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  1. #4141
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    1) We're not talking about her everyday looks here. We're talking about a costume that she's fighting on missions with. It'd be one thing if it was only on her scenes at the Summers house and stuff, but it's not.

    2) I say proper in regards to being a proper SUPERHERO UNIFORM. If it wasn't for the mask and gloves, the dress/belt/boots would be casual civilian clothes.

    3) What are you even saying... You're trying to say that I'M the sexist one because I don't like that male writers are, according to your own words, behaving like stupid horny teenagers? LOL. I just said that I don't have a problem with female heroes wearing dresses. I have a problem with the design, how dated it is, and how the writers are acting about it.

    Jean is a fictional character. What she wears is something decided by writers/artists/editors. Any reasons as to why she's wearing them are made-up by said people. I'm not talking about women's rights to wear whatever they want. Of course women wearing skirts isn't regressive. A fictional character wearing a costume from the 60's that looks dated and she obviously grew out of these days is regressive. In my opinion, at least.
    1) What's the difference? Really. I'm not trying to be annoying. I don't see it. How is a mini dress any less practical than high heels or a leotard?
    2) Why can't casual civilian clothes work as a superhero uniform? It's just preference, right? Does anyone have a problem when Luke Cake wear his civilian clothes while super-heroing?
    3) No. I apologise if it sounded like I was calling you sexist. I was just saying that silly behaviour of stupid writers shouldn't lead to restrictions to female character's clothes.

    Well... when people bring the ideas of "regressive" into the discussion simply because it has to do with a female character - again, I don't see people having such reaction if it was about a male character - it does become an issue that affects females in general, fictional or real.

  2. #4142
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Sure. But I still canít hazard a guess.
    Me neither I will wait to see INFERNO for more clues.

    Yep. Itís part of one of my theories too. I just wrote about it in the other thread.
    Thank you, I answered back there and I agree itīs a possibility

    Madelyne is certainly a different case. Sheís not a clone like Strife is.
    Yes sheīs Strife had more limits than Nathan

    Not really. Jean was part of the X-Force, but when Logan killed her in Wolverine, a new body of hers was created to bring her back. Thereís even a scene when he takes flowers to her egg and Scott is standing there, looking rightfully upset and walking away as Logan apologises for having killed her.
    Yes I remember that scene and thatīs my point, they have the eggs with the body ready for them, just like Jean just had to find Xavierīs egg and give him his mind back to bring him back to life.

    Yeah. Those reference/cameos have been appearing consistently in most X-books.
    Yes I would like to keep seeing them on the new X-men title but I understand if Duggan just wants to focus on the team.


    Yeah, considering those portals, there is no reason for them not to do it.
    Agreed

    I remember the art was by Noto, so it either happens in Cable or the issue he drew for X-Men, during the X of Swords event. I have some stuff to do now, but look for it later.

    EDIT: Found it: Cable #5.
    Thank you

    Hey, Mags: youíre an old man!

    Can I have that tea now, please?
    Scott took all the tea before leving for NY but if you ask him he will give you some Krakoan wisky




    ]Thatís what I expect tooÖ Itís the whole point of the book, right?
    Yes that and looking deeply into the ressurrection process and of course deal with Onslaught.

    He has a sweet, loving soul. He likes most people.
    Yes he does and right now they aren not close but both are roma, were adopted and had difficulties with their birth parents so I can see them having much to talk at the very least.

  3. #4143
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Yes I remember that scene and thatīs my point, they have the eggs with the body ready for them, just like Jean just had to find Xavierīs egg and give him his mind back to bring him back to life.
    That’s how you read it? I guess it’s possible. But I thought the Five would just start the process when there’s proof of death. I don’t think anyone has a back-up body in an egg, ready to be matured. Not even Xavier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Yes I would like to keep seeing them on the new X-men title but I understand if Duggan just wants to focus on the team.
    Seven characters is quite a big team already. If he focuses one issue per character, that's more than half an year of comic books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Scott took all the tea before leving for NY but if you ask him he will give you some Krakoan wisky ;)
    Oh, well… I guess it will have to do, then. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Yes he does and right now they aren not close but both are roma, were adopted and had difficulties with their birth parents so I can see them having much to talk at the very least.
    Yes. And I know I’ll love Kurt a little more because of this interaction. :)

  4. #4144
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    That’s how you read it? I guess it’s possible. But I thought the Five would just start the process when there’s proof of death. I don’t think anyone has a back-up body in an egg, ready to be matured. Not even Xavier.
    Apocalypse and Charles got back to life quikly because they already had their bodys ready and are part of the Quiet Council so at least them have their body ready in case of an emergency. If itīs someone else then yes the five have to start the process from the beggining.

    Seven characters is quite a big team already. If he focuses one issue per character, that's more than half an year of comic books.
    If he tells the story from the perspective of a different character with each issue that would be a good way to explore them,especially since JDW said they will be changing the team members each year.

    Oh, well… I guess it will have to do, then.
    You can also ask Scott

    Yes. And I know I’ll love Kurt a little more because of this interaction.
    Me too.

  5. #4145
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    1) What's the difference? Really. I'm not trying to be annoying. I don't see it. How is a mini dress any less practical than high heels or a leotard?
    2) Why can't casual civilian clothes work as a superhero uniform? It's just preference, right? Does anyone have a problem when Luke Cake wear his civilian clothes while super-heroing?
    3) No. I apologise if it sounded like I was calling you sexist. I was just saying that silly behaviour of stupid writers shouldn't lead to restrictions to female character's clothes.

    Well... when people bring the ideas of "regressive" into the discussion simply because it has to do with a female character - again, I don't see people having such reaction if it was about a male character - it does become an issue that affects females in general, fictional or real.
    1. none of them are practical.
    2 yes it can work, but it has to be pratical. For exemple superboy t-shirt and jeans, Luke pants and yellow hoodie

    The thing is that male hracters aren't sexualized so often

  6. #4146
    Astonishing Member Celestialbodies's Avatar
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    Was Jason Aaron planning to use Jean in his Avengers run, I'm thinking back to the start of his current run and Jean was name dropped quite a few times. Could have been nothing but I wonder if he was planning to turn Jean into the Phoenix I feel like she was one of the only Ancient Avengers who did not actually appear during the run.


    I'm not for a second suggesting I wanted her there but it randomly occurred to me Jean was mentioned at least twice in the beginning stages of that run then never again....

  7. #4147
    MAKE JEAN X-FORCE AGAIN Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    Was Jason Aaron planning to use Jean in his Avengers run, I'm thinking back to the start of his current run and Jean was name dropped quite a few times. Could have been nothing but I wonder if he was planning to turn Jean into the Phoenix I feel like she was one of the only Ancient Avengers who did not actually appear during the run.


    I'm not for a second suggesting I wanted her there but it randomly occurred to me Jean was mentioned at least twice in the beginning stages of that run then never again....
    I doubt it. It went to some random nobody character so that he can keep it in the Aaronverse. And good riddance. Current X-team would just give it to Cyclops or something stupid like that because it interferes with Jean being a wife and they expressly do not want her to be a powerful TK user. lol
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  8. #4148
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    Was Jason Aaron planning to use Jean in his Avengers run, I'm thinking back to the start of his current run and Jean was name dropped quite a few times. Could have been nothing but I wonder if he was planning to turn Jean into the Phoenix I feel like she was one of the only Ancient Avengers who did not actually appear during the run.


    I'm not for a second suggesting I wanted her there but it randomly occurred to me Jean was mentioned at least twice in the beginning stages of that run then never again....
    Never heard anything about it. I remember Stark suggesting they contact Jean because she fought a celestial on the first issues and then nothing, she only did a came on the end of the enter the phoenix arc.

    I think that separating Jean from Phoenix was because of his run. Unless he wanted to unite Phoenix and Jean again.

    Pre-historic Phoenix is a mirror of Jean Grey Story. So I'm scratching my head WTH was Aaron plan

  9. #4149
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Apocalypse and Charles got back to life quikly because they already had their bodys ready and are part of the Quiet Council so at least them have their body ready in case of an emergency. If itīs someone else then yes the five have to start the process from the beggining.
    I think the only one who gets a body ready on regular basis is Proteus and, since I believe his body is actually a clone of Xavierís thereís always one of Xavierís body ready. But letís say both Apocalypse and Charles always have bodies ready for their ressurection (Ďcause Iím too lazzy to go check :P), that would probably still mean Gabby doesnít have a body ready for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    If he tells the story from the perspective of a different character with each issue that would be a good way to explore them,especially since JDW said they will be changing the team members each year.
    SoÖ I donít think I read that on any of Dugganís actual interviews, but I read someone commenting about it. It could be the posterís wishful thinking or it could be that they saw an interview that I didnít.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    You can also ask Scott ;)
    Nah. Iím afraid heíll start babbling about his life, his dream, his happiness and his belief that he discovered the concept of Carpe Diem. :P

    Iíll take Magís booze instead. :D

  10. #4150
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    (Rang10, Iím not quoting you because Iíll try to approach it in more general term, but I read your message)

    Look, matters of taste are subjective. Fans have the right not to like the dress and I think here is a good place to vent about it and get support for their frustration.

    But there are certain objective issues here that we can discuss:

    1)Marvel Girl uniform isnít practical

    Well, if Jean cares about people seeing whatís under the skirt, she can just wear some shorts (and then the uniform is as practical as Illyanaís). If she doesnít care, itís not an issue for her. Whatever is your headcanon, the fact it is a skirt doesnít annoy her during the fight.

    The fact she skirt doesnít hug her thighs closely also allows her to move freely and it means that skirt wonít keep climbing up her legs.

    The neckline of the dress is much safer than the uniform Emma used on X-Men #3 (and most of the Utopia era) or this uniform of Ororoís:



    Donít get me started on the leotards. If they were drawn as a baillarina or gymnast leotard it would be one thing. But they rarely are, right?

    Other than that, most of the times, the boots of Marvel Girlís dress are flat or close to it.

    So, really Marvel Girlís uniform is, actually, quite practical, especially when you compare to what other heroines wear.

    2)The dress doesnít look like an uniform

    Fair enough. Letís say this is true for the sake of the argument. Why is that a problem for Jean when it isnít for Luke Cage? Or even Jessica Jones? Is it because Luke is a man and Jessica was wearing pants?

    Because if the answer is ďyesĒ thereís an intrinsec sexism here: if Luke is allowed to that because he is a man, thatís difference of treatment based on gender and thatís the definition of sexism.

    If Jessica is allowed because sheís wearing pants instead of a dress, thatís dictating what a woman is and is not allowed to wear (or what is "appropriate" for a woman to wear) and thatís oppressive, which is sexist.

    And if you simply donít like any of the three characters to be wearing something that doesnít look like a super hero uniform, thatís totally fine. But, please, understand it is a subjective view and treat it as such.

    3)It sexualises/objectifies Jean

    What sexualises/objectives a character isnít what theyíre wearing it is the objective choices (that arenít always made deliberately, but are still objective) involved in the artistic representation: pose, lightening, angle, framing, facial and body expressions etcÖ

    A character can be drawn completely naked without any trace of sexualisation/objectification or they can be wearing a nunís dress and look the very opposite.

    I donít remember Jean being drawn like this while wearing the Marvel Girl uniform in this era.

    4)It is regressive/sexist

    Thatís the discussion we were having here before.

    The way I see it, dictating what a female character can or canít, should or shouldnít wear, in 2021, *is* what is regressive and sexist. Not the dress.


    --

    Again: everyone has the right not to like the dress because the aesthetics doesnít match their personal taste. Thatís perfectly fine and I encourage them to vent their frustrations about it here, with other fans. I, for one, will be sympathetic.

    But when it comes to objective issues, I think itís fair to ask if the uniform is *actually* that bad. It seems to be Jean is getting a ďspecialĒ treatment here simply because people donít *like* the uniform.
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 06-14-2021 at 12:40 PM.

  11. #4151
    Incredible Member Exodus's Avatar
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    I don't know. I get what you mean when it comes to dictating a women what to wear. But let's face it, there is an EXTREMELY narrow gender-conforming idea of femininity in place when it comes to the X-books (masculinity as well of course). I'm just bored by flowy long-haired skinny women in sexy dresses. That's only one narrow aspect of femininity but it is the one that is still central in the x-books. What about bringing some female masculinity to the mix? Lorna, Jean, Rogue,...aesthetically speaking, they are all the exactly same barbie doll variation of cis-gendered femininity. I'm not dictating the hair style of a character but I would like to see some variation when it comes to the depiction of femininities in the x-books.

    I cannot not see the mini dress from the 60s as a symbol for the male gaze of its writers.

    I got the Marvel Girl action figure. it is actually hilarious that because of her minidress and heels, she is incapable to move or even stand. She is so ridiculously immobilized. lol That's not sexism to create an action figure that basically can only stand and look pretty in a dress?
    Last edited by Exodus; 06-14-2021 at 12:52 AM.

  12. #4152
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    I don't know. I get what you mean when it comes to dictating a women what to wear. But let's face it, there is an EXTREMELY narrow gender-conforming idea of femininity in place when it comes to the X-books (masculinity as well of course). I'm just bored by flowy long-haired skinny women in sexy dresses. That's only one narrow aspect of femininity but it is the one that is still central in the x-books. What about bringing some female masculinity to the mix? Lorna, Jean, Rogue,...aesthetically speaking, they are all the exactly same barbie doll variation of cis-gendered femininity. I'm not dictating the hair style of a character but I would like to see some variation when it comes to the depiction of femininities in the x-books.

    I cannot not see the mini dress from the 60s as a symbol for the male gaze of its writers.

    I got the Marvel Girl action figure. it is actually hilarious that because of her minidress and heels, she is incapable to move or even stand. She is so ridiculously immobilized. lol That's not sexism to create an action figure that basically can only stand and look pretty in a dress?
    I get it, my friend. And that's totally fine that you feel this way.

    You see? I have long hair and I like dressing up for parties, but on my day-to-day life I'm very sporty. I'm not girly at all. I've always enjoyed the stuff that were labelled as "things for boys" when I was growing up and it was so annoying that people kept pointing it out, sometimes in a mean way. I've been criticised for not wearing earrings and make-up and stuff like that. So, seriously: I *do* get it. I'd like to see more variation in female representation too (not on 616 Jean, though, because of continuity and characterization - but that's just my preference).

    Still, that's a personal view. You see the difference?

  13. #4153
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    https://aiptcomics.com/2021/06/14/x-...e-gala-week-2/

    AIPT: So, X-Fan Kat asked if now that Jean is the co-leader of the X-Men, will her codename change from Marvel Girl to Marvel Woman? This, along with Jean’s costume, is something X-Fans debate a lot. And the return of the Marvel Girl codename is an interesting choice, because I remember growing up, reading about how the Invisible Girl eventually became the Invisible Woman — probably in Wizard Magazine — and that just made sense. So in that context, it is a bit weird that Jean is going by Marvel Girl. Could you talk about this decision?

    Jordan: Oh, sure. Yeah well, first of all, I don’t think Marvel Woman sounds good.

    AIPT: I read The Infinity War trade paperback a year or two ago, and in that series, Jim Starlin refers to Jean as Marvel Woman. I think that’s the only time I’ve seen it used.

    Jordan: Yeah. Just, I don’t think it sounds great. I mean, the reason she’s called Marvel Girl is because Jean doesn’t have a lot of great codenames. She has, as far as I’m aware of, three I can think of off the top of my head. The third one was just Jean Grey. Now that’s the easiest one to probably just go back to if we were going to change it. There’s Marvel Girl, obviously, which she was for many years, and then there’s Phoenix — and she’s not Phoenix right now. So that was the deliberate choice that was made. We are not going to the Phoenix well, that’s why she’s not dressed in her Phoenix costume, obviously.

    And a secret: that’s why she’s dressed in this costume. This is the costume that she put on when she rejected the Phoenix.

    AIPT: Right.

    Jordan: So that’s what we brought her back to. Now, you’re right. The fact that she’s called Marvel Girl is interesting. I mean, Rachel has been Marvel Girl at one point, wearing a kind of similar outfit even. When we started the Dawn of X books, we were actually making a deliberate effort to try to come up with codenames for the characters who didn’t have them. It didn’t really work out. I won’t go into the whole thing, but there were efforts made to kind of go, “We’ll call this character this and we’ll call that character that,” and the one that stuck most was Jean as Marvel Girl, because, well, I think because she was Marvel Girl for so many years that people do, on some level, accept that as her name.

    But you’re right. It’s weird.

    We were talking about Weezer [before the interview]. And that just makes me think about Weezer because Rivers Cuomo is a 51-year-old man who does still sing songs to “girl” all the time. And it’s a little like, “huh.” I mean, he just means lady, but… I think calling her Marvel Woman seems unlikely. I think if we were going to change it, it would probably change either to a new name or Jean Grey, because Marvel Woman just doesn’t sound good to me.


    ---

    I can't... I just can't.

  14. #4154
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    I feel like we can disagree about the costume all we want but it makes a certain amount of sense. This costume represents Jean choosing herself to editorial and, ultimately, to herself.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  15. #4155
    Incredible Member andreikes's Avatar
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    I think they are empty words... Real... Only for Jean does the costume have such great value?
    It's one thing for her to wear the costume nostalgically before dying in the Phoenix Saga, another thing is for Duggan and Hickman to say that...

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