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  1. #1216
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    The funniest thing about the "Jean is a telepathic snoop" angle is that he would literally have all the other telepaths in his cast casually and indiscriminately read the minds of friends and enemies alike. Moreover the very issue next issue, after he in-story has characters call out Jean's behavior, the Stepford Cuckoos are literally reading Teen Jean's mind without her permission. Except only Teen Jean was called out for her telepathic behavior after receiving her power fairly early yet no attention was brought towards all the other long-tenured X-telepaths who used their powers without consequence.


    Jean and wasted story opportunities due to editorial influence, name a more iconic duos, Rosenberg set the stage for Jean's return but NOTHING about it was done to celebrate her. It was all because Rosenberg had such a hard on for deconstructing all things X-men.


    All the senior X-men do feel off, not that I expect them to immediately recognize what's happening but I did expect at least something like this:


    Telepaths reading minds gonna happen anyway, it is their power. I think the worse scene is that a new kids was having fantasies about the cuckoos on HIS OWN MIND, then they said for him never do it or they would lobotomize him. I mean, what they were ding on his head? he had the right to privacy.
    But for some reason teen Jean is the bad girl for not controlling a power she didn't knew she had.
    If Jean is always reading minds, she getting cheated on and already knowing about Krakoa would be the reality.

    The situation is even worse, everyone stopped trusting on Xavier after they learned about deadly genesis. So everyone going to krakoa is really crazy

    We only saw Wolverine questioning. Now it isn't just one villain, but alot of them including Mastermind. That was the worse they could choose to ressurrect

  2. #1217
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Why? The end of Taylor was a nod to how the Nova arc was resolved in Morrison's New X-men, which helped inspire Taylor's writing for Jean

    In both situations, the way to deal with Nova wasnt to kill or punish her, but rather to heal her. In both times, Jean noticed she lacked empathy. In New X-men, they trapped her in Stuff as she and Xavier psychically rehabilitated her. In Red, she skipped that and went straight to rehabilitating her by mentally giving her the ability to feel empathy. The ending to Red 100% alligns with Jean's previous characterization. Taylor accomplished exactly what he was going for
    Because Cassandra helped kill sixteen million mutants on Genosha. Nova also made a senator's head explode, killed a child, and a number of soldiers in Red. Giving someone compassion and empath, doesn't undue those things. Jean had a problem with Xavier wanting to rehabilitate Sabretooth, and I don't think she would want to do the same with Nova. I'll admit I had forgotten how Morrison ended things with Nova, but it seems more complex than what Taylor did. Cassandra was trapped before, where in Red I guess she was left to her own devices? We don't really know what happened after Jean has that device implanted in her.

    Giving an incredibly powerful telepath artificial empathy via a device isn't going to last forever, and Jean should have come up with something more creative to deal with Nova. I get people won't agree, but that just how I feel about it.

  3. #1218
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Telepaths reading minds gonna happen anyway, it is their power. I think the worse scene is that a new kids was having fantasies about the cuckoos on HIS OWN MIND, then they said for him never do it or they would lobotomize him. I mean, what they were ding on his head? he had the right to privacy.
    But for some reason teen Jean is the bad girl for not controlling a power she didn't knew she had.
    If Jean is always reading minds, she getting cheated on and already knowing about Krakoa would be the reality.

    The situation is even worse, everyone stopped trusting on Xavier after they learned about deadly genesis. So everyone going to krakoa is really crazy

    We only saw Wolverine questioning. Now it isn't just one villain, but alot of them including Mastermind. That was the worse they could choose to ressurrect
    Shoot in Astonishing X-men, he mindwiped Mystique, Rogue, OML, Bishop, Gambit, Warren, Jean, Bobby and Hank. I want to know if they ever learned that he did that to them bc it doesnt fit that all of them, especially Mystique would be cool with him

  4. #1219
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    Taylor had the right idea, but for the story to fully land to me, Jean and Cassandra should have had to face off solo. I get what he was attempting to do, and the first half of the run was great but the whole trying to rehabilitate Cassandra Nova was a step too far into the pacifist Jean. And unfortunately it did nothing for Jean, and the X-men were still tracking her down in Rosenberg's Uncanny X-men!
    X-men were tacking her because ONE was asking for mutants villains reformed or not. Seems like she continued to be good, ONE catched her easily

  5. #1220
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    I love that Jean is empathetic. Even for defeated foes.

    But what I do not understand is Jean reaching her hand out to Cassandra Nova. Look what happened the last time she let her guard down with Xorneto/Magnexorn.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  6. #1221
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I love that Jean is empathetic. Even for defeated foes.

    But what I do not understand is Jean reaching her hand out to Cassandra Nova. Look what happened the last time she let her guard down with Xorneto/Magnexorn.
    With Cassandra Jean never let her guard down. That dead on Xorneto was really stupid

  7. #1222
    Fantastic Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    All the senior X-men do feel off, not that I expect them to immediately recognize what's happening but I did expect at least something like this:
    I miss the X-Men feeling like a family. I miss Harry’s Hideaway.
    The quiet council just feels wrong in comparison to how they usually dealt with important stuff.

    And I miss the natural air of authority Jean had here.
    Around here the 90s started being good to Jean.

  8. #1223
    Incredible Member Micabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysv75 View Post
    The way Jeen used her powers here was such a perfect way of having her beginning to reach her unlimited potential, without the silliness the Phoenix force had become. That she isn’t doing this anymore is such a shame. This is the goddess Jean I know and love.
    It is a pity, isn't it as there is no reason Adult Jean can't currently do exactly what Teen Jean did since Adult Jean is Teen Jean and currently has her memories.

  9. #1224
    Fantastic Member andreikes's Avatar
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    The sad thing is, Jean from the hickman doesn't question anything ... She had Xavier's mind on x force ... And even her move out of (the council) was something Xavier had expected. Even Emma is dropping hints about Moira

  10. #1225
    All-New Member Psych1c's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micabe View Post
    It is a pity, isn't it as there is no reason Adult Jean can't currently do exactly what Teen Jean did since Adult Jean is Teen Jean and currently has her memories.
    The only reason is they don't want her to be strong and develop to be the powerhouse she's supposed to be. There is NO valid reason for her to not use her psychic siphoning, just because I'm driving a bicycle it doesn't mean I forget how to drive a car. I may not recall it instantly but the skill is there, I just have to use and develop it. "She just doesn't use it anymore because that's something she used to do back then" LOL

    They want to keep her as an usual telepath that often forgets she has telekinesis and can barely defend herself in most situations. Allowing a character to shine and get the spotlight is one thing, but it seems to be a routine to make the redhead look weak. I don't want to read she's one of the best, I want to see it consistently. Teen Jean was one of the best things to happen, she developed powerwise the way she was supposed to and the best part: phoenixless. It debunked she was only powerful when she's Phoenix.

    It's tiring to see people demeaning her because it's mostly about what is said, not displayed. The last time we've seen a powerful display of her telekinesis was when she atomized those creatures. Thankfully she was in X-force and got some great moments.

  11. #1226
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    The goofy thing is they don't seem to want Jean powerful as herself. And they do not want her to be Phoenix. But at other times they want to use the Phoenix imagery.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  12. #1227
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Just some thoughts from reading over the last few pages of posts..

    I love X-men Red but I recognize some of the problems. I loved that Jean was in a starring role and that she was the leader of a team and had her own vision for mutants "Our new mutant nation starts here". I thought Jean was a little too passive and or pacifist in some respects but overall I loved that she was confident, capable, and portrayed as powerful. I get the criticisms of neoliberalism and not being radical enough politically but as a basic X-men story I thought it was good. I also think the book had a message for the comicsgate crowd and wasn't making a grand political statement on the scale others thought it was. Taylor def. had a message in his books and I do think the ending could have been better and was too close to "all sides". Jean is a compassionate character and she did show compassion for Nova but I understand people having a problem with it due to her past actions .... the genocide but the X-men have more then one member responsible for genocide and again this is a fictional world not a real life one.

    There are also criticisms online of X-men Red being a white savior story but I don't see quite that way due to basically being a Jean Grey stealth solo so it was always going to be her story. The book did have a diverse cast, but Jean was the star (she did help Gentle but some fans feel that he shouldn't have needed Jean's help and should have developed on his own, and others were upset at how Jean easily dispatched Storm when she was controlled by Nova). Another issue was Jean forgiving the soldiers in the issue where she merged the minds of some folks and the soldiers so that they could see each others humanity or whatever. I've read numerous criticism of that scene. To me it was in character because telepaths should see beyond the social - beyond society, culture, socialization, norms, values, etc. She merged their minds so the soldiers couldn't "other" their victims.

    Also, I've read criticism where people talk about hatred against mutants exists without a sentinite in someone's brain which is true but the story never says that Cassandra created hatred but that she amplified it in people and some people who had bias against mutants took extra steps due to the manipulation from the sentinites (for example the mother who tried to kill her daughter.. she wouldn't ordinarily do that but the sentinel in her brain pushed her to an extreme). The story is clear that it wasn't saying all anti mutant prejudice was caused by Nova, but there was an uptick in hate crimes and Nova was contributing to it.

    Again the commentary was on online radicalization. Some people are bad and will do bad things, some people can obviously be radicalized and do even worse things they may not have if they hadn't been radicalized (we see this a lot in certain online subcultures, terrorism. etc.) Look no further in the US than Jan 6 th to see results of online radicalization through lies mass spread through social media and other media outlets (one of the big themes of X-men Red and Jean's message was to weaponize the truth against the lies).

    I think in a lot of areas X-men Red was successful (and timely) and it was a good book for Jean. It could have been better like most works could be and it would have been better if it had been longer. The ending was a little weaker than its start but overall it was an enjoyable book. The book was praised as it came out . Fans seem to enjoy it but the narrative now (that I see online all the time) is that it wasn't as good as everyone thought and the major criticisms is that it had a neoliberal politics and that Taylor's work was problematic.

    On Ghost Jean.. I still maintain that she was great. Yes there was desperation (time was running out and the Phoenix was coming) and yes she wasn't patient with herself (Teen Jean) but Jean shown emotion, a fiery temper, and she had a personality that I found enjoyable. I knew from the first issue where Teen Jean was hearing voices it was Adult Jean. I thought Hopeless nailed her voice. I realize I'm in the minority. People here at the time was convinced it was a villain manipulating Teen Jean.

    This became tl:dr. Sorry!

  13. #1228
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    The goofy thing is they don't seem to want Jean powerful as herself. And they do not want her to be Phoenix. But at other times they want to use the Phoenix imagery.
    X-men is one of the most statics franchises on comics, So Jean is forced into a box were she can't grow anyway.
    Avengers had Falcon, Black panther and Monica as leaders. A lot more of diversity than X-books

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post

    On Ghost Jean.. I still maintain that she was great. Yes there was desperation (time was running out and the Phoenix was coming) and yes she wasn't patient with herself (Teen Jean) but Jean shown emotion, a fiery temper, and she had a personality that I found enjoyable. I knew from the first issue where Teen Jean was hearing voices it was Adult Jean. I thought Hopeless nailed her voice. I realize I'm in the minority. People here at the time was convinced it was a villain manipulating Teen Jean.

    This became tl:dr. Sorry!
    The story was already crappy to start, Phoenix couldn't kill Jeean because she had to grow up to be the adult one.

    I really don't get Ghost Jean being desperate, but just being a a-hole for the sake of the story

    Hopeless writing the solo was a lot of waste of a book. A female writer could had told a more interesting story
    Last edited by Rang10; 03-03-2021 at 10:25 AM.

  14. #1229
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    X-men is one of the most statics franchises on comics, So Jean is forced into a box were she can't grow anyway.
    Avengers had Falcon, Black panther and Monica as leaders. A lot more of diversity than X-books



    The story was already crappy to start, Phoenix couldn't kill Jeean because she had to grow up to be the adult one.

    I really don't get Ghost Jean being desperate, but just being a a-hole for the sake of the story

    Hopeless writing the solo was a lot of waste of a book. A female writer could had told a more interesting story
    I didn't like the solo book for a number of reasons, but Ghost Jean felt more like Emma at times and Emma felt like Jean. I was hoping it was going to go somewhere decent but then Resurrection ended it.

  15. #1230
    ᱬ Master Of Chaos ᱬ Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micabe View Post
    It is a pity, isn't it as there is no reason Adult Jean can't currently do exactly what Teen Jean did since Adult Jean is Teen Jean and currently has her memories.
    This is how adult Jean should be using her combining TP and TK like Teen Jean did

    I know this Is not cannon but still



    The truth is that Jeen was written to be powerful and showcase her abilities unlike in the current eras

    Check out my (616) Scarlet Witch Respect Thread:


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