Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[Mercury]

Yeah, I agree.
In comics and specially that era "implied" usually means doing it imo. Even now stuff like Spider-man blue technically "implies" but we all know it happened. I mean I think it's brave to commit fully, saying he's didn't do anything physically absolves him a teeny-tiny bit.I'd rather they go all the way with it and how Jean coped with it.

In my opinion, the effects of what was done to Jean - her psyche, that is, which was bonded with the clone the Phoenix Force created for her - should be further explored. The perpetrations are clear: she was psychically drugged, penetrated, and controlled. However, claiming that all that was done to her amounted to tapping into her “deepest, darkest desires” doesn’t explain her subsequent reactions once she broke free from Mastermind’s and Emma’s control. It also doesn’t explain the pain and great sadness Ororo notes.

Damn this thread really rocketed my respect and liking of Jean. I did like her but not nearly this much, even read her solo w/ teen Jean because of this thread.

I am beyond thrilled that your respect and fondness for Jean have "rocketed" due to this thread. The narcissist in me hopes I've played a "teeny-tiny" part in that

Interpretation is entirely up to the reader.
The fact that you view her characterisation through the lens of your own personal experiences, valid as that is, does not mean it's the ONLY, or even TRUEST interpretation and that others are "wrong" for "not seeing it" or having their own understanding that is personal to them. It's okies if you and like-minded individuals opine on what you think the story is but...don't act as though you all are some absolutely authority and everyone else is not or too blind and stupid to see or understand what they're reading.

Let me make a few things clear: I have not implied nor do I think that I am an "absolute authority" on Jean Grey nor that those who don't view what she endured during the Dark Phoenix Saga as I do are "too blind and stupid to see or understand what they're reading." Those are your words and assumptions, not mine. For all I know, writers haven’t wanted to delve deeper into the abuses she endured because it makes them uncomfortable or because it taints their favorite characters.

Now, you have made a valid point regarding interpretation. However, here's what's not up for interpretation: Jean's psyche and, as a result, body and personal autonomy were violated by Mastermind and Emma Frost, who both implanted lies, illusions, and sordid suggestions into her mind which resulted in her exhibiting uncharacteristic behavior and, eventually, in her emotional breakdown. She was both controlled and enslaved. The only real-life violations I can equate these to are being drugged and, if not raped, molested. There are well-documented and proven psychological ramifications to such perpetrations. I’m sorry, but I refuse to brush those ramifications off. It’s also important to note, as I have before, that victims of rape and molestation have reported being plagued by guilt and shame as a result of feeling pleasure while they were being sexually abused. Does that mean they had a deep, dark desire to be raped or molested?

In the panel I posted a page or two back, Ororo notes, "There is no joy - no love - in Dark Phoenix. I sense pain, great sadness - and an awful, all-consuming lust." This pretty much says it all regarding Jean’s mental state. (Why would a cosmic force feel pain and sadness?) Furthermore, in the panels Grinning Soul posted above, Mastermind admits, “I’ve lost my telepathic tap on Jean’s mind. That means she must have broken my control.” Control is definitely the operative word here. Even Jean confirms that she was under his, and Emma’s, control when she says, “Instead of enslaving me forever, you shocked me awake. You set me free.”

Now, we can interpret who is the “me” speaking. Is it Jean, the Phoenix Force, a combination of the two, i.e., her pain and rage and its wrath and propensity to destroy what is defective and deficient? In either case, what was done to Jean was abusive and traumatic, and that is supported by what’s on-panel.

I think that the fact that Jean underwent through abuse, grooming and loss of body/mind autonomy is not just an interpretation, it is what it happened. And I agree with Mercury when talking about people who misinterprets the Dark Phoenix Saga, because many of them just see it as "Jean goes nuts because she lost control of the Phoenix" overlooking the trauma behind the transformation of Phoenix to Dark Phoenix (something that is canon and in panel), including comic writers.

Bless you.

Let me drop this here: Jean as Phoenix became wildly popular, too popular to cc, who wanted (and expected) Wolverine to be the main star of the book. By the end of the Shi'ar story, it was known that Phoenix was more popular than all of the x-men combined. cc started to change Jean and Phoenix at that point, as is evidenced in the forthcoming stories. Jean became weak, she could not control her power, had dark lusts, etc and finally became evil as Dark Phoenix. They had Phoenix kill millions of innocents and then had Jean pay the ultimate price. Just awful.

Correction: It was John Byrne who was displeased with Jean overshadowing and becoming more popular than the team. Jean is one of Claremont’s favorite characters, if not his favorite. He wanted to continue to explore her conversion into the Phoenix.

I certainly wouldn't put it past Mastermind to have gone beyond mental violations with Jean...he even attempted to have The Blob sexually assault Jean by making an illusion that Blob was Scott. And Byrne has Jason make a clear reference to what would eventually happen, that it would take a long term strategy for an illusion of his to best a telepath (also, Emma's mindtap device)

Jesus.

Also, a Twitter mutual shared these with me:





From https://twitter.com/mymonsterischic/...3322726248448:

@mymonsterischic: you heard of "Kitty Pryde saying the n-word," now get ready for...

Jean Grey's participation in Mastermind's illusion that he created to seduce her (/Phoenix): a 1700's-era antebellum plantation where Storm is a slave

I have no comment at the moment.

[PyroFN]

I think the misinterpretation of Jean’s dark desires comes from the misinterpreting the moments where Jean struggles with a lust for power.

[Phoenixx9]

Correction: It was John Byrne who was displeased with Jean overshadowing and becoming more popular than the team. Jean is one of Claremont’s favorite characters, if not his favorite. He wanted to continue to explore her conversion into the Phoenix.

You are correct. I forgot that with issue #114, john byrne became co-writer as well as penciling. (It was right at that time that the stories started to get negative with Jean and Phoenix.)

I think the misinterpretation of Jean’s dark desires comes from the misinterpreting the moments where Jean struggles with a lust for power.

Beautiful Jean / Phoenix imagery! From where are these taken?

[Mercury]

I think the misinterpretation of Jean’s dark desires comes from the misinterpreting the moments where Jean struggles with a lust for power.

These moments were published after the Dark Phoenix Saga concluded and, I believe, post-retcon. They also don't indicate that she was a repressed racist nor that she desired to be violated to the degree that she was.

[Grinning Soul]

I think the misinterpretation of Jean’s dark desires comes from the misinterpreting the moments where Jean struggles with a lust for power.

Exactly, PyroFN. The dark side of the human soul is at the core of the DPS. But that doesn't mean that Jean secretly wanted to kill people or own and mistreat slaves. That was part of the manipulation. The goal was to strip her of her morals so she could be used by the Hellfire Club, with Mastermind as her handler. The illusions were created to expose her to the role or a killer, an oppressor, etc... to break her and re-mold her. It would have been devastating if it was inflicted on her psyche, but it wasn't just her psyche that was being affected. It was also the Jean/Phoenix entity's psyche, reacting to everything in a much heightened state.

But he created those illusions. Not Jean.

[PyroFN]

Beautiful Jean / Phoenix imagery! From where are these taken?

Classic X-Men. The first 2 are from issue 21, but I forget where the last one is from. Possibly issue 14?

These moments were published after the Dark Phoenix Saga concluded and, I believe, post-retcon. They also don't indicate that she was a repressed racist nor that she desired to be violated to the degree that she was.

True, but they would still be available to Leah. It’s not like Leah was reading the Dark Phoenix Saga exactly around the time the comics were first released…..at least, I don’t think she is that old.

I said they were misinterpreted as well. The sheer fact they are mentioning Jean has a dark side. Not that they are insinuating Jean is racist. I think people are jumping the gun on trying to figure out what Jean’s dark side is.

Exactly, PyroFN. The dark side of the human soul is at the core of the DPS. But that doesn't mean that Jean secretly wanted to kill people or own and mistreat slaves. That was part of the manipulation. The goal was to strip her of her morals so she could be used by the Hellfire Club, with Mastermind as her handler. The illusions were created to expose her to the role or a killer, an oppressor, etc... to break her and re-mold her. It would have been devastating if it was inflicted on her psyche, but it wasn't just her psyche that was being affected. It was also the Jean/Phoenix entity's psyche, reacting to everything in a much heightened state.

But he created those illusions. Not Jean.

Exactly. I think they misinterpret Wyngarde introducing those elements as things Jean had thought about.

[Phoenixx9]

Classic X-Men. The first 2 are from issue 21, but I forget where the last one is from. Possibly issue 14?

Thank you so much.

[Grinning Soul]

Exactly. I think they misinterpret Wyngarde introducing those elements as things Jean had thought about.

Yep. I don't know where they get this idea. How would Jason even know Jean's darkest desires? He brags about knowing her well, but that's what it is: it's his bragging. He's not a telepath. He doesn't *actually* know.

He was exposing her to dark stuff, slowly breaking her as she bought more and more into the believe that she was living someone's life.

But some people will believe what they will and, unfortunately, that includes writers. We can only hope Jean never lands in Leah's hands on an ongoing book.

[Mercury]

Exactly. I think they misinterpret Wyngarde introducing those elements as things Jean had thought about.

And that is largely due to the fact that his and Emma's abuses against Jean and their very real aftereffects are not properly acknowledged, while Jean's "dark desires" are constantly underscored.

I think that the fact that Jean underwent [...] abuse, grooming, and loss of body/mind autonomy is not just an interpretation...

Some people really seem to cling to the belief that it is.

[ExodusCloak]

I think the misinterpretation of Jean’s dark desires comes from the misinterpreting the moments where Jean struggles with a lust for power.

The scan I think Leah is referring to is from the DPS when Jean is in the Club in the issue where Dazzler Debuts and she herself comments on her attraction to some very dark thoughts or something a long those lines.

Xaviers yang was a paedophile and a rapist in Micronauts...Oh and he committed Xenocide. So I don't know why Claremont thought Every ones Yang was really twisted I mean there's dark thoughts and then there's dark dark thoughts

[Tank]

Jean in FRONT LEADING the MEN towards the Avengers. We LOVE to see it!!

This is Leah writing so while the art is beautiful, her dialogue will be: “I cant read their thoughts. Can one of you help me go over there and figure out what’s going on?”

[Mercury]

The scan I think Leah is referring to is from the DPS when Jean is in the Club in the issue where Dazzler Debuts and she herself comments on her attraction to some very dark thoughts or something a long those lines.

Xaviers yang was a paedophile and a rapist in Micronauts...Oh and he committed Xenocide. So I don't know why Claremont thought Every ones Yang was really twisted I mean there's dark thoughts and then there's dark dark thoughts

Yes, I remember that moment. I think we have all felt an "attraction to some very dark thoughts." But, as Jung noted, the shadow is real, vast, and unknown.

I have no problem admitting that Jean has a shadow side and her own repressed desires, as do most people. However, I have a problem assuming that we know what those desires are when Claremont never specifies them. I am especially troubled by the notion that we can assume what those desires are when one considers that Jean was in the process of being psychically violated by a telepath and an illusionist for months (over a year?) with the explicit intent of contorting and implanting depraved falsities into her psyche. Not to mention the fact that Jean's psyche was already in a compromised state, having been transferred to a clone and bonded with the Phoenix Force. How can one deduce what Jean's desires are from such psychic entanglement?

(Side note: While some argue that Emma manipulated Scott into carrying on a psychic affair with her, I feel his willingness to subject himself to her seductions is a perfect example of someone truly acting on their deepest, darkest desires.)

In the panels Grinning Soul posted, Jean not only balks at the false memories and fantasies implanted in her mind but she is also confused by them and aware of their depravity. (She reacts the same way in other panels, too.) She is both pained and disturbed. Of course, she would be; she is being victimized. In another panel they posted, Mastermind also admits to having had "control" over Jean, which speaks for itself. This is all compounded by the fact that, ultimately, the Phoenix Force is in control. If we want to consider the retcon all the way, the Phoenix Force convinced itself that it was Jean. As Captain America notes, "[It was] something that thought it was you. Something that later turned out to be the living embodiment of pure evil... It called itself Phoenix, and it was well on its way to destroying us all until Jean Grey defeated it."



Moments later, Sue Storm notes, "Your inner self could not be suppressed once the Phoenix had taken it on. You gave it your humanity, Jean. You gave it a soul," which implies that Jean's inner self was not what Mastermind and Emma Frost brought out, but, in the end, precisely what defeated them and the Phoenix Force, despite the trauma she had endured since attempting to save the space shuttle. Captain America adds, "And, in the last moments, as it hovered between light and darkness [which the Phoenix Force encompasses, along with death and rebirth], up there on the Moon, that's what made the difference. Because there's no force in the universe that can suppress the splendor of the human spirit. And it was that spirit, even in duplicate form, that was enough to defeat the evil power of the Phoenix."

[Peanutsinspace]

oh wow. your marvel girl looks quite different (better!). Where did you get her face from? She also looks like she can stand on her own. have you changed her legs?

Oof, I'm so late so apologies for not answering you. I sculpted new hair and touched up her face, painted her eyes, lips, lashes and added some blush.

I used White Rabbit thighs and the lower legs of the Marvel Girl figure and cut the skirt so she could stand/pose better.

So sorry for the late response!!

On a more slightly on topic note, I pull this out from time to time but it's always a fascinating read. A series of interviews with Claremont, Cockrum and Byrne about Jean's transformation into Phoenix. A lot of this is included in Phoenix: The Untold Story but it's nicely and concisely presented here. Enjoy the read!

http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...ad-to-die.html

http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...-x-factor.html

[Mercury]

On a more slightly on topic note, I pull this out from time to time but it's always a fascinating read. A series of interviews with Claremont, Cockrum and Byrne about Jean's transformation into Phoenix. A lot of this is included in Phoenix: The Untold Story but it's nicely and concisely presented here. Enjoy the read!

http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...ad-to-die.html

http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...-x-factor.html

Thank you for posting this, love. I never get tired of reading it and it's a wonderful palette cleanser. Sadly, they don't discuss what was done to Jean by Mastermind and Emma. Nonetheless, it's a fascinating read.

Excerpt:

Then X-Men #101 started with Jean Grey having become Phoenix. The closer circumstances surrounding the rebirth were revealed in X-Men #125 in 1979: “Her body was consumed by the intense radiation. But her mind refused to die. Driven by her love for Scott Summers, she achived her full potential as a psi – becoming, briefly, an entity of pure thought before finally reforming as Phoenix.”

“We agonized over what the hell she did,” Cockrum revealed in The X-Men Companion. “It took us a long time to figure out exactly what she did, so we left her in the hospital for several issues, while we thought about it. It started out being an enormous upgrading of what she already did. So powerful that nobody could cope with it.”

“Phoenix is actually Marvel Girl at her ultimate extent,” Chris Claremont explained to The Comics Journal. “Phoenix in X-Men #108 (1977), when she saved the universe, was Jean Grey achieving her fullest potential as an entity.”

“Our intent was to create an X-Men analog, if you will, to Thor – someone who was essentially the first female cosmic hero,” Claremont revealed in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “We thought at the time that we could integrate her into the book as well as Thor had been integrated into the Avengers. The problem with that is that it grew out of the synthesis between Dave and me. The fact that we had, in a sense, created her gave me a degree of involvement that (artist John Byrne) didn’t have, coming in seven issues later.”

Editorial resistance to Phoenix
“When we first introduced Phoenix, we wanted her to fight Thor or the Silver Surfer, but (new Editor-In-Chief) Jim Shooter wouldn’t allow it,” Cockrum told Comic Creators On X-Men. “He said no female is going to beat Thor or the Silver Surfer. We kind of sneaked around him by sending her up against Firelord, who had once fought Thor to a standstill. We established her power levels that way.”

“Dave and I kind of liked the idea that we had a female character who was cosmic. No one else did,” Claremont revealed in The Comics Journal. “Len Wein objected strenuously to our using Firelord if Phoenix beat him. We couldn’t have a lady character who’s cosmic, because – well, his argument was that it made the rest of the X-Men superfluous. We got around it by having the fight be a draw.”

“One of the storylines that Dave and I discussed was the possibility of turning her into a power junkie,” Claremont told The X-Men Companion. “The idea was that the more power she used, the more she wanted; the more she wanted, the more she got; the more she got, the more out of control it got. And she was scared, because she didn’t think she was ready for it, so she would deliberately not use her power, and then we’d deliberately put the X-Men in situations where they had to use her power. I wanted to give Jean an internal conflict, through which she could constantly demonstrate her heroic nature by overcoming it.”

“Actually, when we introduced Phoenix I don’t think we intended for her to keep super cosmic powers, because the rest of the group becomes superfluous then,” Cockrum told The X-Men Companion. “Chris had said something about using the power to save the universe in X-Men #108 (in 1977), but that wiped it to such a degree that it reduced her powers. And after that, theoretically, she was not supposed to be that super-cosmic person.”

Inventing rationale
“So anyway, we were told, Dave and I, that Phoenix could not be cosmic,” Claremont said in The Comics Journal. “And when the editor passes down an edict, you’re stuck with it. We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine. Now I had to think of a rationale.”

“The potential to become Phoenix is still within Jean. But without the necessary increase in her awareness, in her perception. If her consciousness, her soul, whatever, is not enlightened – if her consciousness is not cosmic, then she can’t handle the power. It’s like Doctor Strange could not become the Sorcerer Supreme until he had achieved a certain psychic and emotional balance, or awareness. Neither can Jean. She’ll burn herself out, she’ll be warped, twisted, turned into an evil person. Ergo, what happened was her mind shut her down, as a safety mechanism. To prevent her from hurting herself, it just dropped a wall down.”

Claremont’s rationale for the cutback of Jean Grey’s powers was used in X-Men #125 in 1979. Professor Xavier’s colleague, Dr. Moira MacTaggert examined Jean Grey and reached the conclusion that if Jean Grey was once again to reach her full potential, as she did in X-Men #108 while saving the universe, and gain access to the powers that still existed inside her, she could become something akin to a god.

The decision to turn Phoenix bad
Phoenix officially rejoined the X-Men in issue #110 in 1978, but John Byrne, who had taken over as X-Men artist from Dave Cockrum with X-Men #108, didn’t share Cockrum and Claremont’s enthusiasm for the Phoenix character. “I agitated to get her out of the book as quickly as possible – which is what we did,” he admitted in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “I didn’t like Phoenix since the word go. Because she instantly made the rest of the X-Men fifth wheels, you know? And she wasn’t even an X-Man.”

”Much as I would prefer to have it different – and this is why Phoenix isn’t on the cover or in the title logo – is that in the opinion of (X-Men editor) Roger Stern and John Byrne, she isn’t an X-Man,” Claremont revealed in The Comics Journal.

“John liked Jean, he did not like Phoenix,” Claremont added in The X-Men Companion. “John’s antipathy toward Phoenix as a character was one of the primary motivations behind the entire decision to begin a Dark Phoenix storyline and get rid of her, or at least change her in such a way that she could not remain on the team as Phoenix.”

The original ideas for the fate of Phoenix
“The original intent to turn her into a bad villain got lost for me about two-thirds of the way into the story when I suddenly started thinking, “We’re doing this to Jean Grey with whom I’ve always been deeply involved,”” John Byrne confessed in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “My whole thought was, “Make Phoenix evil and then suck Phoenix out of Jean.””

“I wanted to depower her totally,” Byrne continued. “Chris had said that she manifested her power when she was about ten, so I had said that the ideal thing would be to have had Xavier turn her brain back, basically, till she was nine years old. Then, in the scenario that I had envisioned, the Phoenix, still an evil force, would have been kind of like this Bogey-Man that would pop out every once in a while.”

“This is a scene that I pictured in my mind: Jean, now essentially retarded and living with her parents is taken by her parents into town to see, just to date ourselves, “The Cat From Outer Space” was the movie I kept thinking of. Two or three punks see her wandering by herself while her parents are buying the tickets and escort her into an alleyway. There’s a brief scuffle and from the alley comes this horrendous flash which is the Phoenix out loose again. And we have to depower her again. So Phoenix would pop out as a sort of “Jekyll and Hyde” thing.”

“What Chris had suggested was that Phoenix would apparently be destroyed in the battle on the moon and that three or four issues later, she would turn up as Jean back at her old apartment, saying, “Here I am, I’m back, leave me alone, I don’t want to talk about it, I don’t want to hear about it, I’m just going to live my life.” We sort of synthesized those ideas, which bubbled down into that we were going to depower her, but she was essentially going to be Jean and was going to live her life and wasn’t going to be nine years old.”

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Jean Grey has been making the sexists mad for decades. You love to see it.

"No female is going to beat Thor!" Lmao I imagine guy must have lost his **** when they gave Jane the hammer.

And Byrne...lol one of the worst to this day. He has his grievances with more kinds of people than just powerful females.