Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[johnnysv75]

The people replying to my Hickman stan-post are not the ones I had in mind. Sorry if you felt called out.
It was one person who hasn’t written anything in this thread except when defending Hickman.

I love discussions and different opinions are needed, but this one person felt a bit biased.

[Soulsword323]

The people replying to my Hickman stan-post are not the ones I had in mind. Sorry if you felt called out.
It was one person who hasn’t written anything in this thread except when defending Hickman.

I love discussions and different opinions are needed, but this one person felt a bit biased.

No worries.

Wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad, just wanted to clarify that I am coming from a place of loving Jean, and not just defending Hickman.

[SiegePerilous02]

The people replying to my Hickman stan-post are not the ones I had in mind. Sorry if you felt called out.
It was one person who hasn’t written anything in this thread except when defending Hickman.

I love discussions and different opinions are needed, but this one person felt a bit biased.

No worries.

Wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad, just wanted to clarify that I am coming from a place of loving Jean, and not just defending Hickman.

Yes same. Sorry if my response was overly harsh as well.

[Devaishwarya]

No worries.

Wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad, just wanted to clarify that I am coming from a place of loving Jean, and not just defending Hickman.

Same here.

[WallStreeter]

She is in character, snark and pompous.



Get Weezy back to write a Jean grey comic. Both deserve a lot more.

Hicman really attracts a lots of loyal fans, the attacks on twitter on his critics are common



They look the less sex healthy.


I want to throw way the word world building, I want characters being well characterizated

True. Louise either created or developed Apocalypse, who played a heavy role in recent storylines. Actually, Ann Nocenti deserves more too. Louise edited some pretty major storylines, such as ending of Dark Phoenix, the Magik limited series, DOFP, the introduction of Rogue, etc. Ann was more mid 1980s, but both women had roles in the development of the many strong female X-Men characters we have today such as Emma Frost, Storm, Rogue, Kate Pryde Magik, etc, as well as characters in general from that time like the New Mutants, Longshot, etc.

[WallStreeter]

The issue here is thinking that there are no Jean fans who also like Hickman's run in general or see no serious issue with how he uses her, even if we want more. Or those of us for whom Morrison's Jean is our favorite iteration, despite disliking how Marvel kept her dead for too long afterward.

It's not the most welcoming atmosphere even for those that love Jean. Not all opinions on her have to be unanimous.

I´m a Jean fan. I love Hickman´s run. I don´t like his use of Jean at all. But she is not the only reason I read X-Men.

[SiegePerilous02]

I´m a Jean fan. I love Hickman´s run. I don´t like his use of Jean at all. But she is not the only reason I read X-Men.

I tend to follow writers more than sticking to characters no matter what, but I always love it when a writer i love writes a character I love. It's my ideal combo to get me excited for a run!

So the use of Jean so far is a letdown, but like you I'm reading this for X-Men in general. But I'm hoping for some Phoenix displays before this wraps up, and I wonder if Aaron using the Phoenix (dumbly) perhaps explains some of the under utilization of Jean so far.

[WallStreeter]

I tend to follow writers more than sticking to characters no matter what, but I always love it when a writer i love writes a character I love. It's my ideal combo to get me excited for a run!

So the use of Jean so far is a letdown, but like you I'm reading this for X-Men in general. But I'm hoping for some Phoenix displays before this wraps up, and I wonder if Aaron using the Phoenix (dumbly) perhaps explains some of the under utilization of Jean so far.

I definitely think Aaron using the Phoenix now means that Hickman couldn´t until Aaron wraps up this latest storyline. The X-Men office can blame themselves for the way they concluded the stupid Phoenix Resurrection. But I think the reason Aaron had to make Firehair basically prehistoric Jean means that the Phoenix is returning to the X-Office. I think when Hickman is ready to do amazing Phoenix/Jean stories that´s when we will see great usage. Though I mostly don´t like the stupid Phoenix contest, it solves a problem. It means due to their own actions the Avengers cannot say anything when Jean reclaims what is hers. I do like to see the Phoenix throughout Marvel Universe and I loved a prehistoric cavelady Phoenix forming the Avengers and that she was basically Jean. Aaron is giving us a template of how a powerful Jean/Phoenix can be a hero if she is giving the appropriate stories. We´ve really only seen it this century with Morrison and a little bit with Jeen developing her pink psionic powers.

[johnnysv75]

This was a good reminder for me that even though we share the love for Jean Grey we can have different views on just about everything else.

For me, Taylor’s X-Men Red was amazing. A powerful female character was front and center. She was confident, a great leader, she was powerful. She was the Jean Grey I know and love. She was going to explore how powerful she could become without the Phoenix holding her back. It was an exciting time to be a Jean fan. I have re-read X-Men Red so many times.

I liked the miniseries that introduced Hickman’s X-Men universe. It seemed daring. It wasn’t where I was hoping the X-Men would go, but it was innovative and well written.

But I hated the Marvel Girl dress and codename and I thought XoF #4 was horrible. The portrayal of Jean was such a huge step back compared to X-Men Red. Her portrayal was so awful that I was sure that something was wrong with her, that Xavier was holding her back. I thought that since Moira was an important player and that we way back in UXM #125 got to know that Moira knew Jean had the potential to be a goddess, Moira had now decided to hold Jean back so she wouldn’t stop the big plan. In UXM #125 Jean keeps her Phoenix powers in check so that they are at the level she was as Marvel Girl. I was sure that the Marvel Girl dress Hickman had Jean wear was a nod to that. But it has been too long and other writers have written Jean as competent and powerful, so it can’t be that.

When the monthly books came out I lost my interest in Hickman’s books. I liked X-Men #4, it was a great take on the mutant nation, and I loved loved loved #6 starring Mystique. But the other issues of X-Men were too much about Krakoa/Arakko. I couldn’t care less about that mythology. It seemed like Hickman was taking a mythology he wanted to write and shoehorned it into the X-Men Universe - instead of finding the best modern stories to tell within the existing universe. I think Morrison did daring, modern things that still felt like the X-Men. Hickman does not, in my opinion - he tells Hickman stories and not X-Men stories.

Since the miniseries that for the most part felt exciting I haven’t really seen any character development. The characters talk a lot, explaining the story and mythology, but nothing really happens to them as characters. It is a lot of tell and too little show. Way too much exposition.

I like Hellions and X-Factor. They are fun to read. And Marauders is decent. X-Force is good, but I sometimes think I mostly like it since I like Percy’s Jean.
But Hickman is of course a talented writer, his books are readable, unlike Excalibur which is the worst X-Men comic I have read since Chuck Austen.

Is Hickman misogynistic? Not him personally, no, I don’t think so. But I wasn’t a fan when he responded to criticism of the Marvel Girl dress by creating the freethethighs hashtag. It was probably meant to be tongue in cheek, but it came across as college humor and yes, it was a misogynistic joke.
Comics are mostly written by white straight men, edited by white straight men. Other mediums have made sure to include women, people of color, LGBTQ+-characters etc., since they realize that being inclusive is modern and necessary. Being inclusive is the future.
That is why it is such a shame that so many of the prominent X-Men at the moment are straight white men.
It seems like the X-Men are behind the times even though the try to look modern.

Yes, Hickman likes to write female characters like Monet and Emma, but they don’t do that much, they just have snarky oneliners.
But even though the straight white men get to be in the limelight, I am not sure they fare much better. Hickman seems mostly interested in his plot and in this world he has created - he doesn’t seem to care about the characters. The characters are mostly there to explain the world to the readers.
I think the X-Men deserve better than that.

But most of all, I just want to read a story where Jean is passionate, powerful, intelligent, confident - and a true protagonist.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

We're just waiting for the next cycle, tbh. This is not Jean Grey's era and it won't be.

Maybe the next writer will have some interest in her. She spent 15 years in the dirt and came back. A good five where she is just there to be Cyke's communication device won't kill her for good.

I just hope the coordination between the writers is something that continues even after Hickman.

Cates is probably the next "the guy". She might feature in his run.

[Triniking1234]

The people replying to my Hickman stan-post are not the ones I had in mind. Sorry if you felt called out.
It was one person who hasn’t written anything in this thread except when defending Hickman.

I love discussions and different opinions are needed, but this one person felt a bit biased.

Asking to not personally attack someone isn't being a "stan".

[Rang10]

We're just waiting for the next cycle, tbh. This is not Jean Grey's era and it won't be.

Maybe the next writer will have some interest in her. She spent 15 years in the dirt and came back. A good five where she is just there to be Cyke's communication device won't kill her for good.

I just hope the coordination between the writers is something that continues even after Hickman.

Cates is probably the next "the guy". She might feature in his run.

Not sure if Cates want to write X-men instead of just Wolveine or even a Gambit solo

It's dissapointing that after so much time that this is the treatment that she is getting. I thought about Red, it was happy accident that it happened

True. Louise either created or developed Apocalypse, who played a heavy role in recent storylines. Actually, Ann Nocenti deserves more too. Louise edited some pretty major storylines, such as ending of Dark Phoenix, the Magik limited series, DOFP, the introduction of Rogue, etc. Ann was more mid 1980s, but both women had roles in the development of the many strong female X-Men characters we have today such as Emma Frost, Storm, Rogue, Kate Pryde Magik, etc, as well as characters in general from that time like the New Mutants, Longshot, etc.

Nocenti and weezy are two of most important women on comics they wrote and edited many great comics. I was pissed when apocalypse movie didn't even credited Weezy as apocalypse creator

[Celestialbodies]

Yeah, this is where I'm at.

Most X-Men continuity once we get past Claremont is complete nonsense, including the romance plots that alternate between being trashy or boring (or both). At least this takes the drama off the table so we can focus on world building. The X-Men as a whole seem healthier sex wise than they ever have before just by being open and not being dicks to each other.



She's snarkier than Jean, but I'm not seeing how that isn't just business as usual for them.

EDIT: and of course Jean still snarks back at her in a good natured way, voices concerns for the morality of their space mission in HOX, tries to get Monet to come with her because she doesn't want her to die even with resurrection protocols in place, and is the first to step down from the Council when she disagrees with their inaction. Plus has the history and character to have the clout to say the "to me my X-Men" line. I want MORE, but it doesn't seem to be lacking compared to Emma who appears even less.

She is in character, snark and pompous.

This!!!


Emma and Jean are no where near one another when it comes to meaningful usage in this era, everything from Emma's roll out to how Hickman has re-established Emma in his era has been great. All the previous years of bs the character suffered he immediately fixed it, and she is presented across titles as powerful, a leader, and and her thoughts and emotions drives the narrative in Marauders. But Hickman has done something else, that many outside of Emma's fans may not realize. He effortless, positioned Emma in this era under her OWN thoughts and actions she is not bound to anyone or anything her ambitions and drives are her own. She entered this era like a BOSS, is being portrayed as someone who greatly cares for her students, and daughters, is a good friend who will go to hell and back to protect her own. But more than that, Emma has always been a peer to Xavier and Magneto, but he's positioned her as their equals and unlike many of the other long tenured "X-men" she in not in that mentor/mentee role she is one of the figureheads of mutantdom. Rarely do women get the focus, attention, or inflection of their male counterparts but Emma has entered an area that few women outside of Storm under Claremont, and Rogue under Carey receive and that's meaningful focus. I can think of 100 different avenues the next writer could easily pick up from this era concerning Emma and run with it. She's a businesswoman, council member, mutants rights activist, a teacher, a friend/confidant, and she is in a space related to the narrative that few others outside of Logan receive. She is in that special area where not only do writers WANT to write her, their inspired to write about her because of the unique and interesting circumstances she is thrust into.


Which brings us to Jean, often times readers bring up things like her being a former council member or X-force and the only questions I ask are? Between joining the council and leaving what has changed about Jean, what development did she receive directly related to her tenure on the council, what were the consequences? There were none, it is highlighted even moreso when you realize Scott didn't have to give up or lose ANYTHING. He's still the Captain Commander and he'll be joining the new X-men team with all his development intact. Heck even X-force which has been good to Jean has wrapped up her story completely, no big conflict no real changes. She left the same way she started the team, and guess a conversation can be had about her protecting her morals. But is that really the kind of story that excites readers or make them want to know more about her? I know I'm probably simplifying things more than they are but what are Jean's own thoughts, what does she even think of Krakoa? I've seen some state well Scott isn't any better off, but my confusion is panel time doesn't mean development. Scott has felt like himself or at least as close to it as Hickman can get. We know the relationship between him and Logan in this era, we know the depths he'll go to to save his children, or to protect them. We feel the fatherly relationships between Mags/Xavier and Scott their like proud dads rooting him on and supporting his decisions even when they don't agree. We seen both his relationships with his brothers and both are unique and different but he loves them both all the same.

Same with the mission, Scott is the guy who gets things done but can also be very flirty, he is very familiar and warm to his subordinates. We've even seen Scott when he's relaxed and lounging around, I know his reduce attention is striking for some but Scott feels like a person to me. Even in X-force Jean doesn't have any meaningful relationships outside of Logan and her "hate" for Beast, none of which pushes the narrative forward as Beast is continuously left up to his own devices. But the biggest thing for me, is Xavier and Storm, a father figure and sister died and nearly died and Jean while was directly involved in both stories, neither had real stakes for her and how she feels about them. No follow up on resurrecting Xavier, something if Emma did would have lasting effects at least across other books, nor was she even involved in the rescue mission to save Storm's life. I mean has she even talked to either of them in the last two years in a meaningful capacity outside of the issues they were dead or dying in? And this is all without mentioning her lack of a relationship with any of her friends or either of her children as we only witness them interact when Scott is around and from his perspective.



END OF RANT lol

[mike7171]

Has anyone read X-Men#18, the part where Cecilia reyes makes a conclusion about the effects of the resurrection? Where resurrected mutants surpass original power levels?
Am just hopeful with Jean co-leading the X-Men, that she gets to show-off some off these? Probably, bringing back the siphoning powers? Being an Omega level already, just wondering how the resurrection impacts them in terms of power levels. Since Omega Levels already does not have limits.

Or Omega Level is the limit, and every Alpha/Beta will just eventually be Omega? Maybe Jean will end up being Omega Level TK as well? Who knows.

[Rang10]

Has anyone read X-Men#18, the part where Cecilia reyes makes a conclusion about the effects of the resurrection? Where resurrected mutants surpass original power levels?
Am just hopeful with Jean co-leading the X-Men, that she gets to show-off some off these? Probably, bringing back the siphoning powers? Being an Omega level already, just wondering how the resurrection impacts them in terms of power levels. Since Omega Levels already does not have limits.

Or Omega Level is the limit, and every Alpha/Beta will just eventually be Omega? Maybe Jean will end up being Omega Level TK as well? Who knows.

Omega mean limitless potential. My guess is that she probably is stronger after dying many times since Krakoa is formed