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  1. #1246
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starduck View Post
    What are your hopes for the Hickman X-men team? Mine are that Jean gets equal leadership to Scott amd that she remembers to use her tk
    I'm done setting myself up for disappointment, every time the character has something good going for herself marvel takes it away and she gets relegated to the same old narrative box if not outright killed off.
    Whatever happens I'll believe it when I'll see it but I'm done hoping or chasing this "unicorn".
    "Can we just say that she is a chaos magic avatar and that her origin is split across the multiverse? She has no beginning, she has no end, she exists to be the improbability of the cosmos. She's neither mutant, inhuman, sorcereress or otherwise. Everything and nothing." (Anonymous)

  2. #1247
    Fantastic Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    What are your favorite/most memorable Jean moments? Off the top of your head. No peaking in the comic books.

    Uncanny X-Men 125 is my first X-book. I fell in love with Jean at once. Her beauty, power, intelligence. She was kind and caring, but also passionate and a bit mischievous. She was very human at the same time as she was almost like a goddess.
    (It was in this issue Moira thought about Jean’s potential to become a goddess, a potential she had always had.)

    Since then I have read all the issues before 125, and yes, Jean’s sacrifice and becoming Phoenix stands out and how she saved the universe in the M’Kraan crystal are great moments. But around 125, Claremont and John Byrne had truly found their stride.
    I loved the moment when they fought the Hellfire Club and Dazzler was in awe of Jean. And the sweet moment where Jean comforted Kitty.
    Right before everything went south, Jean and Scott had a wonderful moment in the ... desert? New Mexico? Jean told Scott to take off his glasses, she held back his optic blast and they made love.
    I was so worried for Jean when she was the black queen and both horrified and in awe when she became Dark Phoenix. I cried when she took her life on the moon in order to save the universe.
    (It feels so strange and sad, writing this when I know what happens to the Phoenix force myth at this moment over in Avengers.)

    I liked Jean’s return but felt cheated when I learned that the Jean I fell in love with hadn’t been Jean. I really disliked the retcon. But Jean had some good moments in early X-Factor where she showed off how powerful her TK was, making Scott worried she would become Phoenix ”again”.

    Inferno gave Jean all the memories of the Phoenix, which made me somewhat okay with the retcon. Somewhat. (Today, the Phoenix force is a joke, unfortunately.)

    I liked how Jean at the end of the X-Factor run got her telepathy back, and I loved the Apocalypse files they had at the back of these issues, where he talked about the terrible energies inside her. And he made fun of her name, how a woman could be okay with being called Marvel Girl. (30 years later she is called Marvel Girl again. Sigh.)

    Then in the early 90s when she re-joined the X-Men she had some bad years. She had a nice moment in UXM #300 when she sent an Acolyte flying miles away with her TK blast. And she looked so damn awesome doing it. Favorite John Romita Jr moment.
    And then in X-Men 28 she kicked Sabretooth’s butt. It shouldn’t be considered impressive since she is so much more powerful than him, but it was a nice moment and after that Jean was often allowed to shine.
    Her proposal to Scott was sweet and I liked the wedding issue (X-Men 30), even though the song choice (One by U2) was so weird and I can’t believe Nicieza got away with it.
    I loved The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, and Jean had consistently nice showings after that. The mid 90s was good to her. Nothing really stands out until Onslaught I guess. I love that moment where he tempts her and almost makes her become the Phoenix again. And after Onslaught Jean was known as the most powerful telepath in the world. I loved that.

    I loved X-Men 70 and the pink Phoenix effect. I loved Seagle and Bachalo’s attempt to give Jean back her Phoenix powers over in Uncanny X-Men. She was so incredibly powerful here, but in a subtle way. There was a Wolverine issue around this time (with incredible art by Yu) where Jean was crazy powerful as Phoenix.

    Claremont’s comeback to X-Men was a bit of a letdown but he gave us several great Jean as Phoenix moments and I liked the Revolution costume.

    I loved the way Morrison wrote Jean. Yes, it was a shame that things ended the way they did, but up until that moment: perfection.

    Teen Jean had some nice moments. I loved how they always talked about how powerful she was. I loved her trial and how she tapped into new power levels here, beating Gladiator. There was an issue where Beast had her take apart Wolverine’s motorcycle and he said that the way she used her TK rivaled Phoenix’s.

    X-Men Red and the return of Jean was amazing. The standout for me was the annual where Jean said that the Phoenix had been holding her back. I had goosebumps, couldn’t wait to see what amazing things she would do.
    I am still waiting.

  3. #1248
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    I just hope she gets a couple issues which shows off her personality, I genuinely don't care about anything else. I just want her to be compassionate, firm, and dynamic she could be ko'd every issue and I wouldn't care as long as she gets to demonstrate a range of emotions and not superficial moments which leads to nothing.
    Ditto on the range of emotions. I want Jean to be portrayed as a layered and complex character. I do of course want her to be powerful and competent... and I think she will be even though it may not always be to our tastes. Being equal to Scott as a leader would be nice and the occasional use of tk would be better, but I just want the character to get more use and to play vital roles in an arc or story. It would be great if she had her own story or subplot but I wouldn't expect either. I do hope this new X-men team is diverse and that they have a lot of interesting adventures and conflicts ahead.

    Since they are starting a new team I am also hoping for new costumes but I'm not sure if it is best to get my hopes up. The looks on Sword and X-factor are so good and so X-force looks shabby in comparison. The new X-men team needs to look great so I hope for some new looks for a bold new team.

  4. #1249
    Mighty Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysv75 View Post
    What are your favorite/most memorable Jean moments? Off the top of your head. No peaking in the comic books.

    Uncanny X-Men 125 is my first X-book. I fell in love with Jean at once. Her beauty, power, intelligence. She was kind and caring, but also passionate and a bit mischievous. She was very human at the same time as she was almost like a goddess.
    (It was in this issue Moira thought about Jean’s potential to become a goddess, a potential she had always had.)

    Since then I have read all the issues before 125, and yes, Jean’s sacrifice and becoming Phoenix stands out and how she saved the universe in the M’Kraan crystal are great moments. But around 125, Claremont and John Byrne had truly found their stride.
    I loved the moment when they fought the Hellfire Club and Dazzler was in awe of Jean. And the sweet moment where Jean comforted Kitty.
    Right before everything went south, Jean and Scott had a wonderful moment in the ... desert? New Mexico? Jean told Scott to take off his glasses, she held back his optic blast and they made love.
    I was so worried for Jean when she was the black queen and both horrified and in awe when she became Dark Phoenix. I cried when she took her life on the moon in order to save the universe.
    (It feels so strange and sad, writing this when I know what happens to the Phoenix force myth at this moment over in Avengers.)

    I liked Jean’s return but felt cheated when I learned that the Jean I fell in love with hadn’t been Jean. I really disliked the retcon. But Jean had some good moments in early X-Factor where she showed off how powerful her TK was, making Scott worried she would become Phoenix ”again”.

    Inferno gave Jean all the memories of the Phoenix, which made me somewhat okay with the retcon. Somewhat. (Today, the Phoenix force is a joke, unfortunately.)

    I liked how Jean at the end of the X-Factor run got her telepathy back, and I loved the Apocalypse files they had at the back of these issues, where he talked about the terrible energies inside her. And he made fun of her name, how a woman could be okay with being called Marvel Girl. (30 years later she is called Marvel Girl again. Sigh.)

    Then in the early 90s when she re-joined the X-Men she had some bad years. She had a nice moment in UXM #300 when she sent an Acolyte flying miles away with her TK blast. And she looked so damn awesome doing it. Favorite John Romita Jr moment.
    And then in X-Men 28 she kicked Sabretooth’s butt. It shouldn’t be considered impressive since she is so much more powerful than him, but it was a nice moment and after that Jean was often allowed to shine.
    Her proposal to Scott was sweet and I liked the wedding issue (X-Men 30), even though the song choice (One by U2) was so weird and I can’t believe Nicieza got away with it.
    I loved The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, and Jean had consistently nice showings after that. The mid 90s was good to her. Nothing really stands out until Onslaught I guess. I love that moment where he tempts her and almost makes her become the Phoenix again. And after Onslaught Jean was known as the most powerful telepath in the world. I loved that.

    I loved X-Men 70 and the pink Phoenix effect. I loved Seagle and Bachalo’s attempt to give Jean back her Phoenix powers over in Uncanny X-Men. She was so incredibly powerful here, but in a subtle way. There was a Wolverine issue around this time (with incredible art by Yu) where Jean was crazy powerful as Phoenix.

    Claremont’s comeback to X-Men was a bit of a letdown but he gave us several great Jean as Phoenix moments and I liked the Revolution costume.

    I loved the way Morrison wrote Jean. Yes, it was a shame that things ended the way they did, but up until that moment: perfection.

    Teen Jean had some nice moments. I loved how they always talked about how powerful she was. I loved her trial and how she tapped into new power levels here, beating Gladiator. There was an issue where Beast had her take apart Wolverine’s motorcycle and he said that the way she used her TK rivaled Phoenix’s.

    X-Men Red and the return of Jean was amazing. The standout for me was the annual where Jean said that the Phoenix had been holding her back. I had goosebumps, couldn’t wait to see what amazing things she would do.
    I am still waiting.
    No lies detected. That is a great list and sums up the characters best moments!

    My fav Jean scenes are from Grant Morrison's New X-men (yeah I know I'm a broken record at this point). I loved the issue of Imperial when Jean downloads Xavier's mind. It was an impressive stunt but beyond that it shows the lengths Jean would go to save Xavier (or anyone she loves). I love everything about those pages. "Die Charles, I'm going to catch you". That scene gave me chills the first time I read it.

    Another one is in Here Comes Tomorrow when Wolverine tells Jean how long it has been since he saw her last. I felt for Jean in that moment. My heart sunk for her. Imagine what it must feel like to come back and most of your loved ones are long gone. It also shows the price and burden of being a Phoenix. Then of course I loved the ending where Jean amputates the wounded orphan universe. Seeing Jean as the White Phoenix and the callback to the classic X-men issue where she first donned the look was excellent. It was perfection for me. I bought multiple copies. It reminds me of the reruns of grief for Jean as in Phoenix Resurrection the character comes back and finds that Scott and almost her entire family are dead. How traumatic would that be (though I did not enjoy Phoenix Resurrection as a whole especially the redefining of the relationship between Jean and Phoenix).


    In the 90's my fav Jean stuff comes from Onslaught.. a story that is a joke these days but I loved her first experience with Onslaught, her team up with the Juggernaut, etc. Other 90's moments I loved include the usual suspects: X-men 28, the Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, etc.

  5. #1250
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starduck View Post
    What are your hopes for the Hickman X-men team? Mine are that Jean gets equal leadership to Scott amd that she remembers to use her tk
    Now we all know neither of those things is going to happen.

    Cyclops is going to be THE leader and if they were going to have Jean as his equal, she'd be leading a different team. She was stripped of what leadership roles she had to go back to being the leader's love interest, meaning her position with the Red team and her short stint as part of Krakoan government.


    As for her TK...lol. Let's just hope she is occasionally competent lol
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  6. #1251
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Now we all know neither of those things is going to happen.

    Cyclops is going to be THE leader and if they were going to have Jean as his equal, she'd be leading a different team. She was stripped of what leadership roles she had to go back to being the leader's love interest, meaning her position with the Red team and her short stint as part of Krakoan government.


    As for her TK...lol. Let's just hope she is occasionally competent lol
    Nice observation. Hickman really likes to focus on men and their stories, usually women are supporting characters.

    First Jean thas to remember to use TK

    I really would like to Hickman do a good hjob on Jean, really surprise

  7. #1252
    Fantastic Member andreikes's Avatar
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    If Hickman didn’t write something good about her with a nice development, since the first edition ... I don’t believe he’s going to write it now… I hope she has a little bit of the latest edition of SoX

  8. #1253
    Mighty Member nightw1ng's Avatar
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    Has anyone been watching WandaVision? I've been loving it; and in some ways, it feels like the Dark Phoenix Saga done right compared to Fox's attempts. It shows what can be done when you're faithful to the source material and given enough runtime to develop the plot and characters.

  9. #1254
    Mighty Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightw1ng View Post
    Has anyone been watching WandaVision? I've been loving it; and in some ways, it feels like the Dark Phoenix Saga done right compared to Fox's attempts. It shows what can be done when you're faithful to the source material and given enough runtime to develop the plot and characters.
    It's a good thing Wanda story started many movies ago too. SO Marvel took time to tell her story, Fox on second movie already wanted to redo dark phoenix

  10. #1255
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightw1ng View Post
    Has anyone been watching WandaVision? I've been loving it; and in some ways, it feels like the Dark Phoenix Saga done right compared to Fox's attempts. It shows what can be done when you're faithful to the source material and given enough runtime to develop the plot and characters.
    I don't disagree with the comparison of how to setup a good "fall and redemption" arc for a character. The series itself was remarkably done and a wonderful and sad introspection on dealing with grief. It also clearly sets Wanda's abilities apart from being telekinetic and telepathic, as to make ample room for a future Jean Grey to appear in the MCU.
    Meanwhile spoilers:
    did anyone else feel the beginning of the post credit scene was VERY taken from X-2 when Jean is narrating from under Alkali Lake before we see the firebird under the water? Clearly it goes in a different direction but that shot was super reminiscent of that for me
    end of spoilers

  11. #1256
    Fantastic Member andreikes's Avatar
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    I hope to see Jean launching cars just like Wanda does in MCU

    And this part of Agatha talking about being the scarlet witch ... I would imagine something like a Celestial talking about the Phoenix to Jean.
    Last edited by andreikes; 03-05-2021 at 09:30 AM.

  12. #1257
    Incredible Member starduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreikes View Post
    I hope to see Jean launching cars just like Wanda does in MCU

    And this part of Agatha talking about being the scarlet witch ... I would imagine something like a Celestial talking about the Phoenix to Jean.
    I'd love to see Jean fly around throwing stuff with her tk on the mcu. I hope they introduce mutants asap

  13. #1258
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starduck View Post
    I'd love to see Jean fly around throwing stuff with her tk on the mcu. I hope they introduce mutants asap
    Oh yeah! I hope they do Jean right as the powerful Omega Telepath and Telekinetic that we all know her to be.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  14. #1259

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    The goofy thing is they don't seem to want Jean powerful as herself. And they do not want her to be Phoenix. But at other times they want to use the Phoenix imagery.
    I have never understood how Marvel will trot the Phoenix Force out to be used by any and everyone yet they REFUSE to allow Jean to have stories with it. I say this as someone who doesn't even care if she has the force but it is weird how many stories have been told with the Phoenix yet no one ever thinks to use the woman who made it famous.

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    Just some thoughts from reading over the last few pages of posts..

    I love X-men Red but I recognize some of the problems. I loved that Jean was in a starring role and that she was the leader of a team and had her own vision for mutants "Our new mutant nation starts here". I thought Jean was a little too passive and or pacifist in some respects but overall I loved that she was confident, capable, and portrayed as powerful. I get the criticisms of neoliberalism and not being radical enough politically but as a basic X-men story I thought it was good. I also think the book had a message for the comicsgate crowd and wasn't making a grand political statement on the scale others thought it was. Taylor def. had a message in his books and I do think the ending could have been better and was too close to "all sides". Jean is a compassionate character and she did show compassion for Nova but I understand people having a problem with it due to her past actions .... the genocide but the X-men have more then one member responsible for genocide and again this is a fictional world not a real life one.

    There are also criticisms online of X-men Red being a white savior story but I don't see quite that way due to basically being a Jean Grey stealth solo so it was always going to be her story. The book did have a diverse cast, but Jean was the star (she did help Gentle but some fans feel that he shouldn't have needed Jean's help and should have developed on his own, and others were upset at how Jean easily dispatched Storm when she was controlled by Nova). Another issue was Jean forgiving the soldiers in the issue where she merged the minds of some folks and the soldiers so that they could see each others humanity or whatever. I've read numerous criticism of that scene. To me it was in character because telepaths should see beyond the social - beyond society, culture, socialization, norms, values, etc. She merged their minds so the soldiers couldn't "other" their victims.

    Also, I've read criticism where people talk about hatred against mutants exists without a sentinite in someone's brain which is true but the story never says that Cassandra created hatred but that she amplified it in people and some people who had bias against mutants took extra steps due to the manipulation from the sentinites (for example the mother who tried to kill her daughter.. she wouldn't ordinarily do that but the sentinel in her brain pushed her to an extreme). The story is clear that it wasn't saying all anti mutant prejudice was caused by Nova, but there was an uptick in hate crimes and Nova was contributing to it.

    Again the commentary was on online radicalization. Some people are bad and will do bad things, some people can obviously be radicalized and do even worse things they may not have if they hadn't been radicalized (we see this a lot in certain online subcultures, terrorism. etc.) Look no further in the US than Jan 6 th to see results of online radicalization through lies mass spread through social media and other media outlets (one of the big themes of X-men Red and Jean's message was to weaponize the truth against the lies).

    I think in a lot of areas X-men Red was successful (and timely) and it was a good book for Jean. It could have been better like most works could be and it would have been better if it had been longer. The ending was a little weaker than its start but overall it was an enjoyable book. The book was praised as it came out . Fans seem to enjoy it but the narrative now (that I see online all the time) is that it wasn't as good as everyone thought and the major criticisms is that it had a neoliberal politics and that Taylor's work was problematic.

    On Ghost Jean.. I still maintain that she was great. Yes there was desperation (time was running out and the Phoenix was coming) and yes she wasn't patient with herself (Teen Jean) but Jean shown emotion, a fiery temper, and she had a personality that I found enjoyable. I knew from the first issue where Teen Jean was hearing voices it was Adult Jean. I thought Hopeless nailed her voice. I realize I'm in the minority. People here at the time was convinced it was a villain manipulating Teen Jean.

    This became tl:dr. Sorry!
    Love your thoughtful responses!

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    Ditto on the range of emotions. I want Jean to be portrayed as a layered and complex character. I do of course want her to be powerful and competent... and I think she will be even though it may not always be to our tastes. Being equal to Scott as a leader would be nice and the occasional use of tk would be better, but I just want the character to get more use and to play vital roles in an arc or story. It would be great if she had her own story or subplot but I wouldn't expect either. I do hope this new X-men team is diverse and that they have a lot of interesting adventures and conflicts ahead.

    Since they are starting a new team I am also hoping for new costumes but I'm not sure if it is best to get my hopes up. The looks on Sword and X-factor are so good and so X-force looks shabby in comparison. The new X-men team needs to look great so I hope for some new looks for a bold new team.
    Agreed on everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    No lies detected. That is a great list and sums up the characters best moments!

    My fav Jean scenes are from Grant Morrison's New X-men (yeah I know I'm a broken record at this point). I loved the issue of Imperial when Jean downloads Xavier's mind. It was an impressive stunt but beyond that it shows the lengths Jean would go to save Xavier (or anyone she loves). I love everything about those pages. "Die Charles, I'm going to catch you". That scene gave me chills the first time I read it.

    Another one is in Here Comes Tomorrow when Wolverine tells Jean how long it has been since he saw her last. I felt for Jean in that moment. My heart sunk for her. Imagine what it must feel like to come back and most of your loved ones are long gone. It also shows the price and burden of being a Phoenix. Then of course I loved the ending where Jean amputates the wounded orphan universe. Seeing Jean as the White Phoenix and the callback to the classic X-men issue where she first donned the look was excellent. It was perfection for me. I bought multiple copies. It reminds me of the reruns of grief for Jean as in Phoenix Resurrection the character comes back and finds that Scott and almost her entire family are dead. How traumatic would that be (though I did not enjoy Phoenix Resurrection as a whole especially the redefining of the relationship between Jean and Phoenix).


    In the 90's my fav Jean stuff comes from Onslaught.. a story that is a joke these days but I loved her first experience with Onslaught, her team up with the Juggernaut, etc. Other 90's moments I loved include the usual suspects: X-men 28, the Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, etc.
    Agreed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Now we all know neither of those things is going to happen.

    Cyclops is going to be THE leader and if they were going to have Jean as his equal, she'd be leading a different team. She was stripped of what leadership roles she had to go back to being the leader's love interest, meaning her position with the Red team and her short stint as part of Krakoan government.


    As for her TK...lol. Let's just hope she is occasionally competent lol

    Probably very true!!!

  15. #1260
    Spectacular Member otipep_90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    I have never understood how Marvel will trot the Phoenix Force out to be used by any and everyone yet they REFUSE to allow Jean to have stories with it. I say this as someone who doesn't even care if she has the force but it is weird how many stories have been told with the Phoenix yet no one ever thinks to use the woman who made it famous.
    Bottom line, it’s sexism. There is an underside to the Dark Phoenix Saga that writers avoid. The fact that Jean was manipulated and rapped, which led to her becoming unhinged and committing suicide at the end.

    This is something no writer has been able to properly followup and use to evolve the character. Jean needs to reclaim the Phoenix Force and reshape her identify/destine as it prime avatar.

    For me this is why writers have pigeonholed her into the mother/wife role, air the saint/martyr, apprentice, or now as ‘the Marvel Girl’. Phoenix Resurrection was such a poor portrayal of Jean’s relationship with the Phoenix Force because it made her a victim of the Phoenix Force. It’s not an abusive boyfriend/husband or manipulative parent, it’s her POWER. ✊ Not one that was chosen for her as a child, but one that she willingly claimed as her birthright.

    There are many Marvel Characters that have dealt with trauma in their narratives and triumphed. Jean needs this kind of character progression. WandaVision has done a great job with Wanda, and her grief. I’m sure Captain Marvel will get a great story out of a Marcus or Rogue adaption in the MCU. After the #MeToo Movement I don’t know why Marvel hasn’t consider revisiting Jean’s trauma with Phoenix Force in a respectful and progressive way that would propel her to the leading character status and respect fans desire.

    Morrison’s run was heading there with giving Jean power and autonomy until her death. X-Men Red was successful in establishing her role as a credible leader, but this current era had been a disappointment in this regard. Hopefully the Hellfire Gala can get the ball rolling.

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