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  1. #2491
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    And Geoff Johns written Cyborg no different than how he written John Stewart. Stoic, lonely, and a character who can't live past tragedies. It was only until David Walker, who brought Cyborg away from that nonsense to where Geoff Johns adapted it from that run. Though, I would give Johns credit for continuous development from what previous writers did to the character in that regard.

  2. #2492
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    Francis Manapul and Brian Buccellato's run on New 52 Flash was more consistent on how Geoff Johns written the character pre-52. Geoff Johns in some ways altered Barry's personality in JL so he can build a dynamic with Hal.
    New 52 Flash felt pretty consistent between his solo and JL. Johns wrote Barry and Hal the same as he wrote them pre-Flashpoint in my opinion, they just came off younger and with less history together like a lot of characters in the New 52, and I don't think it had anything to do with making a dynamic with Hal because Hal was barely in the New 52 JL overall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    And Geoff Johns written Cyborg no different than how he written John Stewart. Stoic, lonely, and a character who can't live past tragedies. It was only until David Walker, who brought Cyborg away from that nonsense to where Geoff Johns adapted it from that run. Though, I would give Johns credit for continuous development from what previous writers did to the character in that regard.
    I'm not sure I'd say Johns wrote John reflecting on Xanshi the same way he wrote Cyborg's issues with his humanity (and with Cyborg you've got Flash-Cyborg, Titans-Cyborg, and JL-Cyborg as far all the times Johns wrote him) but Johns wrote Cyborg more than he wrote John later into his GL run so Vic got a bit more character development (especially in Forever Evil).

  3. #2493
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    New 52 Flash felt pretty consistent between his solo and JL. Johns wrote Barry and Hal the same as he wrote them pre-Flashpoint in my opinion, they just came off younger and with less history together like a lot of characters in the New 52, and I don't think it had anything to do with making a dynamic with Hal because Hal was barely in the New 52 JL overall.
    We both agree that both Green Lantern and Flash having a dynamic always has been tradition. So of course Johns is going to try to build up a dynamic between the two, even if takes altering a character. Why wouldn't he? And I'm not sure whether Johns' plans on Hal being on the JL was long-term or temporary before the New 52 launch. So I'm curious whether those ideas were changed after launch or it was already set for him to leave.

    I'm not sure I'd say Johns wrote John reflecting on Xanshi the same way he wrote Cyborg's issues with his humanity (and with Cyborg you've got Flash-Cyborg, Titans-Cyborg, and JL-Cyborg as far all the times Johns wrote him) but Johns wrote Cyborg more than he wrote John later into his GL run so Vic got a bit more character development (especially in Forever Evil).
    Right, he wrote Cyborg more and done more with him, no disagreements there. But you got to take into consideration that readers and fans were already critical on how he handled Cyborg in his early JL run, before he done more with him. And then other writers got a chance to build up his character. So what was the main moral to Cyborg's story in Forever Evil? To accept it and move on. What was the main moral to John's story in Blackest Night? To accept it and move on. He written John no different than how he written Cyborg in those areas. Both characters couldn't move on from the past.

  4. #2494
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    We both agree that both Green Lantern and Flash having a dynamic always has been tradition. So of course Johns is going to try to build up a dynamic between the two, even if takes altering a character. Why wouldn't he? And I'm not sure whether Johns' plans on Hal being on the JL was long-term or temporary before the New 52 launch. So I'm curious whether those ideas were changed after launch or it was already set for him to leave.
    I agree that, yes, GL and Flash are an established pair on the JL. I don't think Johns really had to alter the characters he was writing to make the dynamic work, because Barry and Hal is different from John and Wally because they're different characters. He definitely wasn't emulating the DCAU.
    Right, he wrote Cyborg more and done more with him, no disagreements there. But you got to take into consideration that readers and fans were already critical on how he handled Cyborg in his early JL run, before he done more with him. And then other writers got a chance to build up his character. So what was the main moral to Cyborg's story in Forever Evil? To accept it and move on. What was the main moral to John's story in Blackest Night? To accept it and move on. He written John no different than how he written Cyborg in those areas. Both characters couldn't move on from the past.
    I think that's more a coincidence based on two characters having a pivotal tragic moment and not because they were strictly black characters. Of course Cyborg having to accept himself and build himself up again as a new kind of man has always been his main character direction, it just kind of got redone again in the New 52.

  5. #2495
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I agree that, yes, GL and Flash are an established pair on the JL. I don't think Johns really had to alter the characters he was writing to make the dynamic work, because Barry and Hal is different from John and Wally because they're different characters. He definitely wasn't emulating the DCAU.
    I don't believe he was trying to emulate the personalities from the DCAU, but that doesn't mean that Barry's personality has been consistent since the New 52. I would agree with your point if it was already planned for Hal leaving the team before the relaunch.

    I think that's more a coincidence based on two characters having a pivotal tragic moment and not because they were strictly black characters. Of course Cyborg having to accept himself and build himself up again as a new kind of man has always been his main character direction, it just kind of got redone again in the New 52.
    Batman would say I don't believe in coincidences lol. I wasn't insinuating that this had to do with Johns writing black characters. I think in some cases Johns didn't know what to do in writing these characters, who just happens to be black. Both characters had similar traits and plots. But Johns usually would give some bigger roles for Cyborg whenever the League isn't around (like in Forever Evil and Throne of Atlantis).

  6. #2496
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    I don't believe he was trying to emulate the personalities from the DCAU, but that doesn't mean that Barry's personality has been consistent since the New 52. I would agree with your point if it was already planned for Hal leaving the team before the relaunch.
    Was there any scene in particular that stood out to you?
    Batman would say I don't believe in coincidences lol. I wasn't insinuating that this had to do with Johns writing black characters. I think in some cases Johns didn't know what to do in writing these characters, who just happens to be black. Both characters had similar traits and plots. But Johns usually would give some bigger roles for Cyborg whenever the League isn't around (like in Forever Evil and Throne of Atlantis).
    I think with Cyborg it's just a case of a rebooted continuity and retelling his story from the ground up from how Wolfman/Perez wrote him.

  7. #2497
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Heavy is the hand that wears the ring


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  9. #2499
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    And Geoff Johns written Cyborg no different than how he written John Stewart. Stoic, lonely, and a character who can't live past tragedies. It was only until David Walker, who brought Cyborg away from that nonsense to where Geoff Johns adapted it from that run. Though, I would give Johns credit for continuous development from what previous writers did to the character in that regard.
    Yeah man, in the final analysis I would agree with the similarities with their characterization to a large degree. I might remember a slight nuance in John Stewart.

  10. #2500
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  11. #2501
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Love the use of color here .

  12. #2502
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Was there any scene in particular that stood out to you?
    There's no particular part that stood out, but I think it was in his earlier runs from what I remember. It's been a cool minute since I read that run. You could be right on this. I didn't bring this up as a critique towards Johns, just to you let you know

    I think with Cyborg it's just a case of a rebooted continuity and retelling his story from the ground up from how Wolfman/Perez wrote him.
    I understand your point, but the am I a man or machine angle has been told multiple times in the rebooted continuity, hasn't it?

    Cyborg also been having those anti-social traits (like John Stewart under Johns) when he has been on the league for over 5 years (in DCU timeframe). It's more of a writing style on how Geoff Johns writes on some characters.

  13. #2503
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Yeah man, in the final analysis I would agree with the similarities with their characterization to a large degree. I might remember a slight nuance in John Stewart.
    Exactly!! The only difference is that Cyborg was a part of bigger roles, which SHOULD be expected at the very least, given that he was a part of the big 7 and the only black character in the league at the time.

  14. #2504
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    There's no particular part that stood out, but I think it was in his earlier runs from what I remember. It's been a cool minute since I read that run. You could be right on this. I didn't bring this up as a critique towards Johns, just to you let you know
    Fair enough .
    I understand your point, but the am I a man or machine angle has been told multiple times in the rebooted continuity, hasn't it?

    Cyborg also been having those anti-social traits (like John Stewart under Johns) when he has been on the league for over 5 years (in DCU timeframe). It's more of a writing style on how Geoff Johns writes on some characters.
    Well, Cyborg's had two solo's and his JL tenure, so I guess?

    Did John come off as anti-social in the Johns run? Are we just talking about the Xanshi scene during Blackest Night? I think it's a genuine criticism that none of the League really acted any differently in the New 52 5 year time-skip but that time-skip was always really faulty.

  15. #2505
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Fair enough .

    Well, Cyborg's had two solo's and his JL tenure, so I guess?

    Did John come off as anti-social in the Johns run? Are we just talking about the Xanshi scene during Blackest Night? I think it's a genuine criticism that none of the League really acted any differently in the New 52 5 year time-skip but that time-skip was always really faulty.
    Not to derail, but what was the quality and level of dedication to any depiction of Cyborg in his narrative around this time. Just wasn't cutting it. John barely was a half a step better.

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