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  1. #8116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I liked many things about X-men Red even though I was critical at times on this very forum, and I get what they were saying... that Jean can push the limits of her powers without fear of the phoenix force taking hold. Though I admit that Taylor having Jean say she hasn't used cerebro without the fear of phoenix taking over was a bit much. Jean had been separated from the Phoenix before.

    I guess for me I just see Phoenix as Jean's perfect codename. I loved the versions of Jean as Phoenix so it is hard to let go. But I also love Jean without it and agree that she doesn't need it. I think it can add to her but I cringe at the idea that it takes something away from the character (because it doesn't for Rachel or any other phoenix host).
    Yeah, I agree. I like that age when she was Phoenix by name only during the Revolution and her aura was all fiery and not pink. Then X-Men Forever came out, then Morrisson. So she's got that momentum going and then bam, they killed her. Ugh.

  2. #8117
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    I’ll admit, if they were to reunite her with the Phoenix Force and give her back the codename, I wouldn’t complain. However, maybe it’s because I only recently (within the last six months) read Bendis’ run, but I grew so enamored with what he did with her - the way in which he underscored her key character traits, expanded on the scale and scope of her powers sans the Phoenix Force, mended and deepened her relationships with several characters, including Scott and Emma, and, overall, fleshed out her mythos - that I truly see that time and the stories and writers (e.g., Hopeless, Taylor, et al.) that came after as a new jumping-off point for her.

    I want to see those stories from 2012-2019 inform her character today. Granted, I have grown increasingly pleased with the way she has been written over the course of the last several months, and I suspect the writing for her is only going to get better, deeper, and more illuminating, so I’m certainly not complaining. Nevertheless, I want the writers to continue to explore her many facets separate and apart from the Phoenix Force for now. It would come across too gimmicky if they bonded her with it again so soon. I would rather the writers highlight why it was so drawn to her, which is something I think Bendis did brilliantly.

    Maybe in a few years, after they’ve finished establishing her within the upcoming new status quo, they can revisit her connection to the Phoenix Force, and it will feel fresh and new again. For now, I’m content. She’s in the flagship title, which I genuinely enjoy, and Duggan seems to be slowly mining her, i.e., her strengths and capabilities, while also treating her with much dignity and reverence. I just have this feeling I can’t quite articulate that the next couple of years are going to be great for her.
    Last edited by Mercury; 09-25-2021 at 05:49 AM.

  3. #8118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I’ll admit, if they were to reunite her with the Phoenix Force and give her back the codename, I wouldn’t complain. However, maybe it’s because I only recently (within the last six months) read Bendis’ run, but I grew so enamored with what he did with her - the way in which he underscored her key character traits, expanded on the scale and scope of her powers sans the Phoenix Force, mended and deepened her relationships with several characters, including Scott and Emma, and, overall, fleshed out her mythos - that I truly see that time and the stories and writers (e.g., Hopeless, Taylor, et al.) that came after as a new jumping off point for her.

    I want to see those stories from 2012-2019 inform her character today. Granted, I have grown increasingly pleased with the way she has been written over the course of the last several months, and I suspect the writing for her is only going to get better, deeper, and more illuminating, so I’m certainly not complaining. Nevertheless, I want the writers to continue to explore her many facets separate and apart from the Phoenix Force for now. It would come across too gimmicky if they bonded her with the it again so soon. I would rather the writers highlight why the it was so drawn to her, which is something I think Bendis did brilliantly.

    Maybe in a few years, after they’ve finished establishing her within the upcoming new status quo, they can revisit her connection to the Phoenix Force, and it will feel fresh and new again. For now, I’m content. She’s in the flagship, title, which I genuinely enjoy, and Duggan seems to be slowly mining her, i.e., her strengths and capabilities, while also treating her with much dignity and reverence. I just have this feeling I can’t quite articulate that the next couple of years are going to be great for her.
    We can see Jean has limitless Phoenix powers. It’s why Jean as Phoenix was able to save the universe twice. She’s an avatar, like the human incarnation of a god. Almost everyone else is simply possessed by it.

    She with strategy took down Knull, who defeated all of Earth’s heroes. The High Evolutionary speaks to Jean as a peer.

  4. #8119
    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    Just noticed your signature with this quote...Morrison's take on Jean&Scott is disgusting. He just sought to create a solution in search of a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    All his premise was as laughable as the designated replacement ……… morrison’s disposable view when it comes to these female characters is disgusting.
    I was mad the first time I heard about Morrison breaking them up. But that was before I'd read any comics lol

    As for the quote, yeah it's pretty cringey and trash, but it's stereotypical for writers that focus on Cyke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    The citation of the statement about Jean being Marvel Girl and not Phoenix and not a new identity needs an end quote to separate the editor response and your commentary, to be fair. They don't like her as Phoenix and didn't feel like doing a new costume and identity.. Prob worth mentioning that he gives the disclaimer that they just don't think "Marvel Woman" sounds good.

    Atom Eve from INVINCIBLE was mentioned as a Jean-alike. I'll have to look her up. The name alone reminds me of the homage to Jean in the Outback era of X-MEN...

    and of her iconic takedown of Sabretooth


    And in closing, a lovely Jean Marvel variant(s) by Shannon Maer that I hadn't seen before.
    No one says they have to use Marvel Woman, that's not an excuse. They just don't care that much about the character. Which is fine, they aren't going to give your Dazzlers or Oyas, etc any thought either lol
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 09-24-2021 at 08:23 PM.
    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  5. #8120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I was mad the first time I heard about Morrison breaking them up. But that was before I'd read any comics lol

    As for the quote, yeah it's pretty cringey and trash, but it's stereotypical for writers that focus on Cyke.



    No one says they have to use Marvel Woman, that's not an excuse. They just don't care that much about the character. Which is fine, they aren't going to give your Dazzlers or Oyas, etc any thought either lol
    Are you just trolling, Kitty? You seem like youíre just trying to upset some posters who are moving the current X-books and the current Jean.

    Iím not suggesting you like anything you donít, but why repeat the same points? Itís not changing anything at Marvel or among the fans? What are you gaining from this?

  6. #8121
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    You know thins that writers or editors did to get rid of Jean, her two main deaths, really just made her a much stronger and confident character long term.

    Look at all the development her psychic powers received under the Bendjs era. She may not use the pink
    Form, but the extent of her power was revealed against the Knull and when she contacted the Silver Surfer. She has now officially surpassed Xavier.

    Bendis snd the current writers in a sense went with the original Phoenix concept of Jean simply achieving her full potential as a psi.

    They just don’t call he pink form of the stuff she does now Phoenix.

    We said it before, the thing tbe Phoenix brought Jean originally was the cosmic awareness to do anything with her powers. She had the capability all along. Now we see her develop the ability to do these things herself, and it’s why she is the prime host.

  7. #8122
    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Just calling it as I see it. Also, Hickman made a point of saying she does not have the same potential that she used to. Exodus does, maybe. And the pink form isn't a thing anymore, per the editor.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 09-24-2021 at 10:36 PM.
    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  8. #8123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Hickman made a point of saying she does not have the same potential that she used to.
    Please do provide a source for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    And the pink form isn't a thing anymore, per the editor.
    Just to clarify, this is what White said. (And, honestly, I can't believe we're back to this again ��).

    AiPT!: Joshua Chayne‏ (@JoshuaChayne) had a question about Jean Grey (who appears in that Marvelous eXclusive image above) and her powers. Since both teen and adult Jean are the same character, does adult Jean now have the pink psi-body and psi-raptor power-up that the time-displaced Jean developed?

    Jordan: The answer is yes, but in regards to whether she will start using it, that remains to be seen. If you look at it from her point of view, it’s like she just remembered about this thing she used to do when she was a teenager. She hasn’t used it in a decade… well, I guess less, depending on how long she was dead, but you get my point. It’s not part of her routine, it’s not part of how she normally does things. I am sure there are things we all did all the time 10 years ago that we could still do, if we give it a go, but which are no longer our go-to things. For example, I used to play the keyboard a lot. I am sure if I sat down at one, I could work out how to do it again… but when I want to play music now, I play the ukulele.
    https://aiptcomics.com/2019/02/25/x-...nd-baconators/

    And this statement was made when Hickman's era was just getting ready to start.

  9. #8124
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    We can see Jean has limitless Phoenix powers. It’s why Jean as Phoenix was able to save the universe twice. She’s an avatar, like the human incarnation of a god. Almost everyone else is simply possessed by it.

    She with strategy took down Knull, who defeated all of Earth’s heroes. The High Evolutionary speaks to Jean as a peer.
    I agree. Also, she is an Omega Level mutant, which defines her as having limitless telepathic powers, so what you say certainly has been substantiated and is canon. That moment Duggan gave Jean with the High Evolutionary speaks a lot about not only her but how Duggan views her. It's a good sign, amongst many others he's given us.

  10. #8125
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Not many people caught this moment in Cable #12, but while Esme helps Jean keep Stryfe’s powers “in check,” it is Jean who both telekinetically removes his helmet and, after Esme says “finish it,” telepathically snatches his powers.




  11. #8126
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Not many people caught this moment in Cable #12, but while Esme helps Jean keep Stryfe’s powers “in check,” it is Jean who both telekinetically removes his helmet and, after Esme says “finish it,” telepathically snatches his powers.



    I do not put credence in Stryfe being a psychic. Logically, I know he is, but he is just….such a terrible character in my opinion. Like…..he was supposed to be Cable without the limits of the TO Virus….yet his power showings and character motivations just suck so badly.

    I think I am more glad that Jean didn’t succumb to any Stryfe feats instead of Jean having feats on Stryfe.

  12. #8127
    LET JEAN GREY BE FREE! Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Please do provide a source for this.



    Just to clarify, this is what White said. (And, honestly, I can't believe we're back to this again ��).



    https://aiptcomics.com/2019/02/25/x-...nd-baconators/

    And this statement was made when Hickman's era was just getting ready to start.
    She is no longer an Omega TK, per Hickman. By that definition, she does not have that kind of limitless potential. There was a note specifically about Jean Grey in the data page we are talking about. Don't very lightly gaslight me lol. As for White, why did you bold that first part? He goes on to try to explain that she, to mix in the metaphor, doesn't play keyboard anymore.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 09-25-2021 at 10:45 AM.
    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
    -Grant Morrison on how it was Jean's fault Scott cheated.

    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  13. #8128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    She is no longer an Omega TK, per Hickman. By that definition, she does not have that kind of limitless potential. There was a note specifically about Jean Grey in the data page we are talking about. Don't very lightly gaslight me lol. As for White, why did you bold that first part? He goes on to try to explain that she, to mix in the metaphor, doesn't play keyboard anymore.
    She's the best Telepath on the planet, I get why she isn't an omega level TP.Kinda renders the Phoenix useless.She still one of the stronger TP users as we see, but that's her upper limits.Making her an omega level TK would be a bad choice IMO.

  14. #8129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    She is no longer an Omega TK, per Hickman. By that definition, she does not have that kind of limitless potential. There was a note specifically about Jean Grey in the data page we are talking about. Don't very lightly gaslight me lol. As for White, why did you bold that first part? He goes on to try to explain that she, to mix in the metaphor, doesn't play keyboard anymore.
    First, I wasn't trying to gaslight you; I don't play those games. Second, as I suspected, Hickman never did say "she does not have the same potential that she used to." Thirdly, and most importantly, can you or anyone else direct me to the panel or page in which she was ever categorized as having Omega Level telekinesis? I know we like to assume that due to the fact that her initial Omega Level classification was a catch-all that included both of her power sets. However, in the past, i.e., prior to Hickman's run, I have only ever seen her referred to as an "Omega Level telepath" on-panel.

    As for why I bolded the first part of White's quote, I did so because it is the most important part of his statement. You see, he established what the constant (i.e., what is set in stone and considered canon) of Jean's powers is - i.e., her capabilities as displayed during her time-displacement - while he also elaborated on the variable (i.e., what is subject to change) of her powers - i.e., her capabilities as she chooses, or chose back in 2019, to express them. The latter isn't so important to me because it is subject to change. White himself makes this clear when he notes, "[I]n regards to whether she will start using it, that remains to be seen."

    I am more focused on what has been established as canon, which, essentially, is the toolbox that current and future writers can pull from to render their versions of our beloved characters. Per White, Jean's toolbox includes all that she did as a time-displaced teenager, since, after all, they are considered one and the same character, i.e., the latter isn't considered an alternate version of current Jean. Furthermore, White's statement regarding how she was choosing to use her powers in 2019 is understandable, especially if we take into consideration the fact that Hickman was on the verge of becoming the "Head of X" and would obviously go on to use her in a different way, i.e., for the most part, put her on the backburner.

    Nevertheless, your absolute statements about what she can and cannot do anymore and regarding how Marvel views her as a character not only continue to puzzle me but are also based on your own subjective view and not on what has been shown in the comics and expressed by the creatives in interviews.

  15. #8130
    Fantastic Member PyroFN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    First, I wasn't trying to gaslight you; I don't play those games. Second, as I suspected, Hickman never did say "she does not have the same potential that she used to." Thirdly, and most importantly, can you or anyone else direct me to the panel or page in which she was ever categorized as having Omega Level telekinesis? I know we like to assume that due to the fact that her initial Omega Level classification was a catch-all that included both of her power sets. However, in the past, i.e., prior to Hickman's run, I have only ever seen her referred to as an "Omega Level telepath" on-panel.




    And in reference to when Jean had an outburst against her teammates, Xavier scolds her about unleashing her tk in a violent way. This is why he says so,


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