon and was in Catwoman's OGN. His trades were released this year.

Duke-rinse and repeat. One comment about being better than Robin-made him an enemy to some. When you are willing to deface a $5 book if he is in it-that is hate. I don't think he was suppose to be in King's Batman run. He was an add on that got cameos until 2018. Had a well received mini and the trade did fine. Then he got TRASHED in Detective Comics leading to Outsiders. After that he was an after thought for background. While others like Punchline, Ghostmaker and others made themselves at home.

It is July 2022. What has he done beyond a CAMEO in Batman #117 in the main book. Batman Urban Legends Jan 2022 the Outside finale is the most he has done so far in 2022.
September 2021 in Batman Secret Files is the last time he did more than for all of 2021 in the main books.
Under Tom King it was cameos after the first 2 arcs. So one Dc's highest seller-Duke Thomas who was being seen by TONS of folks is only good for cameos.

Outside of comics-4 action figures, cameo in Titans on HBO, a role in a new cartoon show.

Notice the TREND? Don't? Let me add in this is the SAME trend we saw with Cyborg (New 52), Steel, John Stewart, Bumblebee, Jason Rusch, Ms Martian, Beast Boy (as of late), Raven, Aqualad, Jessica Cruz, Vixen. Herald and pretty much Star Girl and JSA.

Outside of comics are selling these guys to the public.

SO while the comic side is screaming no one cares about these two. Outside of comics are being fed these guys.

Comic book side got to put in the WORK. Not to the level of Carol Danvers. I would do to them what Marvel does with Shuri.

Shuri is the only character at both companies who will have NEVER material and not just trades. She got 3 well received and school endorsed novels.

I would do OGNs with Duke. Books like Beast Boy Loves Raven. Because folks are going to buy them as long as they are NOT the level of I am NOt Starfire (sorry).

If Batman Urban Legends is staying-he should have a story in there 6 times a year. That should get collected.

[Aahz]

Outside of comics-4 action figures, cameo in Titans on HBO, a role in a new cartoon show.

The thing in Tiatsn was more an easter egg than a cameo, and with how young the target audience for that cartoon seems to be, that will also not really have an effect on comic sales for the next couple of years. And at this point we don't even know how big his role will be on the show, since it looks to me as if the vehicles would be the main characters and not the humans.

When it comes to Luke, I'm not even sure if it really would make any sense for DC to do much with him now that Jace became Batman and "stole" most of what had been build up during Lukes Batwing series in terms of the Fox family dynamic.

The the OGNs is the that Beast Boy and Raven are do to the Titans cartoons pretty popular characters to the general audience, I'm not sure if the novels alone can really do much for an mostly unknown character. And doing OGNs with Batgirl, Robin or Nightwing, would be likely way more profitable for DC than doing Signal or Batwing.